Forums » The Rogue

Hmm, no perma stealth...

    • 353 posts
    May 2, 2017 9:13 AM PDT

    One thing I took away from last weeks stream was that rogues won't be able to perma stealth because it will now use up a resource.

     

    Not sure I really like this idea and I was considering going rogue and now may choose something different.

     

    As a long time rogue player sometimes you have to stand around for a while waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike or pull and with a constant ticking down resource I would just feel too limited.

     

    Every ambush now comes with a time limit. I hope this changes.

     

     

    Thanks for reading,

    Kiz~

    • 474 posts
    May 2, 2017 1:03 PM PDT

    didn't they say that it used stamina while moving? I assumed if you stopped walking you'd maintain or regain stamina. Maybe I misunderstood.

    • 194 posts
    May 3, 2017 8:01 AM PDT

    I am sure it is only temp.We rogues need perma stealth for a  number of reasons ,CDs ,SA stuff like that.

     

    • 4320 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:34 AM PDT

    kellindil said:

    didn't they say that it used stamina while moving? I assumed if you stopped walking you'd maintain or regain stamina. Maybe I misunderstood.

    Shadow Walk consumes mana "while activated." I think that means that it is a toggle with constant mana drain. So it can remain toggled as long as you have mana to spend on it. However, judging by Kilsin's blue bar, the drain appears to be very gradual, so you should still have enough time to do what you need to do.

    01:06:50 - Shadow Walk

    It's worth mentioning that this is just one example of a sneak/hide mechanic. That's not to say that there may not be other similar abilities shown in the future, which may or may not have indefinite durations. However, personally, I don't think it's bad to make that sort of thing limited. It increases the difficulty by forcing player action, managing resources, and determining the best time to use the ability... Rather than allowing you to just be inactive and avoid detection for as long as you want. But as I said, the mana cost of Shadow Walk is currently quite low, so while technically finite, the duration can be pretty long if you so choose.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at May 3, 2017 9:39 AM PDT
    • 215 posts
    May 5, 2017 4:04 AM PDT

    We also don't understand the mana pool size or regen at higher levels yet.  

    If there is a mana drain associated with Stealth it may be difficult to maintain at low levels and at higher levels be very trivial to maintain which makes sense to me...we just need to see what it feels like in game I think


    This post was edited by Warben at May 5, 2017 4:05 AM PDT
    • 35 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:07 AM PDT
    My concern with this is for CRs, if you're deep in a dungeon and wipe, you used to be able to rely on a rogue doing CR and getting everyone's gear back. I'm not a fan of making CR difficult by making it take more time to get your corpse back just for the sake of making it more difficult.

    If you don't know anyone who can summon or nobody is available, and you don't have 4 hours to spend doing a CR and a rogue can't perma stealth and get corpses then you're just SoL. Not a very fun mechanic.

    I'm fine with CRs but don't make them more difficult just for the sake of making them difficult.
    • 1173 posts
    October 14, 2017 11:00 PM PDT

    Moarcrits said: My concern with this is for CRs, if you're deep in a dungeon and wipe, you used to be able to rely on a rogue doing CR and getting everyone's gear back. I'm not a fan of making CR difficult by making it take more time to get your corpse back just for the sake of making it more difficult. If you don't know anyone who can summon or nobody is available, and you don't have 4 hours to spend doing a CR and a rogue can't perma stealth and get corpses then you're just SoL. Not a very fun mechanic. I'm fine with CRs but don't make them more difficult just for the sake of making them difficult.

     

    I dont think we have enough information to worry about limited stealth being an issue for CRing.  As was said before, we have no bearing on how long it will last at higher levels, if thats 1 particular type of stealth or what!

    • 564 posts
    October 29, 2017 8:30 PM PDT

    Personally I'd like there to be 2 stealth modes. One can be done all the time and is just the usual stealth youd expect someone to be capable of.

    This one could work depending on an npc's perception abilities like sight/hearing/day or night vision/smell/tremorsense, etc. And take no stamina/mana, and have no time limit, as it realistically wouldn't.

    After that you could then have the mana stealth mode which turns you flat out invisible like what appears in the streams.

    My 2 cents, I feel like it would make more sense this way, and make for a much more interesting mechanic where you turn on the super stealth mode whenever a sight reliant enemy is about to turn around.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at November 5, 2017 11:29 PM PST
    • 29 posts
    April 19, 2018 2:49 PM PDT

    Resource drain while moving would be ok, I guess.  Not a fan of the idea but you could just stop periodically and regen before continuing your CR.  It would actually suck, but i might get over it.

    If there is no mechanism to be permanently invis (even if only standing still), I would be devestated.  I've played a rogue through EQlive, p99 and on a EQ TLP currently - I AM a rogue.  This might actually be a deal breaker and make me choose a different class. 

    To compare it to the monk's trademark ability - Is FD going to drain mana while down, so that you are forced to get up and aggro a mob when it lingers over you too long?

    I really don't like this idea, please don't do it.

