Forums » Pantheon Classes

CC Class Competition?

    • 626 posts
    July 21, 2017 10:06 AM PDT

    I would love to see a healthy competition for best CC Class. Instead of just making it so Enchanters CC is better than everyone else I would love to see another class like a Necromancer for example be on par with Enchanters in CC. Sure Necro's have had CC abilities but normally those abilities include "Fear" and targets running away. I on the other hand would love to see "Fear" abilities work more like Mez. I believe this would cause Necro's and Chanters to be about equal in CC abilities, and allow for more diverse groups to be successful. 

     

    Here is my comparison: 

    Enchanters: Mez, Direct Damage spells, some group buffs like "Clarity" and such. 

    - possible type of pet like in EQ

    Necromancers: Fear, DoT Spells, some group benefits like summon corpse and such. 

    - possible type of pet like in EQ

     

    The big difference in my mind is the "Fear vs Mez". In the Past Mez has held targets in place while Fear casues them to run. If Fear caused a "Cripple" effect that caused targets to became "Crippled" in Fear this would act just like Mez (broken by damage). I believe this would be a huge improvement from games in the past where Enchanters CC were so powerful you couldn't not have one. This will also allow more diverse team comps to be more successful on Avg. 

    Again using EQ to compare these classes as we don't have a lot on them just yet, but I assume they will be much like EQ was. 

     

    PS - This will also limit a Nercomancer's Soloing abilities as well. If their Fear cripples targets, but the cripple acts like Mez and is broken with damage. Meaning Nercromancers will not only be a better CC Class, but also need a group more then in the past. 

     

    Edit: You could also have Mobs that are resistant to Fear or resistant to Mez which would mean you might need a Necro for CC instead of an Enchanter. Just some thoughts and again I'm mainly looking for a way to allow more group comp's to be successful without having to have an enchanter in every group. 


    This post was edited by Reignborn at July 21, 2017 10:09 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    July 21, 2017 10:45 AM PDT

    I'm unconvinced that enchanters/CC will be required in every group as it certainly wasn't the case in EQ, they'd help a lot when accidents happened but were not necessary. It's guessed that Bard will also be in the CC role, another class that is a boon to groups but I doubt will be necessary. You could very often get around having CC specific classes in your group by use of other classes utility spells like root, or sending a pet to temporarily hold, filling the slot with an off-tank or secondary healer. 

     

    That said I had the same thought when looking at the class list in terms of necromancer and the lack of equal CC representation for a game claiming a quaternity. I imagine necro could have a couple lines of fear, the traditional fleeing mob kind as well as a "paralyzing fear" line that is more just a mez that breaks when the mob is hit as well as having a pet that could pinch tank. Of the CC though I'd imagine they would be the highest damage and least group buff utility. 

    • 626 posts
    July 21, 2017 11:44 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I'm unconvinced that enchanters/CC will be required in every group as it certainly wasn't the case in EQ, they'd help a lot when accidents happened but were not necessary. It's guessed that Bard will also be in the CC role, another class that is a boon to groups but I doubt will be necessary. You could very often get around having CC specific classes in your group by use of other classes utility spells like root, or sending a pet to temporarily hold, filling the slot with an off-tank or secondary healer. 

     

    That said I had the same thought when looking at the class list in terms of necromancer and the lack of equal CC representation for a game claiming a quaternity. I imagine necro could have a couple lines of fear, the traditional fleeing mob kind as well as a "paralyzing fear" line that is more just a mez that breaks when the mob is hit as well as having a pet that could pinch tank. Of the CC though I'd imagine they would be the highest damage and least group buff utility. 

     

    Well said, and I agree. Maybe not 100% needed in groups, but just like a Monk pulling. They can be extermely useful for a group, and I'd love to see at least one other class that provides a close comparison in ability to perform a certain task. I'm right there with you though. Allow Nerco's to put out a little more DPS than other classes, but least group buff ability. I think that would provide a nice balance. 

     

    Also on a side note I did state one reason for not going for the running fears is because I believe it provides little benefit while in group, and encourages solo play more than other classes. I understand its a staple of Necro's in the past, but just thinking if their Fear acted more like Mez and was broken with Damage then DoT+Fear Soloing wouldn't be possible. Not preventing them from soloing, but making it harder is all :). I know a lot may not like that, but for me I like the idea of it. 

    • 2752 posts
    July 21, 2017 3:30 PM PDT

    Either way it is probably going to be a difficult class to design. Will they be CC? Heavily pet focused? DoT focused? Heavy debuff focused?

     

    A lot of things fall under the purview of a necromancer but I am kind of hoping they ultimately revolve around undead pets, for what is a necromancer without raising and controlling the dead? I'm now thinking maybe the necro has long term but ultimately middling-low damage DoTs that are more used for the debuffs attached to them and CC but the brunt of his damage abilities come from the pet.


    This post was edited by Iksar at July 21, 2017 3:32 PM PDT
    • 189 posts
    July 22, 2017 6:34 AM PDT

    As someone who wants to main an enchanter, I really don't mind sharing the CC role. As long as my class is unique in their own way (Clarity is great, but if thats the only thing, no one is going to want me in group :\)

    I think fearing an enemy is quite dangerous if you're in a group dungeon. That mob could run into another mob and draw aggro right away, could it not? Although I still like fear, because if I were to be out soloing or running around and grabbed one too many mobs, I would just fear and continue on my day.

