Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

First Person Animations

    • 2752 posts
    May 2, 2017 11:38 PM PDT

    I tried searching for an answer but I can't seem to find anything, but are there currently plans to show attack animations in first person? I know it was a relatively minor thing but I haven't seen it since EQ and I really miss that. I love first person but have found I can't do it without the animations. 

    • 249 posts
    May 3, 2017 1:16 PM PDT

    I'd like to see these as well. Hardcore Henry (YouTube it) could be a great perspective to start with

    • 1468 posts
    May 3, 2017 1:19 PM PDT

    Although I don't often use first person it would be cool to have this in for the rare occasions I do use first person.

    • 2752 posts
    May 3, 2017 1:25 PM PDT

    I don't mind even if it looks just as basic as EQ. 

    • 1281 posts
    May 3, 2017 3:24 PM PDT

    +1 for this.

    At first I think it would probably be a much later or after launch add on, but then I remember they do already have some people working on animations.

    Maybe?

    • 839 posts
    May 3, 2017 5:52 PM PDT

    Aye, another +1 here

    Would love to see weapon animations in first person!  It was one of a few things ESO did well.

    • 2419 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:08 PM PDT

    As a definite fan of playing in 1st person perspective, seeing my arms and weapons moving as I perform actions is really important as it helps bring me into the game world.

    • 416 posts
    May 3, 2017 7:59 PM PDT

    I 100% agree.

    • 9115 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:05 PM PDT

    This iso something we can definitely look into but it is just not a main concern right now as we prepare for testing :) 

    • 2752 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:10 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    This iso something we can definitely look into but it is just not a main concern right now as we prepare for testing :) 

    Thank you Kilsin. I saw the latest stream with Cohh and when he went into first person it made me think of it, just can't argue for using first person if you just see nothing happening but your chat log scrolling. 

    • 839 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:17 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    This iso something we can definitely look into but it is just not a main concern right now as we prepare for testing :) 

    The more regular use of this bolded phrase from devs is very exciting :)

    • 238 posts
    May 3, 2017 11:56 PM PDT

    I very much liked 1st person in EQ vanilla (only real way to play a monk) but since then I generally go 3rd. On an occasion I try 1st in games and am very disappointed when you don’t see weapons swinging on your screen.

    I almost feel like the “entire” point of first is to get that feeling of looking through the eyes of the character and seeing what they would see. First person view without hands is in my book not worthy of its name =-).

    I don’t know how much work it is but it’s the kind of detail that really shows that a development team care about the little details and that my friends makes something go from good to great. I would say in a game like Pantheon that’s trying to capture some of that old magic this is practically a requirement. Now obviously I don’t put this above other things at this point but on release day I think allot of people will be shocked if playing in first has no animations.


    This post was edited by Xonth at May 3, 2017 11:59 PM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    May 4, 2017 3:08 AM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    Kilsin said:

    This iso something we can definitely look into but it is just not a main concern right now as we prepare for testing :) 

    The more regular use of this bolded phrase from devs is very exciting :)

    Yeah, now that the two streams are behind us (which take up considerably more manpower, resources and time than people think - although we still love doing them) it is time to knuckle down and get back to working hard on preparing the game for testing :)

    • 37 posts
    March 11, 2018 1:39 AM PST

    Hello,

     

    will Pantheon have a first person view with visible body and dynamic shadows ? that would be so great ! when playing a mmorpg i'm looking for maximum immersion and this feature would add to immersion greatly !

     

    i really loved first person view with visible body (and shadows) on vanguard saga of heroes, so i have hope Pantheon will have that feature as well !

     

    please make it happens VR ! :D


    This post was edited by coeurdelion at March 11, 2018 1:40 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    March 11, 2018 2:36 PM PDT

    I used to enjoy First Person in EQ, but then that's what 3D always seemed to be in those days.

    These days I actually prefer third person and I like to zoom out to get something like the situational awareness you really would have with monster stopming around you and swinging weapons at you.

