Racial and Class EXP penalties be added in.
Thinking back to the early days of EQ1 I remember how awesome it was to see a max level Troll Shadowknight.
I've been thinking that throwing out this system was maybe like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I know it wasn't popular in any way but was it one of those things that added to the magic of early EQ1 ?
In a game that has a "Mentoring" system so that you could always play with your friends no matter the level could exp throttling on some character class combos have the effect of making them more unique in the world thus making them more appealing to a certain type of person ?
I'm sure there are a lot of cons to a system like this but every time a little thing like this went away a little bit of that original EQ magic was lost imo.
Personally I like the idea of a harder race/class combo as I don't really tend to make alt characters.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Honestly, I don't like the idea that my choice in race might impact my progression. Reason being is that maybe a class like Paladin, which is very restricted in race options, would be heavily penalized simply because I have poor raceial options. Race should be purely cosmetic, or at the least provide bonuses that are fairly trivial to progression. Ultra Vision, Water Breathing, Minor Boon to Magic Resist, etc.
Class xp penalty, only if the classes penalized have a reason for being so. Originally in EQ Hybrids were penalized because they were more versatile. Thing is, they ended up being horribly weak so the penalty was fairly unjustified. Thats why it was later removed. Now if the Hybrids in Pantheon ARE actually "more powerful" than their core classes because they really are more veratile then I might be ok with that, but it would need to be a noticable gain in "power".
As a blanket opinion though, no xp penalty/bonuses.
Mentoring is just a way to reduce your level, stats and gear to that of the person you are trying to help/group with so you can play together at the appropriate level and experience the game's content as it was intended, that is all.
If you are a different race that is KoS in the area that you are fighting in then you will have to be careful and manage that but mentoring has no effect on faction or racial differences.
Mandalorian2K said: I think what the OP meant was that if there were a racial/class penalty, it would be somewhat mitigated by the fact you can mentor. So there's less worry about friends outleveling you due to your race/class choice, when even if they did, they could just mentor down to your level and still group up.
Right, but my comment was aimed at the fact that xp penalties shouldn't be included at all so the point would really be moot.
His comments suggest he wants to see xp penalties. As well as how mentoring would help with that issue. Which would make the penalty pointless. The whole point was to make those classes work harder to keep up with friends, if there is no keep up then who cares?
Building in apenalty and then building a system to negate that penalty makes no sense.
Mandalorian2K said: I think what the OP meant was that if there were a racial/class penalty, it would be somewhat mitigated by the fact you can mentor. So there's less worry about friends outleveling you due to your race/class choice, when even if they did, they could just mentor down to your level and still group up.
Thanks, I didn't articulate this as well as I could have.
Kiz~
kellindil said:Mandalorian2K said: I think what the OP meant was that if there were a racial/class penalty, it would be somewhat mitigated by the fact you can mentor. So there's less worry about friends outleveling you due to your race/class choice, when even if they did, they could just mentor down to your level and still group up.Right, but my comment was aimed at the fact that xp penalties shouldn't be included at all so the point would really be moot.
His comments suggest he wants to see xp penalties. As well as how mentoring would help with that issue. Which would make the penalty pointless. The whole point was to make those classes work harder to keep up with friends, if there is no keep up then who cares?
Building in apenalty and then building a system to negate that penalty makes no sense.
Penalties or Bonus exp for some combinations so people can fine tune their playstyle a bit... If you have trouble normally keeping up with your friends it might be enticing for you to role a Halfling Warrior and get a boost to exp a bit.
Personally instead of a Progeny system where I have to start over or just having a stable of alts characters I like the idea of a race / class combo that might have some advantages but also took longer to level up.
One benefit of a system like this would be that it would help the population spread out over the levels more and not just be congested at end game riding that wave of the initial server push.
Thanks for the response it was definitely food for thought,
Kiz~
kellindil said:Mandalorian2K said: I think what the OP meant was that if there were a racial/class penalty, it would be somewhat mitigated by the fact you can mentor. So there's less worry about friends outleveling you due to your race/class choice, when even if they did, they could just mentor down to your level and still group up.Right, but my comment was aimed at the fact that xp penalties shouldn't be included at all so the point would really be moot.
His comments suggest he wants to see xp penalties. As well as how mentoring would help with that issue. Which would make the penalty pointless. The whole point was to make those classes work harder to keep up with friends, if there is no keep up then who cares?
Building in apenalty and then building a system to negate that penalty makes no sense.
My response was more directed at Kilsin who brought up the KoS part of racials. It seemed there was a misunderstanding of what the OP was trying to say, so I was clarifying his point. I wasn't advocating one way or the other for or against a penalty, so I'm unsure why you felt the need to defend your stance.
Even in a pen and paper game, I bet it would be difficult to prove its value as a mechanic beyond being an arbitrary additional consideration.
I think some specific things probably factor in:
1. DnD isn't a competitive game.
2. DnD isn't played on any where near the scale of an MMO, in terms of simultaneous players. DnD is basically a game of instances within the extended universe. Ultimately, this means that there is a lot less needed to set yourself apart in a DnD session with a handful of participants compared to thousands of people with some desire of individuality in a pool of thousands.
3. I personally don't get even a tenth as invested in my character/identity in a pen and paper game as I do in a 3D game with a physical, graphical avatar that I can project myself on to. However, that is largely a "me" thing and not so much an "every pen and paper thing", so I won't pretend it's as relevant as my first two points.
All in all, a lot of elements of DnD were ported to MMOs on tradition alone. Finding a solid justification for their inclusion would be pretty difficult, I imagine.
Mandalorian2K said: I think what the OP meant was that if there were a racial/class penalty, it would be somewhat mitigated by the fact you can mentor. So there's less worry about friends outleveling you due to your race/class choice, when even if they did, they could just mentor down to your level and still group up.
