Dullahan said:If you are annoyed by being taunted off the mob you're attacking, I'd say mission accomplished.
Pretty much.
I want to see this game have many mobs that do things players won't want to have happen to them. Things like stuns, roots, fears, mez, charms, taunts, sleep, and everything else that a player character can presumably do. Yeah it sucks getting taunted or mez'd but that's part of the difficulty and where the teamwork comes out stronger. I couldn't tell you how many times I died in EQ because I was hit with ghoul root and couldn't escape; It sucked but I didn't like the game any less for it, the opposite was true if anything.
Iksar said:Dullahan said:If you are annoyed by being taunted off the mob you're attacking, I'd say mission accomplished.
Pretty much.
I want to see this game have many mobs that do things players won't want to have happen to them. Things like stuns, roots, fears, mez, charms, taunts, sleep, and everything else that a player character can presumably do. Yeah it sucks getting taunted or mez'd but that's part of the difficulty and where the teamwork comes out stronger. I couldn't tell you how many times I died in EQ because I was hit with ghoul root and couldn't escape; It sucked but I didn't like the game any less for it, the opposite was true if anything.
Right. Now that doesn't mean I want it just to be annoying, but to be engaging.
Seemed like in EQ when you were running away, that was always when a root would land on you. Nobody likes being rooted, especially when you're at range or trying to get away and it might mean certain death, but that is what makes combat challenging. Everyone talks about AI and how "boring" or "simple" MMO combat is, but then when you introduce ways of making it harder, folks cry foul.
Bring on the taunts I say. It should be our job to pay attention and stay on the correct mobs, as well as to dispel, cure, heal or even smack our allies while mezed or incapacitated.
Iksar said:Dullahan said:If you are annoyed by being taunted off the mob you're attacking, I'd say mission accomplished.
Pretty much.
I want to see this game have many mobs that do things players won't want to have happen to them. Things like stuns, roots, fears, mez, charms, taunts, sleep, and everything else that a player character can presumably do. Yeah it sucks getting taunted or mez'd but that's part of the difficulty and where the teamwork comes out stronger. I couldn't tell you how many times I died in EQ because I was hit with ghoul root and couldn't escape; It sucked but I didn't like the game any less for it, the opposite was true if anything.
/Agreed Dullahan and Iksar. I would agree it could be annoying (not a bad thing though) if you're fighting a group of warrior-type mobs who are continually taunting you and you are flip flopping back and forth between targets (solo especially); however, I would also counter that's where good strategy could come into play as well to mes/root, etc. the mobs if need be to avoid being taunted.
I love this idea guys! I liked that in EQ mobs had no issues sending out their mez, stun, charm spells... One of the most memorable moments going back to EQ was hitting level 80 and roaming around PoFire and being charmed by some big bird thing and killing all the other players in the area... was hilarious!
The thing is, players are not NPCs. NPCs are not real, don't think, don't feel. Of course that can be said about PCs too, but not about the player who controls the PC.
Depending on the game, we might fear an NPC for 30 seconds, mez him for a minute, root them for 3 minutes, snare them for 10 minutes. Do we really want NPCs to do that to us? Well, I don't.
Want to make the game more challenging? There are ways to do that. Get creative. Or don't get creative and just increase mob dps, or debuff the player. But loss of control of your character isn't fun, isn't creative, isn't challenging. It's just annoying. Here, I'll go drink a beer while the computer is playing my character for me. Let me know when I can come back and play again.
Tachya said:The thing is, players are not NPCs. NPCs are not real, don't think, don't feel. Of course that can be said about PCs too, but not about the player who controls the PC.
Depending on the game, we might fear an NPC for 30 seconds, mez him for a minute, root them for 3 minutes, snare them for 10 minutes. Do we really want NPCs to do that to us? Well, I don't.
Want to make the game more challenging? There are ways to do that. Get creative. Or don't get creative and just increase mob dps, or debuff the player. But loss of control of your character isn't fun, isn't creative, isn't challenging. It's just annoying. Here, I'll go drink a beer while the computer is playing my character for me. Let me know when I can come back and play again.
That's a fairly exaggerated example and I don't think anyone is suggesting mobs chain CC players. That said not every aspect of gameplay needs to be enjoyable to everyone. If a mob is constatnly CCing your group then I'd argue it's the groups fault for not using interrupts/their own CC when spells are being cast or for not being quick to dispell when the CC does go off. I have no issue with being slept/mezzed/rooted for 15 seconds, or being stunned/blinded for 2-5 seconds, or anything else really. So long as there are ways to avoid or remedy it.
Iksar said:That's a fairly exaggerated example and I don't think anyone is suggesting mobs chain CC players. That said not every aspect of gameplay needs to be enjoyable to everyone. If a mob is constatnly CCing your group then I'd argue it's the groups fault for not using interrupts/their own CC when spells are being cast or for not being quick to dispell when the CC does go off. I have no issue with being slept/mezzed/rooted for 15 seconds, or being stunned/blinded for 2-5 seconds, or anything else really. So long as there are ways to avoid or remedy it.
Wait, what is exaggerated? The abilities I mentioned are real, at least in EQ. It was suggested in this thread that NPCs should get the same abilities as players. Do I think it's over the top for NPCs to do that? Of course, that's what I'm saying.
Of course we should use interrupts, and CC. Against things like gate and heals, too.
The thing this thread is specifically about, NPCs taunting players, and then you can't stop attacking as also suggested here - sorry, but that's not me playing my character, that's the game playing my character for me while I watch the show. That's not a fun game mechanic and should be used very sparingly if at all IMO. I don't mind challenging. I've played some of the most challenging content. But it was me playing my character.
