Megaera said:Nore said:I'm a little bit scared at the idea of specs.
Precisely because of what some people has mentioned earlier. The fact that I for instance specialize and may be affected in the long term because it is not optimized for what I want to do or what a group expects me to do is a bit nerve racking. There are already a lot of classes and I expect more are going to be added (maybe not).
If you go with Flexibility, where a Class can switch from one to another Spec at a certain "cost" (special quest item from a master that's a reward from a daily quest, stacks up to 30, 1 given daily if quest is complete), then I'm okay with it. At least, personall
y. I just don't want to see people getting bottlenecked and groups/guilds getting wrecked because of a subclass choice.
I don't want to write a full text yet, I'm waiting to get more information and to test it in-game if possible. I want to be as constructive as possible.
If you want to be a dps warrior spec into that and choose that path, if you want to be a warrior tank thats the route you choose all the way thru.
If you want to be battle bard vs a group buffing matchine thats your choice, and the player should live and die by their choices.
VR should give every character 1 mulligan @ mid levels and 1 @ max level if they made a mistake or changed their mind.
If i had my way players would also place their stats and have 2 mulligans for that also. Playing an mmo is about making choices, having fun, paying the consequences for bad decisions and rolling alts.
I have messed up builds, placed stats so wrong that required me to reroll a character, its part of gaming. Seeing so many people wanting to take away risk and adventure is kinda disheartening to my wife and I.
I do not agree with you. It is possible that on a raiding night we may need another DPS and he may have to switch from Tanking to DPSing while a bench who only has tanking gear can go ahead and fill the spot. Why penalize players? A group? A guild? A raiding night simply because **** happens in real life?
I would agree with you if it was for instance Diablo 2 a few years ago when there weren't any respecs. But then, you had all the information you needed about your character and could easily do what YOU wanted. I have a full time job, a woman and a kid to take care of. It's not about taking a risk away, it's about enjoying the game. Want to talk about risk? There are encounters. Adventure? What's the Adventure in rerolling a character or having a pentup frustration because you built up a character wrong? Adventure is about what you experience in the game. The areas you discover, the rares spawns you find and what not. Don't mix the two because you got it all wrong there.
And just to set things straight with you. I played and still play the Demon Souls franchise ever since it came out. The game sets you in a way that you CAN rework a character and still be effective. On very RARE occasions you ought to restart. How'd you end up restarting a character? Because you were testing something for massive min-maxing. Which I did constantly. Then, I had time to play non-stop with the little amount of responsabilities that I had. Now is a different story. I want my hours to count. My gaming time is intense and I clear as much as I can within the small time frame that I have.
Now that I'm done with this text, I will await more information so my posts can be CONSTRUCTIVE. Which is the point of this Forum.
If you allow players to change a specialization for every encounter you may as well play rift or wow, because that is the road you are traveling down.
Or, don't call it specialization and just call it being a class. Depending on what needs to be done, the warrior can put down the shield or the druid can put away some heals and go DPS or whatever else would otherwise be available to the classes. The road being traveled is the modern MMO specs/talent trees and not the roots of your class being a complete & distinct class with a real identity. I want to choose the path of a wizard or rogue or enchanter and make my own way playing around with all the tools. And I want the people I group with to be just as flexible in their classes to be able to possibly fill open spots in groups. Then you sometimes meet those high skill players that really know their class and pull off amazing feats putting together skills you'd never considered.
Iksar said:If you allow players to change a specialization for every encounter you may as well play rift or wow, because that is the road you are traveling down.
Or, don't call it specialization and just call it being a class. Depending on what needs to be done, the warrior can put down the shield or the druid can put away some heals and go DPS or whatever else would otherwise be available to the classes. The road being traveled is the modern MMO specs/talent trees and not the roots of your class being a complete & distinct class with a real identity. I want to choose the path of a wizard or rogue or enchanter and make my own way playing around with all the tools. And I want the people I group with to be just as flexible in their classes to be able to possibly fill open spots in groups. Then you sometimes meet those high skill players that really know their class and pull off amazing feats putting together skills you'd never considered.
What Iksar says. Props. I'm okay with that completely.
It would not be penalizing them, it is what they chose to spec into, so it was their choice.
That being said, they should be able to put all their basic dps abilities on their bar, put on gear that has dps oriented stats, and go to the raid as some sort of dps. Their dps might not be amazing, but they can still add to the group.
