Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Ninja invites

    • 24 posts
    June 18, 2017 2:55 AM PDT

    While waiting for Pntheon i play a bit of P1999 and Uthgard. 

    I am getting quite a few ninja invites: invites for guild or group without asking me first. I just see a window pop-up with the invite. No explanation, no asking if im free to join, nothing. Just the window.

    I hate it if people dont even make an effort sending me a tell first asking if im interested in the invite.

    Or do you think i'm just too old fashion/old school for wanting a tell first?

    • 110 posts
    June 18, 2017 3:01 AM PDT

    Not old fashioned at all.  It is a common practice, and I just ignore those who send random invites or random guild invites.  If you can't be bothered to send a tell asking then it doesn't deserve my attention.

    • 175 posts
    June 18, 2017 4:24 AM PDT
    Old school games had this kind of etiquette because reputation mattered. My hope is it will again. It may be necessary as a community to put effort into this if we want it to matter.
    • 2138 posts
    June 18, 2017 5:46 AM PDT

    I am sensitive to a particular social preference. For instance I don't expect to be invited to a guild before I have grouped with some of their members independently and have gotten to know some of them. To me, being invited sight-unseen to a large guild implies "being caught up in the machine" like that George Orwell type commercial for Apple with John Hurt and the runner throwing the hammer into the screen- the guild being the people to whom the hammer is thrown.

    If everyone starts at the same level a guild would not be created untill some time has passed and unless a sufficient number of people that are on at the same time finalize that relationiship. I can see rl friends creating a guild- but if everyone starts at 0 having to get to the point of relationship that those friends already have can be insurmountable- kind of like getting engaged to a person with a large family, its overwhelming. That engagement dynamic is different- in this situation it would be similar to the engaged to leave the guild to start their own independent group- then maybe later get back into the guild , but which one? or will the engaged absorb the two guilds and call it a different name? then what if someone else gets enganged? ;p. or can it be that only those that are non-guilded, get enganged to one who is guilded?

    Oh well who cares- its just a game. 

    • 999 posts
    June 18, 2017 6:36 AM PDT

    I used to get ninja invites to group in EQ as a warrior when someone would do a /who all and they needed a tank.  For me, I didn't mind too much, but, I'd prefer the etiquette of someone asking if I wanted to group first.  But, I also have been guilty of doing a /who all cleric or enchanter etc. 30 35 when I needed someone to form a group.  I did always ask though.

    As far as guilds go, I don't remember getting any ninja invites in any MMO prior to WoW.  But, like Archaen, I would hope etiquette would also exist because reputation mattered.

    • 3852 posts
    June 18, 2017 7:45 AM PDT

    Ninja guild invites are both common these days and something to be declined almost instantly. Most MMOs have an option to ignore guild invitations - one needs to remember to turn this off after one picks a guild. I normally never use this - I want to know what guilds spam blind invitations so I can avoid them.

    Blind group invitations seem to be less common and I for one find them less annoying if they are from people in the same area I am killing the same mobs or obviously doing the same quest. Sometimes there just isn't that much time to talk especially if other people are also there competing for the same mobs. 

    Game mechanics are a factor here - if a boss respawns in 30 seconds grouping before it is killed is less critical than if it respawns in 30 minutes or 30 hours. If everyone that tags a mob gets quest credit grouping is less critical for the "kill 10 orcs" type quest as well as for that boss.

    • 279 posts
    June 18, 2017 8:04 AM PDT
    I always send a tell first, even if you are on the LFG window, even if you are in the same zone, even if you are right next to me.

    Blind invites piss me off.

    It's a courtesy and respect thing honestly.

    However on the other hand I have been in good groups from blind invites it's rare but does happen.
    • 763 posts
    June 18, 2017 9:13 AM PDT

    I find it mildly amusing, not to mention ironic, that the whole Group/Guild invitation is upended in 'modern' MMOs.

    1. You rarely (if ever) get invites to group ... and where you do they are (with rare exception) without tell first.
    2. You often get invites to Guild ... and again, when you inevitably do, they are (with rare exception) without tell first.

    You would expect the exact opposite!

    You might invite a player to group (temporary) without knowing their mettle ....
    ... but you should never invite a player to Guild up (permanent) without some knowledge of them, or their reputation.

    Evoras, was once ninja Guild invited the second his newly minted character appeared in the world ....