    Good thing about 6 people in a group is you have room for 4 dps of sorts. One that may focus on CCing? One for extra buffs? Pure dps. You'll probably be able to mess around a lot with the variety of the kind of group you make with the many classes we will have at launch. My only hope is there isn't one specific group of classes that just completely out plays others. Bard is great for buffs, but if he can't do damage or only has one CC, maybe you'll need another CC class with a bit of damage. Maybe you only have 3 major dps classes in group because that's all you can find. Knowing this you'll need a good healer and probably an Enchanter so you can keep feeding them mana and you're the CCer. Or maybe they necro pet can offtank certain mobs (not all because that would be way too overpowered) But only you are allowed to heal your pet. So then you might need a necro and enchanter in a group. To keep feeding mana.

    I hope for variety like mentioned above, because if there isn't, some people may have a hard time finding groups. I think they mentioned they want to focus on these classes significantly to make them each unique and balance them all out. But we haven't gotten in game yet, so there's always that possibility someone finds something rather OP about a specific class.

    Also, might I remind you, they are aiming to add Necromancer after everything else if they have the time and resources, but they may not get to Necro and bard until after the game has launched :\


    This post was edited by fancy at July 22, 2017 6:42 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    July 23, 2017 10:25 AM PDT
    On the Wiki Summoner has a secondary CC role.

    Since Necro and Bard may not make launch. I am wondering how their CC could/would work.

    In VG fear and stuns were broken by damage so if that is a possibility that opens up afew ways it could be used similar to mez for CC.

    Fear making things run away never really made a good deal of sense to me, it's more likely to delay reaction time and increase hesitation, than be outright run in terror, atleast in my mind.

    It also seems like it would be magically similar to mesmerizing. Both would be mind altering and psychotropic affecting similar aspects of the opponents psyche (subject to similar rules?).

    Atleast that's my logic. IDK.

    I guess it depends on how mesmerize works, is it outright sleep/hypnotism? Is it just mentally distracting? Is it just subtle mind control (psionic)?


    • 2886 posts
    July 23, 2017 1:24 PM PDT

    Sunmistress said: On the Wiki Summoner has a secondary CC role. Since Necro and Bard may not make launch. I am wondering how their CC could/would work. In VG fear and stuns were broken by damage so if that is a possibility that opens up afew ways it could be used similar to mez for CC. Fear making things run away never really made a good deal of sense to me, it's more likely to delay reaction time and increase hesitation, than be outright run in terror, atleast in my mind. It also seems like it would be magically similar to mesmerizing. Both would be mind altering and psychotropic affecting similar aspects of the opponents psyche (subject to similar rules?). Atleast that's my logic. IDK. I guess it depends on how mesmerize works, is it outright sleep/hypnotism? Is it just mentally distracting? Is it just subtle mind control (psionic)?

    I'm guessing it just has something to do with the part of the class description that says Summoners can summon "barricades." That would lend itself more toward "encounter control," (as Joppa would call it) rather than strict crowd control. For example, in tunnels or hallways, a Summoner could use barricades to zone out certain areas and manipulate the battlefield itself to block out creatures, which essentially accomplishes the same thing. But it may not be as universally effective as traditional crowd control like stuns and mesmerize, especially in open areas.

    • 626 posts
    July 25, 2017 9:00 AM PDT

    fancy said:

    Also, might I remind you, they are aiming to add Necromancer after everything else if they have the time and resources, but they may not get to Necro and bard until after the game has launched :\

     

    No need to remind me they have been very clear for the last year+ the Necromancer and Bards will be post launch, but this is exactly why we should talk through this now before they start the design of the class and abilities. I know they most likely have a good idea of how they want the classes to look and feel, but I'm just trying to say I would like to see the Necromancer changed slightly to make it more Group friendly vs Solo Friendly. In past MMO's Necro's have been masters at the Solo Game more so then most other classes, so throwing some thoughts around on how to change that a little is all. 

     

    Iksar said:

    Either way it is probably going to be a difficult class to design. Will they be CC? Heavily pet focused? DoT focused? Heavy debuff focused?

     

    A lot of things fall under the purview of a necromancer but I am kind of hoping they ultimately revolve around undead pets, for what is a necromancer without raising and controlling the dead? I'm now thinking maybe the necro has long term but ultimately middling-low damage DoTs that are more used for the debuffs attached to them and CC but the brunt of his damage abilities come from the pet.

     

    I'm a huge fan of Pets and wouldn't mind this as well, but as you stated the class will be difficult to design for sure. Making a pet focused class can easily lead into an OP solo class so very tricky, but excited to see what they do with Necro's. 

    • 323 posts
    July 25, 2017 7:04 PM PDT

    I was under the impression that Druids may also have some meaningful CC abilities. I can't remember the basis for that impression.  I think it was suggested in one of the streams.  A combination of snare, root, and sleep(?) would be effective in many situations. Even in EQ1 druids had a pretty high skill ceiling and reasonably useful CC with all of the rooting, healing and kiting they could do, sometimes even indoors. 

    Also, in the first few expacs of EQ1, a shaman slow was better than a Mez in many situations.  Once KEI was introduced into the game (with up to a 4-hour duration), a shaman was almost always preferable to an enchanter, unless the enchanter was charming mobs to add dps. I think Slow could potentially count as a kind of crowd control.

    I think rogues are also going to have some CC abilities, right? Sap, blind, incapacitate type abilities.

    In other words, even without Necros and Bards, there may be some meaningful CC in the current class lineup, even if the enchanter comes out as the best *pure* CC class.  A rogue and a shaman, or a rogue and a summoner, might have better CC combined than an enchanter, plus the benefit of greater dps. For this reason I'm a bit wary of choosing an Enchanter, although I definitely look forward to playing one to some extent.