I am like you with a wife, and i have 3 kids, and i dont have as much time to game as i used to because of that.
With that being said, having characters that can do everything at an optimal level is not the gaming experience i am looking for, and its not the experience many others want either. If we wanted that we can go play wow or rift or a fee other mmos.
What we want are classes with defined roles where they shine and can do other things but just not as well.
No character specializated as tank should be able to swap to dps and change gear and do optimum dps.
The same for dps that want to tank, or healerz that want to dps.
You built your character to take a beating...or give one out...or heal/cc, or buff.
At no point in my opinion should you be able to change it on a whim and be able to fill any other role at an optimum level.
Iksar said:If you allow players to change a specialization for every encounter you may as well play rift or wow, because that is the road you are traveling down.
Or, don't call it specialization and just call it being a class. Depending on what needs to be done, the warrior can put down the shield or the druid can put away some heals and go DPS or whatever else would otherwise be available to the classes. The road being traveled is the modern MMO specs/talent trees and not the roots of your class being a complete & distinct class with a real identity. I want to choose the path of a wizard or rogue or enchanter and make my own way playing around with all the tools. And I want the people I group with to be just as flexible in their classes to be able to possibly fill open spots in groups. Then you sometimes meet those high skill players that really know their class and pull off amazing feats putting together skills you'd never considered.
I do believe somewhere in the tenets of the game they state that their will be uniqueness to classes and character, and that each has a role to fill.
They didnt say that x class can fill multiple roles at an optimal level.
Amsai said: Well specializations aside. Im pretty sure VR has said for a while most classes will have a primary and secondary role. If we go by that then it could be that thry can do both roles well but have more selection in abilities and spells in the specialization. Therefore could still do the other role just not as efficiently or some such. So I wouldnt think we would need to worry about classes not being able to perform their roles?
This is what i have been trying to say.
Ty for wording it nicely.
Lets use the stream as and example...
They had no enchanter for cc, so a rogue did it at the cost of dps...he is not as good as the enchanter but filled in.
A tank is looking for a grp, but cant find one...he can go to a grp and dps...not as good as a real dps, but it keeps the content flowing.
Megaera said:I do believe somewhere in the tenets of the game they state that their will be uniqueness to classes and character, and that each has a role to fill.
They didnt say that x class can fill multiple roles at an optimal level.
And I never said anything about optimal level, I said within the confines of the class. So a warrior going DPS doesn't mean putting out the numbers of a DPS class just more than tanking, same for the other classes. Or in the case of monk, he stays a DPS class but depending on the situation he is in or needs of the group can swap his skills to off-tank. Not have those other roles be stuck behind specs, but be a part of who the class is. Just as they said in the streams that a rogue isn't really a CC class but they can fill in in a pinch and work together with a group when no CC class is available.
It isn't about classes excelling in two things, its about excelling in one and being *decent* in another thing or two. In the stream we see that shaman excel in buff/debuffs and are decent healers.
I don't like the idea of having to live or die by permanent choices in a game that is constantly evolving. There will always be tweaks and balancing acts going on in the background that could end up altering any given specialization. You just look at the game through a different lens than I do. For whatever reason you feel that flexibility and longer progression takes away risk and adventure. I feel that it adds to both. If you allow monks to learn both specializations, they are technically viable for more adventures ... and adventures are risky business. You say that a warrior shouldn't be able to change between super tank and DPS just because. I feel they should be able to do that if they earned the means to do it through specialization progression and situational gear acquisition. It's actually a pretty common thing that people try to accomplish ... you'll see healers or tanks with their "DPS Gear" on all the time if the situation warrants it. Now it's very important to note that I wouldn't want to see this possible while in combat. Once you are engaged in combat, you are stuck with that spec until combat is over.
What I imagine is a wide variety of content in a dungeon. It's not just a matter of tank and spank all the way through. There would be a variety of boss types, variety of roamers, NPC dispositions, acclimation effects, etc. I honestly believe that VR can program a more difficult game for us if there is an understanding that we can switch specializations in between combat. They can toss out more variables or combinations of challenges in a dungeon that might not otherwise be possible if your group is 100% static and inflexible. Our hotbars are being limited for a reason. On any given fight, we'll only be able to utilize portions of our overall kit. One of the major challenges I expect in Pantheon is to try and find the sweet spot for every encounter ... getting that perfect balance of core/situational abilities right prior to engaging. I view that as a pretty big sense of risk or adventure on any given encounter. Your options are limited ... and you always have to make a "choice" on how you prepare for the upcoming battle. At the end of the day, though, the more choices we can make, the more things that can go right or wrong. The more options or variables we have to choose from, the more we can use our knowledge/expertise to overcome those challenges. By locking us to a single specialization, that would only further prohibit the choices that we can make and ultimately lead to a more one-dimensional and linear style of gameplay.