     

    • 238 posts
    June 18, 2017 9:48 AM PDT

    Hello everyone :). Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but guilds have lost the meaning that they use to have. Guilds as mentioned above have become more like a machine vs an online family. I feel like blind invites are just a natural manifestation of how little it means about being part of a guild in todays mmo. There use to be (I believe) a 10-14 day penality for quiting a guild, where in that time period you couldn't join another guild. It made guilds fight over the players in a respectful mannor, prevented guilds stealing players form other guilds, promoted team work, and added a value to the guild that you were in.

    As a recuitment officer in todays mmo, blind invites are usually done to speed up leveling of a guild. Usually because the game has some guild leveling system that offers perks to players based on what ever level the guild is. With that being said the guilds that I have been apart of, and recuited for have all been endgame oriented guilds. Recritment was focused on max or close to max level players, in an attempt to form a guild enviornment with a simular goal in mind. I never did any blind inviting because the goal of our guild required players of like mindedness to achieve, and this actaully required talking and getting to know the player as an individual (not a cog in the system). I also chose to stick away from the blind invite, becasue they are unprofessional and very impersonal. 

    As much as blind guild invites irritate me because of their unprofessional/impersonal attitude, ninja invites are more problematic for the over all health of the guild system. Due to the fact that in today's mmo you can freely hop from guild to guild, larger guilds have the ability to poach players form smaller guilds. I wont lie this has been a frequent occurance in the guilds that I have been in. It makes hard to keep guild morale up, as well as have a full active raid/pvp team. 

    As a player who enjoys having freedom of choice, personally I would not be opposed to going back to a penality system for leaving a guild. Possibly have the first occurance go without penality, because sometimes what you get into isn't what you expected X_X. I just feel that the penality system while restricting in nature, did so much to promote healthy guild atmosphere, player community, and player cohesion.

     

    • 1714 posts
    June 18, 2017 10:28 AM PDT

    Tharca said:

    While waiting for Pntheon i play a bit of P1999 and Uthgard. 

    I am getting quite a few ninja invites: invites for guild or group without asking me first. I just see a window pop-up with the invite. No explanation, no asking if im free to join, nothing. Just the window.

    I hate it if people dont even make an effort sending me a tell first asking if im interested in the invite.

    Or do you think i'm just too old fashion/old school for wanting a tell first?

    I hate ninja invites. Take the time to make a brief human connection because that's what this kind of game is about in the end. 

    • 279 posts
    June 18, 2017 2:28 PM PDT
    Baldur what game had a penalty system?

    Because EQ and VG never did that I can remember.
    • 1714 posts
    June 18, 2017 5:11 PM PDT

    Baldur said:

    Hello everyone :). Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but guilds have lost the meaning that they use to have. Guilds as mentioned above have become more like a machine vs an online family. I feel like blind invites are just a natural manifestation of how little it means about being part of a guild in todays mmo. There use to be (I believe) a 10-14 day penality for quiting a guild, where in that time period you couldn't join another guild. It made guilds fight over the players in a respectful mannor, prevented guilds stealing players form other guilds, promoted team work, and added a value to the guild that you were in.

    As a recuitment officer in todays mmo, blind invites are usually done to speed up leveling of a guild. Usually because the game has some guild leveling system that offers perks to players based on what ever level the guild is. With that being said the guilds that I have been apart of, and recuited for have all been endgame oriented guilds. Recritment was focused on max or close to max level players, in an attempt to form a guild enviornment with a simular goal in mind. I never did any blind inviting because the goal of our guild required players of like mindedness to achieve, and this actaully required talking and getting to know the player as an individual (not a cog in the system). I also chose to stick away from the blind invite, becasue they are unprofessional and very impersonal. 

    As much as blind guild invites irritate me because of their unprofessional/impersonal attitude, ninja invites are more problematic for the over all health of the guild system. Due to the fact that in today's mmo you can freely hop from guild to guild, larger guilds have the ability to poach players form smaller guilds. I wont lie this has been a frequent occurance in the guilds that I have been in. It makes hard to keep guild morale up, as well as have a full active raid/pvp team. 

    As a player who enjoys having freedom of choice, personally I would not be opposed to going back to a penality system for leaving a guild. Possibly have the first occurance go without penality, because sometimes what you get into isn't what you expected X_X. I just feel that the penality system while restricting in nature, did so much to promote healthy guild atmosphere, player community, and player cohesion.

