I think it would be a good idea to have a "Cradle to Grave" social area. Again looking at retired or failed mmo's. Those areas started out full and people running around happy then turned empty. I think it would benefit even the point of massive expansions to have this core social areas that never move. It would help buffer impact of zones becoming empty when new expansions go live.
When the new Commons was put into EQ1, reading patch notes "Triggered" me. The artist was like "I Hope you enjoy the improved zone". It's like my park was bulldozed for condo's and the condo owner drives up in a limo and tosses a little sales booklet "Enjoy your new view lol" and tosses his cig butt out then drives off.
The bulldozers drove off and the tunnel was buried forever....
Instead of developers designating an area, let the players decide for themselves if and where they want such a place. The EC tunnel wasn't designed to be what players used it for and not every server used EC tunnel either. Updating zones in response to improved game engine, graphics or whatnot is always a good idea. I did dislike the entire revamp of the Freeport area because it took away a lot of history but by the time it happened the EC tunnel as the central trading/gathering area was long ago replaced by PoK and the Bazaar.
If nothing else the EC tunnel forced ppl to be more social as you had to interact with others if you wanted to buy or sell anything since there was no auction house in the game. It also forced ppl to actually watch chat as ppl would shout to the zone. I dont remember if they had a trade channel, its been a while, you log into but I know later games have done that so ppl that do trade dont spam the entire zone over and over.
While I was away at college one year, my town took it upon themselves to totally redo its primary big street. When I got home, I literally could not remember what it looked like before. They took a little 4-lane street and turned it into a highway with on and off ramps.
I felt like that with what EQ did to Freeport. What made it worse was it seemed like they did it for no good reason at all.
This is one of those areas where forward thinking is King.
While there is merit in updating character models and zone textures as improvements in technology allow, there is no need for bulldozing zones just for the sake of it. They rarely benefit from an impromptu facelift, particularly those done for no real purpose (Revamping Freeport and combining EC and WC into one zone etc).
Let Lore and forward planning be the determining factors.
Eg: Terminus 1 year on ....
1. Village of Avendyr's Pass
Due to the number of adventurers visiting, this is now a larger village than before with a few more houses and two Inns, not one. There is also a half-built chapel, with a trio of priests staying at the inn, all looking to raise more funds in oirder to complete it. There is also a Gnome who now stays at the Inn as a permenant guest. Nobody knows exactly why since none can speak that gnomish chitter-chatter.
2. Road leading to Keep Leon
Where before there were merely animals about, this road now seems to have attracted highwaymen at the end nearer the Keep. Rumour says they have a camp in the calley nearby, but the patrols from ThroneFast have yet to find it. In the meantime, they are sending the odd patrol along the road in a bit to reduce their predations; somewhat more of a political move than a practical one since these patrols are infrequent at best.
3. ThroneFast Sewers
Due to an unexplained explosion,
(though a Gnomish artificer, suspected of creating banned fireworks, was identified as being nearby by two unreliable Halfling witnesses. Unreliable since they were 1. halflings and 2. Drunk.)
there was a partial collapse of the sewer system. Excavations revealed a series of older tunnels leading downwards below the city, into the very mountainside. Local Guardsmen have been posted to stop the public entering them while the Council decides on the best course of action. Since these Guardsmen are partial to drinking and gambling, this has not posed a significant obstacle to more intrepid parties. The occasional moan and shrieks from below (caused by the wind, we are told by the Council) has deterred most cityfolk from exploring further. Some few merchants have been heard to offer contracts for third parties to go an investigate on their behalf, but nothing has come of this so far.
These are examples of where open areas within the created zones are left purposefully for potential future expansion. In my examples:
... new facilities added to a village in spaces left for expansion. These fit any needs found by live playing of the game over 9 months.
... Lore based changes to areas can be made, expanding some factions and weakening others, dependent on activity to date.
... Higher Level content can be added to 'empty areas' within zones such as Hub cities to ensure they have good reason for re-visiting this area. It could be a Lore based or faction based change, depending on the server's progression (and the players overall activity withi the server over the time).
But don't just revamp areas 'because'...
Evoras, thinks Gnomish Artificers should be nerfed .... and soon!
People will go to areas that have amenities. Banking, auction house, mail, access to housing, convenient travel to other places, crafting faclities etc.
If we want a crowded, laggy area ....oops I mean a nice lively area where people mix and mingle ..... it should have as many of these features as possible. And no other area should have all of these features.
Given the likely variety of racial starting areas it may be best not to plan on any of them being *the* place to be - better a neutral location. While we do not want and VR does not plan on excessively convenient transportation perhaps a mix and mingle hub with no adventure areas near it could be an exception. The way Rift had Tempest Bay on an island - you could easily get to and from it but there was nothing to do there other than use the facilities and do festival events which often were held there.