Also, I still consider your first specialization selection as a major choice. It will have a pretty massive influence on your gaming sessions for quite awhile as you will essentially be limited to a much more narrow pool of abilities to draw from until you are able to master another specialization. If you think about leveling progression, our characters learn new and more powerful abilities as they continue to advance in levels. We don't have the specifics on how specialization will work yet, but I believe that it could be pulled off in a similar way. To the best of my knowledge, we won't have AA's until a future expansion at the very soonest. To me, that makes each character much less unique. I am and always will be a huge fan of alternate advancement and seeing as it won't be something we can enjoy at launch, I feel that specialization has an opportunity to step up and fill that void. It's a much simpler system in the grand scheme of things and can provide that long-term progression that many end-game players crave. I am genuinely concerned about gear becoming the only thing we can work towards at max level.
So again ... just how big of an emphasis will there be on the word "situational" in Pantheon? Take a loot at: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/ ; --
1) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/living_codex/
2) Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
3) NPC Dispositions & Behaviors
4) Colored Mana System
5) Situational Gear
For me, all 5 of those seem to promote the idea of "situational" combat. It's also discussed on the "Game Features" and "Game Tenets" pages to some degree, as well as the FAQ. It appears that strategizing will be very important in the world of Terminus. Picking the right formula will be essential prior to engaging an encounter, and if you get it wrong ... it could spell big trouble. That said, I think it's very important that we have plenty of options to choose from. If we limit ourselves to a single spec, there will essentially be a "cookie cutter" hotbar or two that will be used for the majority of content. If you open it up and spread things out a bit, we could enjoy a much larger variety of "situational builds." We can have fun experimenting with unique ability combinations and making the most of our diverse kits. There is one thing I want to quote specifically that has helped me arrive to my current conclusion on how specialization might work, cited from "The Pantheon Difference" page:
"In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind)."
If the player needs to ask themselves those questions prior to engaging, I feel that it would be infinitely more satisfying if there are some extra variables tossed in there. "Who in my group is what class (and what specializations do they have unlocked?) and what kind of abilities do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?" I want VR to throw the kitchen sink at us ... and the more versatile our characters are, the more obstacles or challenging encounter mechanics they can throw our way. Players who aren't fully progressed will be at an obvious disadvantage and that is something I embrace with open arms. If you want to be dynamic and capable of adapting to more combat situations, you put in the work and you earn the right to be able to do so. Both monk specs could be desirable in their own right ... at the right time, and at the right place. Master monks are extra desirable because they can flex fill either of the monk roles. The perk of being more desired for groups would come at a cost though ... a cost that should be great. I personally believe it should be a full relevel through progeny to unlock a second specialization for the same class. Most players wouldn't want to feel "forced" into being more desirable. Bleh. Nobody should have to force you to do that ... character growth and progression is something that all players should aspire to on their own.
oneADseven said:I don't like the idea of having to live or die by permanent choices in a game that is constantly evolving. There will always be tweaks and balancing acts going on in the background that could end up altering any given specialization. You just look at the game through a different lens than I do. For whatever reason you feel that flexibility and longer progression takes away risk and adventure. I feel that it adds to both. If you allow monks to learn both specializations, they are technically viable for more adventures ... and adventures are risky business. You say that a warrior shouldn't be able to change between super tank and DPS just because. I feel they should be able to do that if they earned the means to do it through specialization progression and situational gear acquisition. It's actually a pretty common thing that people try to accomplish ... you'll see healers or tanks with their "DPS Gear" on all the time if the situation warrants it. Now it's very important to note that I wouldn't want to see this possible while in combat. Once you are engaged in combat, you are stuck with that spec until combat is over.