     

    It's a corporate machine mentality and I don't think there's any overcoming it. When we formed the "power" guild on my EQ server in Juneish of 1999 it was 2 groups of FRIENDS. Now you will see guilds like face**** poopsocking from day 1. It sucks. 

    • 94 posts
    June 18, 2017 7:19 PM PDT

    I got ninja invites all the time from virtually every game I have played and just ignore them. As others have said, if the ppl doing the invite cant ask first OR at least send you a tell explaining the invite, I just blow the invite away and move along.

    • 238 posts
    June 18, 2017 8:22 PM PDT

    Krixus said:

    Baldur said:

    Hello everyone :). Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but guilds have lost the meaning that they use to have. Guilds as mentioned above have become more like a machine vs an online family. I feel like blind invites are just a natural manifestation of how little it means about being part of a guild in todays mmo. There use to be (I believe) a 10-14 day penality for quiting a guild, where in that time period you couldn't join another guild. It made guilds fight over the players in a respectful mannor, prevented guilds stealing players form other guilds, promoted team work, and added a value to the guild that you were in.

    As a recuitment officer in todays mmo, blind invites are usually done to speed up leveling of a guild. Usually because the game has some guild leveling system that offers perks to players based on what ever level the guild is. With that being said the guilds that I have been apart of, and recuited for have all been endgame oriented guilds. Recritment was focused on max or close to max level players, in an attempt to form a guild enviornment with a simular goal in mind. I never did any blind inviting because the goal of our guild required players of like mindedness to achieve, and this actaully required talking and getting to know the player as an individual (not a cog in the system). I also chose to stick away from the blind invite, becasue they are unprofessional and very impersonal. 

    As much as blind guild invites irritate me because of their unprofessional/impersonal attitude, ninja invites are more problematic for the over all health of the guild system. Due to the fact that in today's mmo you can freely hop from guild to guild, larger guilds have the ability to poach players form smaller guilds. I wont lie this has been a frequent occurance in the guilds that I have been in. It makes hard to keep guild morale up, as well as have a full active raid/pvp team. 

    As a player who enjoys having freedom of choice, personally I would not be opposed to going back to a penality system for leaving a guild. Possibly have the first occurance go without penality, because sometimes what you get into isn't what you expected X_X. I just feel that the penality system while restricting in nature, did so much to promote healthy guild atmosphere, player community, and player cohesion.

     

    It's a corporate machine mentality and I don't think there's any overcoming it. When we formed the "power" guild on my EQ server in Juneish of 1999 it was 2 groups of FRIENDS. Now you will see guilds like face**** poopsocking from day 1. It sucks. 

    Yeah if I remember correctly (and it has been a while) EQ had strict rules and regulations on what guilds were and were not allowed to do. There was none of this slap on the hand and rename. If your guild had an offensive name it usually ended up in guild shut down, and the leader of the guild had his account banned for X amount of days. There was also very little of this player poaching that I mentioned above. It was partly due to the penality that a player suffered after leaving a guild, but also because guilds found doing this could be shut down, as this act could have been seen as player greifing/ guild system abuse.

    Honestly I'm not sure if there is any overcoming it either, as things have vastly changed since the launch of EQ in terms of player mentality. If there is any good place to start, it starts with the 1. basic guild system foundation, 2. rules and regulations for this system, and 3. enforcemnt of these rules. Too many games nowdays have the first one, are not strict with he second one, and rarely if ever enforce the third one.  Imo it also doesnt help that more young teens play now compared to time that EQ launched, with these loosely enforced rules. I remember when EQ had a Mature rating instead of a T rating. This didn't stop all kids from playing (I was one of them), but it made parents think before letting thier kids play and had to have had some positive impact on the game play of others. With the strict rule enforcement that EQ orignially had there was a real fear of having you account banned for a substantial amount of time, so the kids that did play were usually on their best behavior when having social interactions with others. 

    Todays game standards consist of having perks tied into guild level, this combined with the fact that everything now is more or less a rush to max level only contirbutes to machine mentality. I would be willing argue that if the rush to max level wasnt as important as it is in today's mmo, maybe the machine mentality that has developed over time could take a hit (and indirectly have an effect on guilds). While it wouldn't completely deminish due to the fact that you natually have this type of player in every game and hardcore guild do exist (to down content first), for the everyday player I don't think the rush to max would be that important. The fact that Pantheon is incoporating high level game play at various levels, rather than just max might make a direct hit to this mentality. At the very least it would stall things provided: gear from these areas remain relevant for a good number of levels, and in some situational cases were best in slot at higher levels. 