Tachya said:Wait, what is exaggerated? The abilities I mentioned are real, at least in EQ. It was suggested in this thread that NPCs should get the same abilities as players. Do I think it's over the top for NPCs to do that? Of course, that's what I'm saying.
Of course we should use interrupts, and CC. Against things like gate and heals, too.
The thing this thread is specifically about, NPCs taunting players, and then you can't stop attacking as also suggested here - sorry, but that's not me playing my character, that's the game playing my character for me while I watch the show. That's not a fun game mechanic and should be used very sparingly if at all IMO. I don't mind challenging. I've played some of the most challenging content. But it was me playing my character.
This part is exaggerated in terms of how you are representing mob CC: "Depending on the game, we might fear an NPC for 30 seconds, mez him for a minute, root them for 3 minutes, snare them for 10 minutes. Do we really want NPCs to do that to us? Well, I don't."
About NPCs taunting players...how is that much different than losing control of your character for a sleep/mez/stun/etc, other than being more important to counter like with charm? You just sit there, not playing your character, until someone helps you out in those cases too. NPC taunt could be something dispelled just the same as every other debuff, maybe with lull in this case.
Iksar said:Tachya said:Wait, what is exaggerated? The abilities I mentioned are real, at least in EQ. It was suggested in this thread that NPCs should get the same abilities as players. Do I think it's over the top for NPCs to do that? Of course, that's what I'm saying.
Of course we should use interrupts, and CC. Against things like gate and heals, too.
The thing this thread is specifically about, NPCs taunting players, and then you can't stop attacking as also suggested here - sorry, but that's not me playing my character, that's the game playing my character for me while I watch the show. That's not a fun game mechanic and should be used very sparingly if at all IMO. I don't mind challenging. I've played some of the most challenging content. But it was me playing my character.
This part is exaggerated in terms of how you are representing mob CC: "Depending on the game, we might fear an NPC for 30 seconds, mez him for a minute, root them for 3 minutes, snare them for 10 minutes. Do we really want NPCs to do that to us? Well, I don't."
About NPCs taunting players...how is that much different than losing control of your character for a sleep/mez/stun/etc, other than being more important to counter like with charm? You just sit there, not playing your character, until someone helps you out in those cases too. NPC taunt could be something dispelled just the same as every other debuff, maybe with lull in this case.
I agree it's exaggerated to say if NPCs get the same abilities that we have, then we'll just be stuck sitting back and watching our characters play on their own. For one thing, the durations may be different. For basically the same reason as why most games tone down the durations of CC abilities in PvP. I think it's safe to assume that due to being a group-based game, mobs are going to have more HP than an individual character of the same level. Therefore, a 3 minute root would be far more significant when cast on a player as opposed to a mob. So NPC abilites can (and should) be scaled down. Furthermore, as long as you have SOMETHING you can do while you are CC'd -- even if it's just being able to type in chat that you need someone to dispel something -- that's just part of the game. In most cases, if you're rooted, you can still cast. If you're silenced, you can still melee. I'd imagine if you're taunted, you wouldn't be completely helpless either. You still have control over something and have choices to make. Removing some of your freedom can be a healthy struggle. As long as there is counterplay available, giving NPCs more abilities allows for much more room for dynamic and challenging combat.
It wouldnt even have to be something as drastic as losing complete control of your character. I would see it more as a forced target for a duration, messing up the assist in the group and slowing the dps assault on the groups main target. Taunt is actually quite a minor effect compared to charm which would have you attacking against your own team members. But it does do enough to disrupt your groups tactics and it also does mean that a warrior/s in a group of mobs becomes a larger threat instead of a bit of an afterthought when you have other classes like healers etc in the NPC group. Its fair to say in this world that is being created you would assume like us players the NPC group would want a you to be attacking the warrior while the other classes get to unload some of their more devistating attacks, this gives them a way to try to stop us players easily bypassing the warrior mobs to quickly dispense the healers etc.
if it was dispellable or there would otherwise be a way to circumvent it, I'd say go for it. But a good group for me, is everybody knowing their abilities and how to use them, and if a player was forced to attack a certain mob for a time, I feel it would take away too much of the interaction. I'd say it would be fun if some mobs were non-tauntable so you had to take care of them with a different approach, or NPC casters or clerics using time-limited invulnerability abilities to make you change your play and tactics during the fight.
@Original Poster-
NPCs taunting players is an interesting concept. I'm all for any effect NPC's can throw at us, as long as there are ways to counter these effects (even if that is just to wait 4 seconds or to cast 3 abilties in quick succession, followed by doing a double barrel roll to the left and typing a 9 digit pin on your numpad during the NPCs cooldown).
I definitely want to see a lot of movement/dodging and countering of enemy abilities in real time such that we are not just standing there watching a macro play xD.
@Sunmistress-
Sunmistress said:I hope that curing is an integral aspect of the healer/support jobs. I could see enchanters/bards getting cures that affect charm/mez/stun, druids the normal poison/disease and then roots and snares, shamans curses, poison, and disease. Clerics probably mez, poison, disease.
I completely agree with you. There are so many charms, diseases, poisons, debuffs of every shape and size that mean so little that you're better off just healing through it. I hope the pantheon over-time/curable effects hurt like hell to get us healers to rush for our removal spells or cry over dead allies.
I would also like to see short term protection spells on classes like the cleric. "Decrease damage taken on target for X seconds" and things of the like. Abilities that allow us to *quickly* protect a player, for a short duration, that may have been the target of an incoming spell or taken over by the aforementioned NPC_Taunt.