What I imagine is a wide variety of content in a dungeon. It's not just a matter of tank and spank all the way through. There would be a variety of boss types, variety of roamers, NPC dispositions, acclimation effects, etc. I honestly believe that VR can program a more difficult game for us if there is an understanding that we can switch specializations in between combat. They can toss out more variables or combinations of challenges in a dungeon that might not otherwise be possible if your group is 100% static and inflexible. Our hotbars are being limited for a reason. On any given fight, we'll only be able to utilize portions of our overall kit. One of the major challenges I expect in Pantheon is to try and find the sweet spot for every encounter ... getting that perfect balance of core/situational abilities right prior to engaging. I view that as a pretty big sense of risk or adventure on any given encounter. Your options are limited ... and you always have to make a "choice" on how you prepare for the upcoming battle. At the end of the day, though, the more choices we can make, the more things that can go right or wrong. The more options or variables we have to choose from, the more we can use our knowledge/expertise to overcome those challenges. By locking us to a single specialization, that would only further prohibit the choices that we can make and ultimately lead to a more one-dimensional and linear style of gameplay.
Also, I still consider your first specialization selection as a major choice. It will have a pretty massive influence on your gaming sessions for quite awhile as you will essentially be limited to a much more narrow pool of abilities to draw from until you are able to master another specialization. If you think about leveling progression, our characters learn new and more powerful abilities as they continue to advance in levels. We don't have the specifics on how specialization will work yet, but I believe that it could be pulled off in a similar way. To the best of my knowledge, we won't have AA's until a future expansion at the very soonest. To me, that makes each character much less unique. I am and always will be a huge fan of alternate advancement and seeing as it won't be something we can enjoy at launch, I feel that specialization has an opportunity to step up and fill that void. It's a much simpler system in the grand scheme of things and can provide that long-term progression that many end-game players crave. I am genuinely concerned about gear becoming the only thing we can work towards at max level.
So again ... just how big of an emphasis will there be on the word "situational" in Pantheon? Take a loot at: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/ ; --
1) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/living_codex/
2) Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
3) NPC Dispositions & Behaviors
4) Colored Mana System
5) Situational Gear
For me, all 5 of those seem to promote the idea of "situational" combat. It's also discussed on the "Game Features" and "Game Tenets" pages to some degree, as well as the FAQ. It appears that strategizing will be very important in the world of Terminus. Picking the right formula will be essential prior to engaging an encounter, and if you get it wrong ... it could spell big trouble. That said, I think it's very important that we have plenty of options to choose from. If we limit ourselves to a single spec, there will essentially be a "cookie cutter" hotbar or two that will be used for the majority of content. If you open it up and spread things out a bit, we could enjoy a much larger variety of "situational builds." We can have fun experimenting with unique ability combinations and making the most of our diverse kits. There is one thing I want to quote specifically that has helped me arrive to my current conclusion on how specialization might work, cited from "The Pantheon Difference" page:
"In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind)."
If the player needs to ask themselves those questions prior to engaging, I feel that it would be infinitely more satisfying if there are some extra variables tossed in there. "Who in my group is what class (and what specializations do they have unlocked?) and what kind of abilities do they have that may help defeat the next encounter? I want VR to throw the kitchen sink at us ... and the more versatile our characters are, the more obstacles or challenging encounter mechanics they can throw our way. Players who aren't fully progressed will be at an obvious disadvantage and that is something I embrace with open arms. If you want to be dynamic and capable of adapting to more combat situations, you put in the work and you earn the right to be able to do so. Both monk specs could be desirable in their own right ... at the right time, and at the right place. Master monks are extra desirable because they can flex fill either of the monk roles. The perk of being more desired for groups would come at a cost though ... a cost that should be great. I personally believe it should be a full relevel through progeny to unlock a second specialization for the same class. Most players wouldn't want to feel "forced" into being more desirable. Bleh. Nobody should have to force you to do that ... character growth and progression is something that all players should aspire to on their own.
Your post sums it perfectly in my perception. In the end it's about a player's skill and adaptive's behavior over being shackled to one sole purpose which as you said, makes for a linear gameplay. +1
Iksar said:If you allow players to change a specialization for every encounter you may as well play rift or wow, because that is the road you are traveling down.
Or, don't call it specialization and just call it being a class. Depending on what needs to be done, the warrior can put down the shield or the druid can put away some heals and go DPS or whatever else would otherwise be available to the classes. The road being traveled is the modern MMO specs/talent trees and not the roots of your class being a complete & distinct class with a real identity. I want to choose the path of a wizard or rogue or enchanter and make my own way playing around with all the tools. And I want the people I group with to be just as flexible in their classes to be able to possibly fill open spots in groups. Then you sometimes meet those high skill players that really know their class and pull off amazing feats putting together skills you'd never considered.