Thus, have Terminus City off in the middle of nowhere. Allow fast transportation to it from any major location but a character that used the TRT (Terminus Rapid Transport) to get there could ONLY use it to go back to where he or she came from. Thus it could not be used to get from one point in the outside world to another.
When/if expansions add new cities they would be designed to NOT have some of the Terminus City facilities - thus people would always have a reason to make Terminus City their base. But it would not be a significant inconvenience to lack crafting facilities or bank or AH in Expansion City since one could take the TRT to use them.
dorotea said:People will go to areas that have amenities. Banking, auction house, mail, access to housing, convenient travel to other places, crafting faclities etc.
If we want a crowded, laggy area ....oops I mean a nice lively area where people mix and mingle ..... it should have as many of these features as possible. And no other area should have all of these features.
Given the likely variety of racial starting areas it may be best not to plan on any of them being *the* place to be - better a neutral location. While we do not want and VR does not plan on excessively convenient transportation perhaps a mix and mingle hub with no adventure areas near it could be an exception. The way Rift had Tempest Bay on an island - you could easily get to and from it but there was nothing to do there other than use the facilities and do festival events which often were held there.
Thus, have Terminus City off in the middle of nowhere. Allow fast transportation to it from any major location but a character that used the TRT (Terminus Rapid Transport) to get there could ONLY use it to go back to where he or she came from. Thus it could not be used to get from one point in the outside world to another.
When/if expansions add new cities they would be designed to NOT have some of the Terminus City facilities - thus people would always have a reason to make Terminus City their base. But it would not be a significant inconvenience to lack crafting facilities or bank or AH in Expansion City since one could take the TRT to use them.
Sounds an awful lot like Plane of Knowledge... personally I would prefer they not do this.
I think it's a lot healthier to make sure that starting cities stay relevant. Those are the only static social hubs you need. Other emergent social hubs will naturally occur, but by definition, they cannot and should not be planned or enforced. And they may naturally dissipate even without zone revamps, because as the world grows, the emergent social hubs will adapt and migrate to the needs of the world and its community. In order to attract all races from all over the world to one place for the entire lifespan of the game, everything you could want or need (merchants, banks, etc.) would have to be there and it would totally kill starting cities. And we all know how unhealthy that is for a game.
But anyway, speaking of zone revamps, I do agree that they do more harm than good. I hate them with a passion. In fact, I don't think I have ever even met someone that liked revamps. They make it feel like a completely different game. And if I wanted that, I would just go play a different game. For the same reason I don't like procedurally generated content or randomly generated zone layouts, I want the areas to feel like home and be recognizable even years later.
To me, zone revamps feel like that awkward moment when some old person is trying too hard to be young and "hip." If/when Pantheon gets into permanent housing in the world post-launch and the landscapes gradually change over time, I'm okay with that. It feels a little more realistic and keeps things interesting. But to just log in and suddenly everythings moved around and has updated textures, it makes me wanna vomit. It completely ruins the character of the world.
But I digress. The main issue at hand is making sure there are always reasons to return to your starting city. Everything else should happen naturally.
dorotea said:Thus, have Terminus City off in the middle of nowhere. Allow fast transportation to it from any major location but a character that used the TRT (Terminus Rapid Transport) to get there could ONLY use it to go back to where he or she came from. Thus it could not be used to get from one point in the outside world to another.
This would destroy the entire idea of regional auction houses/economies.
As for zone revamps? Not a fan. ADDING things to a zone without disturbing much of any existing content is fine with me though.
http://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.lp8tQmJhg90O08vxxhK1AQEsDa&pid=15.1
If terminus is put together like this old album picture, there will be plenty of areas underneath where caves or racial/ancient archeology could be found for expansions as I see it, as well as upwellings of areas where two chunks of different planetary wedges (core to strata) do not mix well. Possibly causing- on a geologial (dev) timeline- fissures, earthquakes, sudden upwellings of land. This could also cause tsunamis- exposing islands or regions of islands in the sea areas or flooding some of the caves.
Commons was good because evils could head over 2 zones to neriak to bank and likewise goods to freeport for the same. it was the shortest distance between the two areas without fear of constant mob roamers wandering by to kill you and it was unintended and naturally created by the players. I think this is what also made the Wk bridge iconic for those from the other side of the world as it was the half way point- you knew once you crossed over it was just as long going back as it was going forward if you died. When shadowhaven and bazaar were created as ulimately neutral, that became the gathering place as goods and evils could bank and sell in same zone.