    Im not really sure what Pantheon can do to combat this. We will need more information on guilds, items, rare mobs... etc before any assumption can be made. However it seems like they are aware of this current player mentality epidemic, and are at least attempting to combat it. It took years for the MMO genre to get where its at and change won't occur over night, but Pantheon looks to be planning ahead and taking steps in the right direction. Maybe given time Pantheon can revitalize what the MMO genre has lost, make improvements on the postive things it has gained, and cut out aspects that are diseased. It really would be nice to play EQ 2.0 in the sense of experiencing what made the MMO genre great again.


    This post was edited by Baldur at June 18, 2017 9:18 PM PDT
    • 511 posts
    June 19, 2017 12:37 AM PDT

    Raidan said:

    I used to get ninja invites to group in EQ as a warrior when someone would do a /who all and they needed a tank.  For me, I didn't mind too much, but, I'd prefer the etiquette of someone asking if I wanted to group first.  But, I also have been guilty of doing a /who all cleric or enchanter etc. 30 35 when I needed someone to form a group.  I did always ask though.

    As far as guilds go, I don't remember getting any ninja invites in any MMO prior to WoW.  But, like Archaen, I would hope etiquette would also exist because reputation mattered.

     

    That is the difference there between proper atiguette and being rude. Just sending an invite to all chanters lvl 30-35 is what makes chanters want to go /role or /anon (that and the constant tells for buffs). If I do a /who all enchanter 30 35, I will then send tells to the chanter that is nearest the group, and work out. I will also give 3-5 minutes inbetween sending tells because I hate sending out 5 tells at once, and telling 3 of the people that sorry someone already took the spot.

    Also as previously stated, blind guild invites get ignored and blind group invites generally get ignored from me.

    • 422 posts
    June 19, 2017 7:07 AM PDT

    Tharca said:

    While waiting for Pntheon i play a bit of P1999 and Uthgard. 

    I am getting quite a few ninja invites: invites for guild or group without asking me first. I just see a window pop-up with the invite. No explanation, no asking if im free to join, nothing. Just the window.

    I hate it if people dont even make an effort sending me a tell first asking if im interested in the invite.

    Or do you think i'm just too old fashion/old school for wanting a tell first?

    This is without a doubt one a very rude thing to do IMO. I hate it myself. Even if I am LFG and someone ninja invites me i'll decline and then send them a tell asking them whats the deal. Send me a tell first, tell me what you're doing and how long you'll be around. I don't want to find out that your half way across the world and when I finally get there the group is breaking up. If the group is only going to be alive for 30 minutes then i'd rather find something else. 

    Talk to people, don't just ninja invite. I will refuse to play with people who do that.

    • 151 posts
    June 19, 2017 8:55 AM PDT

    Sunmistress said: Baldur what game had a penalty system? Because EQ and VG never did that I can remember.

     

    Same question. I think it would be awesome if there was a mandatory 14 day "cool off" period between guild tags. Never seen or heard of such a thing in MMO's. I dispise guild hoppers and it sucks being in a stepping stone guild.

    • 189 posts
    June 19, 2017 9:06 AM PDT
    Old EQ players might recall when you had to have a minimum amount of people (5?) and a few PP to start a guild, and you had to see an NPC to create a new guild tag..

    I despise ninja guild invites, if no one has spoke to you prior to the invite it is plain ol rude. Never had too many ninja group invites, only when I was in a newb zone starting out and people try and make quick groups starting out.
    • 319 posts
    June 19, 2017 9:12 AM PDT

    Ninja invites can be annoying but are easily remedied by just refusing them. The ones I hate are the ones that you refuse and they repop up right away from the same person. It's like they cannot believe that you are not interested in thier guild or group.

    IMHO ninja invites are a product of a game that is dwindling in player base and people are desperate to rebuild thier guild. All it would take is a little courtesy to send them a "Hi, are you interested in joining a friendly guild?"

    • 151 posts
    June 19, 2017 11:59 AM PDT

    Fairchild said: Old EQ players might recall when you had to have a minimum amount of people (5?) and a few PP to start a guild, and you had to see an NPC to create a new guild tag.. I despise ninja guild invites, if no one has spoke to you prior to the invite it is plain ol rude. Never had too many ninja group invites, only when I was in a newb zone starting out and people try and make quick groups starting out.