I agree with this, but feel that having access to all of the tools should be something that requires progression. The idea behind having a "master class" is to accomplish exactly what you speak of. You get to make your own way of playing around with all the tools ... you get the added flexibility to take on a secondary role in groups, and will sometimes be able to pull off amazing feats of putting together skills that others haven't seen before. That's precisely what I want as well but I want there to be a sense of progression toward getting to that point. If you are a "master monk" you should feel distinguished from the rest of the monks which fits in really nicely with the following tenet:
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
To me, that tenet screams "Master Monk!" I just think that it would feel so much more special and distinguished if you make it something that has to be earned. It should require it's fair share of blood, sweat and tears. While it's true that it could lead to groups/raids/guilds selectively seeking out master monks, that's a part of the reward for becoming one! It would give players something to continue working toward ... and if it's tied into progeny, all the better because now we get to re-experience the game and explore some of the content that we may have missed on our initial run. It would really help with the idea of extending out the "end-game" because leveling up our second generation monk in his 20's could feel just as important as doing max level content at 50. I can't get over how awesome FFXI pulled this off ... the entire game was meaningful! You could see a full group of "end-game raiders" grouped beside you in a newbie zone working on their sub-classes. It brought the community together, kept all zones relevant and populated, extended the shelf-life of the game, provided an insane amount of meaningful progression, and allowed tons and tons of "emergent gameplay" opportunities for the players to experiment with. Unless you have experienced it for yourself, it's probably tough to imagine. There has never been another game out there that had the feel of FFXI. I still say that EQOA was my favorite MMO of all time, but that's mostly due to the uncapped raids and truly open world. When it comes to progression, class flavor, and playing in a world that truly felt "alive" ... FFXI reigned as king.
oneADseven said:I agree with this, but feel that having access to all of the tools should be something that requires progression. The idea behind having a "master class" is to accomplish exactly what you speak of. You get to make your own way of playing around with all the tools ... you get the added flexibility to take on a secondary role in groups, and will sometimes be able to pull off amazing feats of putting together skills that others haven't seen before. That's precisely what I want as well but I want there to be a sense of progression toward getting to that point. If you are a "master monk" you should feel distinguished from the rest of the monks which fits in really nicely with the following tenet:
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
To me, that tenet screams "Master Monk!" I just think that it would feel so much more special and distinguished if you make it something that has to be earned. It should require it's fair share of blood, sweat and tears. While it's true that it could lead to groups/raids/guilds selectively seeking out master monks, that's a part of the reward for becoming one! It would give players something to continue working toward ... and if it's tied into progeny, all the better because now we get to re-experience the game and explore some of the content that we may have missed on our initial run. It would really help with the idea of extending out the "end-game" because leveling up our second generation monk in his 20's could feel just as important as doing max level content at 50. I can't get over how awesome FFXI pulled this off ... the entire game was meaningful! You could see a full group of "end-game raiders" grouped beside you in a newbie zone working on their sub-classes. It brought the community together, kept all zones relevant and populated, extended the shelf-life of the game, provided an insane amount of meaningful progression, and allowed tons and tons of "emergent gameplay" opportunities for the players to experiment with. Unless you have experienced it for yourself, it's probably tough to imagine. There has never been another game out there that had the feel of FFXI. I still say that EQOA was my favorite MMO of all time, but that's mostly due to the uncapped raids and truly open world. When it comes to progression, class flavor, and playing in a world that truly felt "alive" ... FFXI reigned as king.
Yes but this game is intended to have a very heavy group focus and they are also trying to break the idea that "end-game" is where the game really starts. But putting class flexibility locked behind reaching max level + an additional long journey is counter to that entirely. It will take a very long time for the average of players on a server to achieve that flexibility. If it is anything like EQ it might take casual players upwards of 9 months to a year+ to hit max level before even starting to learn another specialization, if they choose. In order for them to truly design dungeons and content through the entire game with that level of situational awareness, flexibility, and difficulty then players need to have all these tools by default as they open up while leveling naturally. They can add all kinds of class epic quests for arms and armor, for special and interesting living codex seals/brands/sigils, for rare spells, titles, and heck maybe even wild difficult quests that give your spell animation/effects more umph behind them. That kind of thing I can get behind.
@oneADseven
I aggree with most of what you said, if you choose a class you should be able to acquire all the spells and abilities that the class has to offer, it will take time but it's possible, this creates an amazing interaction with the limited hotbar, and each different hotbar setup will be a "different spec" a player that worked to unlock everything will have and advantage in terms of flexibility.