    First person doesn't really help my immersion, as I never really play a character like it's *me*, I play a character much more like it's a fantasy story I'm writing and I like to see that character.

    • 1281 posts
    March 11, 2018 8:38 PM PDT

    I play in first person almost exclusively.  I certainly hope that they have decent first person cobat animation.

     

    Edited to add:

     

    In fact, I prefer first person so much, I won't play a game that doesn't offer it.


    This post was edited by Kalok at March 11, 2018 9:19 PM PDT
    • 37 posts
    March 12, 2018 12:40 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I used to enjoy First Person in EQ, but then that's what 3D always seemed to be in those days.

    These days I actually prefer third person and I like to zoom out to get something like the situational awareness you really would have with monster stopming around you and swinging weapons at you.

    First person doesn't really help my immersion, as I never really play a character like it's *me*, I play a character much more like it's a fantasy story I'm writing and I like to see that character.

     

    typical syndrom of modern fastfood mmorpg gameplay mechanics, you have to play in third person view or it's unplayable.

     

    it was not the case in either eq or vanguard, slow yet technical combat sytem, where you dont have to jump everywhere and spamm brainlessly hotkeys, for both eq and vanguard firs person view is perfectly playable, and i really hope that will be the case for Pantheon.


    This post was edited by coeurdelion at March 12, 2018 12:41 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    March 12, 2018 4:49 AM PDT

    coeurdelion said:

    disposalist said:

    I used to enjoy First Person in EQ, but then that's what 3D always seemed to be in those days.

    These days I actually prefer third person and I like to zoom out to get something like the situational awareness you really would have with monster stopming around you and swinging weapons at you.

    First person doesn't really help my immersion, as I never really play a character like it's *me*, I play a character much more like it's a fantasy story I'm writing and I like to see that character.

     

    typical syndrom of modern fastfood mmorpg gameplay mechanics, you have to play in third person view or it's unplayable.

    it was not the case in either eq or vanguard, slow yet technical combat sytem, where you dont have to jump everywhere and spamm brainlessly hotkeys, for both eq and vanguard firs person view is perfectly playable, and i really hope that will be the case for Pantheon.

    Yeah, lol, third person = twitch-spam-hotkey-fastfood play! All innovations are modern conveniences ruining the world!!!11!

    Breaking news: Not everything in Pantheon will be like classic EQ. Kilsin said above it's "not a main concern" and they always play third person in their streams. Maybe point your insults at Kilsin and VR and see how far that gets you? Or perhaps let's leave the insulting over-reactions aside and discuss...

    If you don't get how oddly claustrophobic first person can feel or how it's not the opitomy of immersive technique then, that's your opinion. That sort of thing is very subjective after all.

    I always found it pretty immersion-breaking to have no clue a dragon is pummeling my avatar in the back, but, no, it didn't make it 'unplayble' for me - I managed for many years with lots of the immersion breaking stuff in EQ because of how overall brilliant it was - but given the option in this area, it's not my preference and given we're 20 years on, I'd prefer they make innovations in Pantheon's 3D presentation over EQ/VG.

    In fact, in games where you can do both, I tend to use both, depending on what feels right. I don't doubt they will add a first person, even though it usually means work adding lots of extra animations because just changing the viewpoint usually looks bad/weird. But I'd actually like both and what if we could all be happy?

    As a 'cinematic' technique, first-person is barely ever used and there's a reason for that. Instead of doing what you might think and making you feel 'part of' the action, it's jarringly weird and unrealistic because it's really not like the human experience. It results in making the viewer feel detatched. I'm not a student of cinema and it's just my opinion (though I just did a little research and it's a common opinion), but there's something to be said for being 'an observer' being natural; it's of course how we experience other lives in reality. Actually being in someone else's head is not natural.