I think "muscle memory" is important- like getting to control panel from MS 7 to MS 10 or finding the character map key function. You learn it on the old GUI to the old OS and then when the new OS comes out with a new GUI- the "muscle memory" does not work anymore and it is frustrating- like a zone revamp. Its nice when Home is home and doesnt change as its the first thing your muscles remember as you learn your way around when starting new. (Muscle memory is more of a martial arts term as I underdsand it, but it best expresses the behavior I am trying to explain.
Evoras said:This is one of those areas where forward thinking is King.
While there is merit in updating character models and zone textures as improvements in technology allow, there is no need for bulldozing zones just for the sake of it. They rarely benefit from an impromptu facelift, particularly those done for no real purpose (Revamping Freeport and combining EC and WC into one zone etc).
Let Lore and forward planning be the determining factors.
Eg: Terminus 1 year on ....
1. Village of Avendyr's Pass
Due to the number of adventurers visiting, this is now a larger village than before with a few more houses and two Inns, not one. There is also a half-built chapel, with a trio of priests staying at the inn, all looking to raise more funds in oirder to complete it. There is also a Gnome who now stays at the Inn as a permenant guest. Nobody knows exactly why since none can speak that gnomish chitter-chatter.
2. Road leading to Keep Leon
Where before there were merely animals about, this road now seems to have attracted highwaymen at the end nearer the Keep. Rumour says they have a camp in the calley nearby, but the patrols from ThroneFast have yet to find it. In the meantime, they are sending the odd patrol along the road in a bit to reduce their predations; somewhat more of a political move than a practical one since these patrols are infrequent at best.
3. ThroneFast Sewers
Due to an unexplained explosion,
(though a Gnomish artificer, suspected of creating banned fireworks, was identified as being nearby by two unreliable Halfling witnesses. Unreliable since they were 1. halflings and 2. Drunk.)
there was a partial collapse of the sewer system. Excavations revealed a series of older tunnels leading downwards below the city, into the very mountainside. Local Guardsmen have been posted to stop the public entering them while the Council decides on the best course of action. Since these Guardsmen are partial to drinking and gambling, this has not posed a significant obstacle to more intrepid parties. The occasional moan and shrieks from below (caused by the wind, we are told by the Council) has deterred most cityfolk from exploring further. Some few merchants have been heard to offer contracts for third parties to go an investigate on their behalf, but nothing has come of this so far.
These are examples of where open areas within the created zones are left purposefully for potential future expansion. In my examples:
... new facilities added to a village in spaces left for expansion. These fit any needs found by live playing of the game over 9 months.
... Lore based changes to areas can be made, expanding some factions and weakening others, dependent on activity to date.
... Higher Level content can be added to 'empty areas' within zones such as Hub cities to ensure they have good reason for re-visiting this area. It could be a Lore based or faction based change, depending on the server's progression (and the players overall activity withi the server over the time).
But don't just revamp areas 'because'...
Evoras, thinks Gnomish Artificers should be nerfed .... and soon!
Great post, as always. Thank you for sharing.
I don't particularly think that a zone revamp is a bad thing if it is done right.
The revamp of Freeport was a good example of how not to do it. Freeport, (like Neriak, Kaladim, Felwithe, Qeynos, and others) were split into 2 or more separate zones basically due to lack of computer power in the late 1990's. If they had to do a revamp, they should have kept a city near identical, slightly upgrade buildings perhaps, updated character models perhaps but other than that, nothing else. Perhaps this was their intent but they seriously overdid it and from one day to another it was like being in a completely different city.
The other day I went to a local sushi place to find it had closed its doors. I now had to find some other place.
It would be cool tiny changes like this could occur in the game....
You expect to find a human Kyle Mortenson at the Crown and Anchor pub but once you get there, there's a new facade with a new elf barkeeper Lanyn Wyngonan. If you ask her about Kyle Mortenson, she will tell you that Kyle ventured out at sea to haul in fresh lobster but the boat capsized in a storm and Kyle was never seen again. Lanyn, being Kyle's secret love interest, took over the pub and renamed it Kyle's Resting Place in his honor.
Any quest givers present in the original bar may still be there or might have relocated elsewhere. Once again, one could ask Lanyn, "Where is Gindo Spenos?" and she might reply "He hasn't been here in a while but why don't you ask his friend Handar over there?"
Small changes like this would also foster more community spirit as people would talk about it, /shout HeY... what happened to the Crown and Anchor? etc.
Key is of course not to change too much and never change the core layout of a city or a zone.
actually from the sounds of it, VR doesn't want us to stay in one place our entire character lifetime. They are trying their hardest to encourage travel to distant lands through localized auction houses, region specific supplies, etc. and letting supply and demand lead the individual to the correct location. You may find all the carpenters or tailors gathered in a single area because the supply of timber or silk/pelts is extremely high making the price low.
In the end it will be entirely up to the players to determine where they want to hang out.