I don't agree with having to relevel to unlock the "other spec" that you didn't pick. Developing and proggressing a spec shouldn't be an interface where you spend points or invest xp, it should be about finding and acquiring the abilities and spells that you want and need, If you're a monk it makes no sense that "oh you can't use or learn this monk spell because you're not X spec", you already choose a class in the creating menu that restricted what abilities and spells you could learn and utilized, no need to restrict it even more through the means of an interface, just let players choose what spells they fell are the best and fit thier playstyle the best, let them go out into the world work hard for them and create their own "spec".
Iksar said:Group Lead: "Group looking for 1 DPS for King camp! PST" Group Lead: "Group looking for 1 DPS for King camp! PST"
Monk: "Can I join up? 42 Soul Monk" VS Monk: "Can I join up? 42 Monk"
GL: "Sorry, really only looking for DPS specs" GL: "Come on down!"
For one you have no wy to know this is even true, even though it says off tank doesn't mean he loses his role as being dps, for one VR has made it clear that when you pick a class you play a certain role and a monk class is dps so therefore both are both specced towards dps with one being a lil bit more dps than the other both both filling the dps slot, in other words both specs will be doing more dps than a tank/healer/CC class
Riahuf22 said:Iksar said:Group Lead: "Group looking for 1 DPS for King camp! PST" Group Lead: "Group looking for 1 DPS for King camp! PST"
Monk: "Can I join up? 42 Soul Monk" VS Monk: "Can I join up? 42 Monk"
GL: "Sorry, really only looking for DPS specs" GL: "Come on down!"
For one you have no wy to know this is even true, even though it says off tank doesn't mean he loses his role as being dps, for one VR has made it clear that when you pick a class you play a certain role and a monk class is dps so therefore both are both specced towards dps with one being a lil bit more dps than the other both both filling the dps slot, in other words both specs will be doing more dps than a tank/healer/CC class
And you have no way of knowing it isn't. Just because both monk specs are better DPS than some non DPS class doesn't mean people won't want the "dps spec" anyway. The point is that they are potentially opening themselves up to this kind of min/max meta game which has extremely unhealthy effects on the game as a whole.
Not true Megaera. VR has yet to confirm their stance on specializations or whether or not "master classes" will exist in Pantheon. It's my understanding that this very topic is something that is being actively worked on ... it definitely hasn't been all the way fleshed out yet. We haven't even seen half of the standard class reveals yet, let alone delve into the finer details of specialization for each and every class. If you look at some of the kickstarter material, dual specializations were a thing. I am really looking forward to hearing about whatever decision the team comes up with ... but as it stands, it's still very much up in the air.
jpedrote said:@oneADseven
I aggree with most of what you said, if you choose a class you should be able to acquire all the spells and abilities that the class has to offer, it will take time but it's possible, this creates an amazing interaction with the limited hotbar, and each different hotbar setup will be a "different spec" a player that worked to unlock everything will have and advantage in terms of flexibility.
I don't agree with having to relevel to unlock the "other spec" that you didn't pick. Developing and proggressing a spec shouldn't be an interface where you spend points or invest xp, it should be about finding and acquiring the abilities and spells that you want and need, If you're a monk it makes no sense that "oh you can't use or learn this monk spell because you're not X spec", you already choose a class in the creating menu that restricted what abilities and spells you could learn and utilized, no need to restrict it even more through the means of an interface, just let players choose what spells they fell are the best and fit thier playstyle the best, let them go out into the world work hard for them and create their own "spec".
I could get behind that. I only recommended progeny because it's already a planned system and I know it has a ton of potential ... I just want to see it used as something super meaningful rather than it not being a big deal. I would love for various combat arts and abilities to be unlocked through epic style quests.
Krixus said:Riahuf22 said:Iksar said:Group Lead: "Group looking for 1 DPS for King camp! PST" Group Lead: "Group looking for 1 DPS for King camp! PST"
Monk: "Can I join up? 42 Soul Monk" VS Monk: "Can I join up? 42 Monk"
GL: "Sorry, really only looking for DPS specs" GL: "Come on down!"
