Reading through some of the old crafting topics, came across a post by Brad discussing the difficulties of making crafting useful. The main difficulty is the competitive nature of dropped vs crafted gear/items. There have been many different attempts to solve this problem... crafted gear has different stats, crafted/dropped items fill different level gaps, crafted gear is one of the best but limited to certain slots, etc.
My main issue with these solutions is they don't solve the inherent problem: crafting and dropped items still compete for the same space. On top of which crafting systems have universally been inferior as a system to dropped/combat (shout out to VG for coming the closest yet). So how to make them less competitive and more integral?
One idea my brother and I were passing about was: Item Efficiency. So the way it would work is an item would have an efficiency level (percentage based or otherwise - doesn't matter). It would start out low and different methods/applications would allow you to increase the efficiency of the item.
Here's an example:
An item starts at 30% efficiency, with a max of 100-110%... and can be improved through the following:
1. Up to 30%: "Fitting" through a crafting profession. The increase would be based on crafting skill and success of the process. VG had a great system where how well you crafted effected the outcome of the item. This would then allow for "fitting" as much as you like to improve the quality up to a max percent.
2. Up to 10% over 100%: "Customiztion" through a crafting profession, but also soulbinds the item. Many games have done this though it always seemed tacked on to me. Here it's a great way to integrate it into a larger system that fits more naturally in the world. Not a huge fan of soulbound items, but this is one method I would approve of.
3. Up to 20%: Practice with the item. The more you use the item (wear it, swing it, drink it, whatever) the more familiar you become with it.
4. Up to 20%: Perception based idea that allows you to understand the item better
5. Up to 20%: Specific locations could help increase item efficiency, making exploring more useful
6. etc.. ad infinitum.
As you can see there could be several methods to improve efficiency and not all of them would be needed to hit that 100% mark. Personally I'd rather they not show the current efficiency of the item so there's no "known" max to what it "should" be. This could also allow some variability in the max efficiency. So it would be possible to have two "legendary" items of the same name but they are quite different in efficiency.
This could also be used for damaging/repair (another method of including somethng I'm not a big fan of) such that:
1. Down by 80%: item damage/degredation.
2. Repair by 80%: crafting or other methods to repair said damaged item
Mostly this idea came up as a way to make crafting useful at all levels and at all times without "competing" for the attention of adventurers over dropped items. I'm sure there are some pitfalls with this idea, and I'm well aware the idea train has sailed... thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
I think there's some good stuff in here. I think crafters being able to modify and improve on crafted and dropped items helps the system stay relevant.
One thing I'm not a fan of is item deterioration, which I believe the team also said they don't support.
Great post Archaean!
If I am understanding the idea correctly, I like it mostly expect that I have never like when items take damage and have to be repaired. (You forget to repair your sword and you are out grinding and poof your sword is uselss and you have to go to town to repair it)
Was think also maybe some items that drop could also be made by a crafter. The crafted item would have a percent of the stats that the dropped item had but could be increased by crafting skill level.
To put it simply, lets say we have a drop that has +10 ac named Bronze Helm. A crafter with just enough skill to create this item could make this item from raw materials and get a +5 ac Bronze Helm (crafted). Now lets say the crafter is a master crafter or some level above min level to craft the item, maybe he could produce a +10 Bronze Helm (crafted) or something inbetween.
The crafter would get between +5 to +10 ac on the item, based on his skill level until he reached master crafter, then he has a chance to get a percentage above. Maybe 10 to 20 percent better item, so he could get a +12 ac Bronze Helm (crafted). The increased item would become soul bound when equiped.
I also like the idea that the crafter could take the dropped item and maybe a special dropped element and with master level could increase the item by the 10 to 20 percent. If the master crafter failed then the item would lose the speical element part of the recipe.
I also like the idea that the items name has the word (crafted) tagged on to it and could add the crafters name in the detailed description of the item.
With the crafers name on items you could have a score board like list that shows the current number of items created at master level that are above the normal stats per person on the server.
Like your idea alot training/use and perception could be fun and maybe "forgotten" knowledge/npc's we can find to get a total of 112% . Go the extra mile for 2% just to show of your dedication, but what will this tought train do to the item level progression as it becomes "grey" before were done ? Any ideas on how to tackle that or will it only be for "end game" i would like to see it work for every level or indiffrent of level's could that be possible?