    Hardcore Henry, mentioned above, worked (for some, including me, though it wasn't 'a hit' by any means) because it was extremely tongue-in-cheek and over-the-top. You ignored the fact that to see him light a cigarette or pull a grenade pin he held it up in front of 'his eyes' like he was short-sighted or drunk or both. You ignored the reduction of his human field of view giving you horrible tunnel vision and a claustrophobic feel because that fit in with his feelings of not knowing who he was or what was happening in the narrative.

    But why does first person work in games in most situations? Like Hardcore Henry, most of these games are supposed to feel fantastical or over-the-top, so that works, but I think the main reason is in a game we have control. We overlook a lot of experiencial weirdness because we have control of that experience so it still feels somewhat normal.

    Even so, in first person shooters, for example, there is almost always a mini-map showing you where your allies and enemies are, because even with sophisticated surround sound, you get nothing like a natural feeling sense of your immediate surroundings. They do things like throw up arrow cues and blood-red glowing areas on a HUD so you know you just got shot in the back, which brings me back to why I often prefer third person in an RPG:

    When I get hit in melee it is jarringly unimmersive to not know I just got back-stabbed, for example. Common options are: -

    1) Stop looking at the fight and look at the combat log. See that "rogue back-stabbed you for 3 damage" then have to spin around 180+ degrees in the 3D view to find it.
    2) Have some superimposed HUD indicators like you're wearing a fighter-pilot helmet, showing damage direction and type.
    3) Have a minimap with enemies on it.
    4) Have a third person view.

    For me, option 4 is actually the much more normal and natural feeling, though option 3 can actually be done so as to not be too 'fighter pilot' feeling.

    Everything in a game is an analog of reality, though. You can't actually feel an in-game dagger pierce your back and even if the tech was there you wouldn't want to.  Is zooming out to third person less 'immersive' than being unfeeling and oblivious to a sword strike? Worse than having to look at text scroll by to see what's happened? A super-imposed HUD? A minimap?

    Let's discuss rather than dismiss ;^)

    • 37 posts
    March 12, 2018 8:28 AM PDT

    i never insulted anyone. i just say modern fastfood games are unplayable in first person view cause their gameplay mechanics cant be manageable with that view. typical example is wow with all AoE and adds coming from everywhere in most raids or even dungeons, if you play in first person view you are dead.

     

    in eq, vanguard, i played almost entirely in first person view and i was able to do raids and group content just fine.

     

    i just want a first person view in Pantheon, with visible body + dynamic shadows, of course i dont mind if the game  has also a third person view, but why limiting the choice a player can have ? some here enjoy playing their mmorpgs with first person view while others third person view, that's totally fine.

     

    i'm just asking here if VR plan to make it happen that's all, and if i seemed to insult something, it's definitely not you, but the "modern mmorpg archetype" which i'm sick of.

    • 115 posts
    March 12, 2018 2:46 PM PDT

    Am all for 1st person animations... if... there is an option to turn them off for the occasion when you do not want to see them.

     

    (Raids, etc)


    This post was edited by Bonechip at March 12, 2018 2:47 PM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    March 12, 2018 6:32 PM PDT

    coeurdelion said:i never insulted anyone

    Apologies if I misread it, but you did quote me saying I prefer third person, then say that was a typical syndrome of modern fastfood mechanics and went on to associate brainless spamming. It felt like a pretty pointed negative comment to me.

    Maybe we didn't do the same dungeons or raids in EQ, but I remember plenty of occassions where first person was very dangerous when attempting to avoid patrols or adds or respawns and then knowing where their attack was coming from when they did turn up.

    I certainly am fed up of the modern trend of MMORPGs, also, but I guess I've never much equated a third person view with being a great cause or symptom of their many evils.

    • 1281 posts
    March 12, 2018 6:46 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    coeurdelion said:i never insulted anyone

    Apologies if I misread it, but you did quote me saying I prefer third person, then say that was a typical syndrome of modern fastfood mechanics and went on to associate brainless spamming. It felt like a pretty pointed negative comment to me.

    Maybe we didn't do the same dungeons or raids in EQ, but I remember plenty of occassions where first person was very dangerous when attempting to avoid patrols or adds or respawns and then knowing where their attack was coming from when they did turn up.