For one you have no wy to know this is even true, even though it says off tank doesn't mean he loses his role as being dps, for one VR has made it clear that when you pick a class you play a certain role and a monk class is dps so therefore both are both specced towards dps with one being a lil bit more dps than the other both both filling the dps slot, in other words both specs will be doing more dps than a tank/healer/CC class
And you have no way of knowing it isn't. Just because both monk specs are better DPS than some non DPS class doesn't mean people won't want the "dps spec" anyway. The point is that they are potentially opening themselves up to this kind of min/max meta game which has extremely unhealthy effects on the game as a whole.
And again with this in mind neither do you, and also unlike you i look at a glass half full, instead of empty, so thereore i am going to believe that even though the soul spec might be doing slighty less dps than body that they will have something to bring tot he table that body wont to make it just as desireable as body.
oneADseven said:I could get behind that. I only recommended progeny because it's already a planned system and I know it has a ton of potential ... I just want to see it used as something super meaningful rather than it not being a big deal. I would love for various combat arts and abilities to be unlocked through epic style quests.
I don't mind that mastering something takes a huge amount of time, but needing to restar the leveling process is a bit much, as Iksar said "break the idea that "end-game" is where the game really starts. But putting class flexibility locked behind reaching max level + an additional long journey is counter to that entirely. It will take a very long time for the average of players on a server to achieve that flexibility. If it is anything like EQ it might take casual players upwards of 9 months to a year+ to hit max level before even starting to learn another specialization," I agree with him, releveling will take a huge ammount of time, and locking something as powerful as multiple specs behind releveling seems to make it mandatory, you would need to stop all the progress you have with your guild, groups or friends and level back up again to have an extra flexibility, were not talking about 1-2 weeks to relevel we're possibly talking about months, that's why I really don't like that idea.
Megaera said:I do believe somewhere in the tenets of the game they state that their will be uniqueness to classes and character, and that each has a role to fill.They didnt say that x class can fill multiple roles at an optimal level.
yes and i still hope they stick to that. but when you look at the recent monk reveals (can do everything except healing?) it's understandable that people have hopes/fears/doubts.
jpedrote said:oneADseven said:I could get behind that. I only recommended progeny because it's already a planned system and I know it has a ton of potential ... I just want to see it used as something super meaningful rather than it not being a big deal. I would love for various combat arts and abilities to be unlocked through epic style quests.
I don't mind that mastering something takes a huge amount of time, but needing to restar the leveling process is a bit much, as Iksar said "break the idea that "end-game" is where the game really starts. But putting class flexibility locked behind reaching max level + an additional long journey is counter to that entirely. It will take a very long time for the average of players on a server to achieve that flexibility. If it is anything like EQ it might take casual players upwards of 9 months to a year+ to hit max level before even starting to learn another specialization," I agree with him, releveling will take a huge ammount of time, and locking something as powerful as multiple specs behind releveling seems to make it mandatory, you would need to stop all the progress you have with your guild, groups or friends and level back up again to have an extra flexibility, were not talking about 1-2 weeks to relevel we're possibly talking about months, that's why I really don't like that idea.
This is something I could get behind, potentially. If you give (almost) all the abilities to a class, so in this case Monk gets both body and soul while leveling to 50. Then they have some epic quests to obtain some, or have to find some hidden away grandmasters for some or ancient scrolls/rare drops. Maybe the epic quests each allow the player to specialize however they wish, being able to pick an abilitity to get a small boost or added utility. This way every class has (almost) all the tools (and definitely all the key tools) of their class and can then develop where they want their personal strengths to be.
letsdance said:Megaera said:I do believe somewhere in the tenets of the game they state that their will be uniqueness to classes and character, and that each has a role to fill.They didnt say that x class can fill multiple roles at an optimal level.
yes and i still hope they stick to that. but when you look at the recent monk reveals (can do everything except healing?) it's understandable that people have hopes/fears/doubts.
This is one of the main reasons i want it to where your have to choice switch spec you want to be granted a monk sole purpose will be to dps, but with soul you lose a bit of your dps to be able to situationaly off tank, while maybe having some CC, as for the body spec hopefully sacrafices everything (but pulling, for FD in my eyes is a core ability) to simply dps, with no CC/off tank abilty, this could be what sets soul as being equal to body, if body can do lets say 50dps at max level but cant do any CC/off tank and a soul monk is at 40ish dps but can off tank and CC it makes a big enough of a difference to either you want to know your maxxing out your dps to watch the target die faster or having your dps lowered to possibily making the fight easier through off tanking and CCing to minimize the amount of damage that the tank could be taking.