    I was only involved in creating one guild in EQ1. Circa '99 we formed up at Inn 3 and a GM came and created the guild and tagged us. The few other guilds I was in were already going strong by the time I joined them.

    • 10 posts
    June 19, 2017 10:11 PM PDT

    Maximis said:

    Sunmistress said: Baldur what game had a penalty system? Because EQ and VG never did that I can remember.

     

    Same question. I think it would be awesome if there was a mandatory 14 day "cool off" period between guild tags. Never seen or heard of such a thing in MMO's. I dispise guild hoppers and it sucks being in a stepping stone guild.

    Lineage 2 has something along those lines. It's been a long time since I played that and I don't remember all the details, but you were supposed to follow the proper procedure of asking permission to leave and then the guildleader had to grant that. Then there were no (or lesser?) penalties. But if you just left without permission there were significant penalties for the player and the guild both.

    • 763 posts
    June 20, 2017 1:54 AM PDT

    EQ etiquette (about 1999-2004) was something along the lines of:

    GROUP Invitations
    0. Person in-zone *asking* to join -> Blind Invite acceptible
    1. Person in-zone with 'LFG' or 'LFG for Orc-1' flags -> Blind Invite acceptible
    2. Person sitting in-zone not flagged LFG (with/without AFK) -> /tell needed
    3. Person in-zone killing yard trash w/out LFG -> /tell needed
    4. Person in-zone for any other reason -> /tell needed
    5. Person NOT in-zone with LFG flag set -> /tell 'fancy CB slave pens? we got 4 here inc tank/healz'
    6. Person NOT in-zone and NO LFG flag set -> /tell 'Any chance you up for Sol-B? We got awesome Full-group in King etc but bard needs to leave in 10 mins and *Fairchild* recommended you!'

    GUILD Invitations
    1. Person (ANY) -> /tell
    2. errr thats it.

    PS Seem to recall early EQ (mebbe EQ2?) had a 24+ hrs 'cooldown' after leaving a Guild. Suspect CoH/CoV did too.

    Evoras, is sad CoH closed ...

    • 24 posts
    June 20, 2017 5:37 AM PDT

    Evoras said:

    EQ etiquette (about 1999-2004) was something along the lines of:

    GROUP Invitations
    0. Person in-zone *asking* to join -> Blind Invite acceptible
    1. Person in-zone with 'LFG' or 'LFG for Orc-1' flags -> Blind Invite acceptible
    2. Person sitting in-zone not flagged LFG (with/without AFK) -> /tell needed
    3. Person in-zone killing yard trash w/out LFG -> /tell needed
    4. Person in-zone for any other reason -> /tell needed
    5. Person NOT in-zone with LFG flag set -> /tell 'fancy CB slave pens? we got 4 here inc tank/healz'
    6. Person NOT in-zone and NO LFG flag set -> /tell 'Any chance you up for Sol-B? We got awesome Full-group in King etc but bard needs to leave in 10 mins and *Fairchild* recommended you!'

    GUILD Invitations
    1. Person (ANY) -> /tell
    2. errr thats it.

    PS Seem to recall early EQ (mebbe EQ2?) had a 24+ hrs 'cooldown' after leaving a Guild. Suspect CoH/CoV did too.

    Evoras, is sad CoH closed ...

     

    Yes this is how i remember it to be and i am totally fine with that. So sad its not the case anymore and i do hope that Pantheon will bring some good manners back.


    This post was edited by Tharca at June 20, 2017 5:37 AM PDT
    • 801 posts
    June 20, 2017 7:37 AM PDT

    If i invited someone, i asked them first if they are interested. Guild or group, did not matter, i would still ask.

    What i hated, was spending the time to send in a formal request to join and the other party would simply not say yes or no but ignore you completly.

    Even if you complemented them on good game play, for the reason why you invited them.

     

    So it can be a two way street, annoying either way.

     

    • 175 posts
    June 20, 2017 9:49 AM PDT

    @Evoras spot on!

    Games these days don't have any etiquette cause there isn't a need for it at all.

    When do you need a group outside of an auto group finder? And how long do those groups even last? They're much more like the mobas of today.

    As for guilds, it's such a crap shoot that a blind invite is almost as good as a /tell invite. I'd love to see guilds encourage some good social behavior rather than just be a perk bot.

    My biggest fear is that Pantheon is easy enough all around that the community goes to pot. Quite encouraged that the devs are aware of this, but still have this fear nonetheless.