    I certainly am fed up of the modern trend of MMORPGs, also, but I guess I've never much equated a third person view with being a great cause or symptom of their many evils.

    I am going to reply to this one only because your postis so long, but I am replying to a piece of it.

    I never had a problem knowing in EQ, EQ2, or Vanguard when something dangerous was going on beside or behind me, and I *ONLY* play in first person mode.

    I hope that they have agood third person for the people that choose to play it.  I also hope that they have a good first person for those that choose to play it.

    • 1281 posts
    March 12, 2018 8:14 PM PDT

    I'm not worried as much about being able to look down and see my legs as I am weapons. I think showing arms/weapons would be a good entry point into first person animations. If more resources can be spent, maybe add optional head bobbing and the ability to look down and see your body and equipment.

    • 2756 posts
    March 13, 2018 3:46 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    I'm not worried as much about being able to look down and see my legs as I am weapons. I think showing arms/weapons would be a good entry point into first person animations. If more resources can be spent, maybe add optional head bobbing and the ability to look down and see your body and equipment.

    In Battlefield 1 it's all first person (it's a first person shooter, after all) but you look down at your body and feet and it looks hilariously weird and ridiculous. As I've said above, what you'd think would look cool when reproduced in a computer screen just does not.  I'm sure people appreciate it, but it's like when you try and use the same camera lens to take a landscape photo, then do a close up of someone and they end up with a huge nose and tiny piggy eyes (apologies to anyone whose loved ones have huge noses and tiny piggy eyes).

    Normally, running around with a 'computer' POV (ie. maybe 90 degrees if you're lucky, though probably not, vertically) you'd hardly ever see your arms or weapons. Maybe if you did an overhand chop.

    In BF1 they made special animations for the weapons. As you can imagine in a WW1 FPS they are quite focal.  They look awesome. The detail and quality they've put into animations of the different WW1 guns firing and reloading is fantastic, though, of course, again due to the view point not actually being realistic, they've had to make huge development effort to achieve those animations as they have to all be specially created so they look 'good' where simply making held weapons visible from the eye level point-of-view would look terrible (weapons look awful with big noses and piggy eyes).

    As I've said, I'd like both, but good first person animations is, I believe, a large effort and bad first person animations are really bad for immersion.

    I'd like a first person viewpoint, but if they can't make the effort over good additional animation I think just a 1P POV with no animations (and where you can't see yourself, really) would be better.

    • 160 posts
    March 13, 2018 7:38 AM PDT

    I agree that the first-person view should be done either with no animations or with good animations, not with crappy ones.

    I played EQ almost exclusively in 1st person, and I was leading raids there... and never had problems with situational awareness. There were a few times when I switched to 3rd person, for specific situations, but 95% of the time I used the 1st person.

    The only problem came in games with bad animation - when the whole camera (supposedly from the viewpoint of the eyes of my character) started moving, up-down, left-right, to account for what would be the body movement while swinging a sword - but from my viewpoint it only made it hard to follow anything.

     

    The 3rd person view in some games was helping with situational awareness only because they were way too fast, things were happening too fast, and there was no time to properly turn around, look at the situation (even if you were quick about it) and see what's going on. But then, I don't really want a twitchy game. I want a game where I have time to look at the situation, and talk with the people in my group (or raid).

     

    The game, of course, cannot be everything to everyone. Either it's an EQ-clone or an... online, group-Diablo clone. It cannot be both. And since it was advertised to follow the path of EQ and Vanguard, I assume it will be closer to that than to fast games where you mash the keyboard and mouse all the time, just to hit all the spells and icons.

     

    I prefer immersion, story, interaction with people - talking to people - and not a spell/skill spamfest.

    And I prefer being the character to playing the character. Thus, I prefer the 1st person view. Just my preference.

     

    Even just 1st person POV without animations for start, add animations as you can.

     

     


    This post was edited by Aethor at March 13, 2018 7:40 AM PDT