Sydor said:... One thing I'm not a fan of is item deterioration, which I believe the team also said they don't support. ...
Yeah, I'm not a fan either. There are some older posts that discuss the idea. But I'd be fine without it.
If they do end up doing item deterioration, I hope it's more controlled. Meaning, instead of it happening all the time or when you die, I'd love to see a system based more around "skill". Such that, for instance, certain mob abilities cause item damage. To avoid the damage you have to interrupt, block, dodge, etc. the particular attack. Rewards good gameplay and makes deterioration more meaningful than a gold sink.
Stratoz said:Like your idea alot training/use and perception could be fun and maybe "forgotten" knowledge/npc's we can find to get a total of 112% . Go the extra mile for 2% just to show of your dedication, but what will this tought train do to the item level progression as it becomes "grey" before were done ? Any ideas on how to tackle that or will it only be for "end game" i would like to see it work for every level or indiffrent of level's could that be possible?
Yeah, they could tie it to the skill system in some respect. Your skill in 1hd sword gives you +X% efficiency toward all 1hd swords. Or even starts your "practice" percent at that level. I would encourage the "practice" percent to increase relatively quickly, or maybe a sloped increase would be better so the first 10% are pretty fast and then the increase slows down. Hopefully with slower levelling, this shouldn't be a big issue.
What you are describing is very close to how crafting in DAoC worked. Crafted items in DAoC were generally better gear than dropped items. When you created an item it was assigned a random quality based on your skill and RNG. Each item had slots on it and points assigned. There was a craft that specifically created gems to be slotted into these items that added stats. The higher the quality of item the more stats you can insert. Every piece was customizable for exactly what you wanted. Some dropped items had more stats or stats that couldn't be found on crafted items. These dropped items would be used as a base for building a crafted set around.
Items in the game had durability and would eventually break. You can repair them but they would lose durability each time. Eventually you would have to replace the item. This didn't happen very quickly. In the years I played I only ever had one item completely break on me and it was a fairly low quality item.
It was a wonderfull system that kept crafters relevant for the entire life of the game. Poeple were always looking for crafted items to build a set. Crafters would become known for their quality works. I loved the crafting system and itemization in that game. It kept dropped item and crafting both fairly equal.
Dark Age of Camelot is a perfect example of relevant crafting, as kellindil pointed out. However, there are some subtle reasons why it was so successful.
Being a game centered around PvP allowed for a much broader range of flexibility in terms of gear selection than is usually the case. I've made something along the lines of a hundred templates in DAoC, and the beauty in that is that 10 players could look at the same template and have varying opinions. It can clash with playstyle, or even simply not contain non-negotiable items.
When it comes to PvE though, your choices are limited to a much more finite pool of actions than in PvP. An example being that most raid content is immune to basic forms of CC, because they're extremely powerful and would break much of the game if they were allowed. You can't snare kite Vox, for instance.
I'd love to see a system like spellcrafting (the customization of stats on crafted gear, a crafting profession in and of itself), but I feel like it would have to be adjusted a lot to make up for the deficiencies of PvE content. I've talked a lot on these forums about the meta that will inevitably form and how it is practically impossible to not be able to mathematically arrive at an optimal setup for a given situation, and no amount of situational gear can change that.
This is as opposed to a game like DAoC where the very nature of PvP is much more fluid than PvE, and allows for a lot more choice and personal preference. Do I play my Shadowblade exclusively with a 2H Critical Strike build? Do I rely on Shades of Mist ablative procs? A lot of people considered Shades of Mist non-negotiable for survivability, but I often dropped it for a spell piercing cloak with more utility so I could include Snatchers (bracer that increases RP gain, my personal non-negotiable piece).
This isn't meant to be a criticism, I'd just love to see a system like spellcrafting be tailored in such a way that it could work. This entire post is also a breakdown of ONLY spellcrafting, which is one of several crafting professions. Armorers, Tailors, Weaponsmiths, Fletchers, Alchemists, etc. all played vital roles in the game as well. I don't believe there was a single crafting profession in DAoC that wasn't rewarding.