Thanks Mandalorian! :)
Adjusting my answer accordingly; we don't have any penalties for class/race combos, we don't want to punish anyone for grouping up in our group based game and we will be balancing during testing so that will be a great place to revisit this topic when people can get hands on and see how everything works :)
Just out of curiosity, did you grow up on them?
I personally started playing video games ridiculously early in life, especially MMOs, so it stands to reason that I have an easier time projecting myself onto it as a result of familiarity.
I imagine if I grew up projecting myself onto pen and paper characters it would be more natural to me.
I never understood why people would like to lower their level to play with their friends.
I don't like artificial mechanics (Ways the game is played that is not supported by lore) that change the game like that. It Would-be best just to roll an alt.
This enforces replayablity in different areas of the world and learning new class mechanics which makes players better becuase they know other class roles, and not just their own.
Demostorm said: I never understood why people would like to lower their level to play with their friends I Don't like artificial mechanics Change the game like that. It Would-be best just to roll an alt
What differentiates an "artificial" mechanic from a not-"artificial" mechanic?
Liav said:Just out of curiosity, did you grow up on them?
I personally started playing video games ridiculously early in life, especially MMOs, so it stands to reason that I have an easier time projecting myself onto it as a result of familiarity.
I imagine if I grew up projecting myself onto pen and paper characters it would be more natural to me.
I started on Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Ultima, Zelda, and this 1st person Rpg my dad bought in the late 80's I can't for the life of me remember the name of. Moved to SNES and then Playstation 1/2 later
Graduated to pen and paper sometime in the early/mid 90s and had a DND group that met 4 to 5 times a week.
Said DND group then gravitated to EQ after one of us got into Beta and we moved over, cutting DND sessions down to 3 nights a week.
My forum handle here Is the name of our Cleric in that DND campaign, she and myself (paladin) managed to survive the climactic battle that was supposed to end our campaign and be a TPK. A string of 20's and a wish spell and geas spell later, we somehow miraculously survived an encounter that absolutely should have wrecked us. Leaving the DM fuming. There's more to that story, but trying to keep it short.
Probably the most epic thing I've ever had happen in any game! Since we had been playing that campaign for a good 4 or so years, and those characters were basically extensions of ourselves at that point.Anyways I droned on sorry.
I guess I grew up on Pen and Paper? I just prefer the medium for adventuring, but really they are 2 entirely different experiences.
Demostorm said:I never understood why people would like to lower their level to play with their friends.
I don't like artificial mechanics (Ways the game is played that is not supported by lore) that change the game like that. It Would-be best just to roll an alt.
This enforces replayablity in different areas of the world and learning new class mechanics which makes players better becuase they know other class roles, and not just their own.
At the end of the day, this is a game, not real life. Not everything can be explained by lore. There MUST be some mechanics to facilitate gameplay and/or community interaction that will be artificial to the lore or world. Thats just how it has to be. If we were going to go with realism over everything then we'd need perma death, item degredation, aging, etc. At what point do we stop trying to build a sim and build an enjoyable game?
A mentoring system like whats mentioned is a great way for people who don't want to start alts to still play with friends who show up late to the game or don't have as much time to play. It just makes good sense for the game and the community as a whole. Is it artificial? Sure it is, but so are most of the game mechanics.
Very glad to hear that there will indeed be no penalties for choosing a specific race or class.
Mentoring honestly fits well within the lore of probably most any game. It's entirely likely that veteran adventurers could make/have friends that are much more green and go help them gain experience fighting creatures that aren't as much of a threat to them. They certainly wouldn't get much if any experience/learning if you went out and slaughtered creatures for them, so you go out with them and "pull your punches" (mentor) while they learn how to defeat various creatures.
No experience penalties for races/classes please. It was always awful in EQ, especially since they applied to and brought down the exp of any group you joined as well.
Liav said:Even in a pen and paper game, I bet it would be difficult to prove its value as a mechanic beyond being an arbitrary additional consideration.
I think some specific things probably factor in:
1. DnD isn't a competitive game.
2. DnD isn't played on any where near the scale of an MMO, in terms of simultaneous players. DnD is basically a game of instances within the extended universe. Ultimately, this means that there is a lot less needed to set yourself apart in a DnD session with a handful of participants compared to thousands of people with some desire of individuality in a pool of thousands.
3. I personally don't get even a tenth as invested in my character/identity in a pen and paper game as I do in a 3D game with a physical, graphical avatar that I can project myself on to. However, that is largely a "me" thing and not so much an "every pen and paper thing", so I won't pretend it's as relevant as my first two points.
All in all, a lot of elements of DnD were ported to MMOs on tradition alone. Finding a solid justification for their inclusion would be pretty difficult, I imagine.
lol Obviously you havent played in the kinds of DnD games I have.
1. DnD can be a VERY competitive game. For you it isnt. My friends and I play every week and it can be alot of fun while fighting over loot.
2. You are obviously right.
3. Based on many of your other answers in other threads with how deep you dig into things, the math etc I can see why you prefer a 3D game over pen and paper. I am not saying you dont have an imagination BUT ppl that play pen and paper def need one as its all spelled out for you by the DM and you have to see it in your mind. Nobody is making it for you like in an MMO. In an MMO the game in effect plays the part of the DM. As you said earlier, you have many many more players to make groups with as opposed to being limited to that one group you play with weekly.
As you said alot of elements of DnD were ported to MUDS first, ask Brad about Toril, then to MMOs. The first sort of MMO I played in was Neverwinter Nights that AOL ran back in the day. Shortly after was Ultima Online then for me EQ. They all started with Gygax's rules and just expanded on them.