    • 1628 posts
    April 19, 2018 11:53 PM PDT

    spryler said:

    Resource drain while moving would be ok, I guess.  Not a fan of the idea but you could just stop periodically and regen before continuing your CR.  It would actually suck, but i might get over it.

    If there is no mechanism to be permanently invis (even if only standing still), I would be devestated.  I've played a rogue through EQlive, p99 and on a EQ TLP currently - I AM a rogue.  This might actually be a deal breaker and make me choose a different class. 

    To compare it to the monk's trademark ability - Is FD going to drain mana while down, so that you are forced to get up and aggro a mob when it lingers over you too long?

    I really don't like this idea, please don't do it.

     

    Hard to tell for now, we only had streamers use the ability :

     

    Shadow Walk
    Self20 Endurance

    2 Mana/2 seconds

    While active, you are invisible to living, non-magical targets, and can move around freely at reduced speed. (26m range, Instant cast, 1s cooldown)

     

    But note of them tried using :

     

    Hide
    SelfN/ABecome invisible to living, non-magical targets for up to 1 hour. Any movement or action will cancel the effect. (26m range, Instant cast, 12s cooldown)

    And

    Sneak
    SelfN/AEnables silent movement. Must be behind your enemy to remain unseen. (26m range, Instant cast, 8s cooldown)

    Shadow walk might be meant to be an "in combat invis" with a drain associated while the combo of hide and sneak could provide either the same results as EQ's, either a more tricky stealth design where you have to scout sneaking in ennemie's back, and stop to hide when you risk beeing seen, only to resume  sneak scouting once the danger is gone.

     

    • 746 posts
    April 20, 2018 8:50 AM PDT

    spryler said:

    Resource drain while moving would be ok, I guess.  Not a fan of the idea but you could just stop periodically and regen before continuing your CR.  It would actually suck, but i might get over it.

    If there is no mechanism to be permanently invis (even if only standing still), I would be devestated.  I've played a rogue through EQlive, p99 and on a EQ TLP currently - I AM a rogue.  This might actually be a deal breaker and make me choose a different class. 

    To compare it to the monk's trademark ability - Is FD going to drain mana while down, so that you are forced to get up and aggro a mob when it lingers over you too long?

    I really don't like this idea, please don't do it.

    I can certainly understand how a change of this nature would give you pause - you identified with the Everquest Rogue (and maybe others) because it's particular toolset resonated with you on some level.  That's great, falling in love with a class and learning everything there is to know about it is a true joy.  However, sometimes I think we make the mistake of looking at Pantheon through the Everquest lens, which can prevent us from taking Pantheon for what it is on its own.  The fact is, Pantheon is not Everquest.  We do both games a great disservice when we try to pluck individual mechanics, abilities or skills from each and try to scrutinize them as equals.  In this case, I feel like we just have to have some faith in the fact that the mechanics and skills VR have laid out for each class is in an attempt to create a cohesive whole for the vision of Pantheon, not Everquest.  Does that mean that every decision and design feature will be flawless?  No, of course not.  But there is a vision for how this game will play and how each class will interact with this world (not Norrath), and I think we should view these decisions as such.  

    Just a quick comment regarding your comparison with the Monk - while I understand why you would draw these comparisons, you're sort of comparing apples to oranges.  While Joppa alluded to Feign Death being the Monk iconic ability, Stealth (or complete invisibility, as you mentioned) is not the Rogue's - that would be Improvised Alchemy according to the website.

    Iconic Ability: Improvised Alchemy
    Embracing life on the edge, the Rogue calls upon their knowledge of poisons and mixtures to whip up an improvised potion to hurl at their opponents. Such creations aren’t made with the level of care a dedicated Alchemist might craft, so the Rogue never knows for sure what effect they’re going to come up with until they see the result in combat .

    The bottom line for me is this - Pantheon and Everquest are two different games, with different goals, mechanics, interactions, etc.  And while there are invariably going to be overlaps, we should expect there to be changes and try to embrace them.  We don't know how Pantheon is going to play, but I have to believe that the design decisions are made to for a reason, and eventually we will get the chance to see those choices play out and gain insight as to why they were made.  But I think it's erroneous to try to scrutinize individual skills independent of the whole.


    This post was edited by Nikademis at April 20, 2018 8:51 AM PDT
    • 29 posts
    April 20, 2018 10:30 AM PDT

    Good points.  I am chasing the Nostalgia of EQ, for sure.  I was in Blackburrow grouping with other people for my very first time.  I asked my group members to watch my character while I hit hide/sneak to see if they could see me.  When they said they couldn't it was an amazing revelation.  I'll never forget that moment and how amazingly cool I thought it was.  It's just really really hard to let go of that moment and the mechanic that made it possible.  But you are right, all things must change and if that is not part of Pantheon I will still most likely play a rogue.

    Having said that, the above linked Hide Sneak abilities seem to indicate that this mechanic IS in the game.  I had not seen those tooltips before, and while one hour isn't permanent it is more than adequately long.  This could change of course, but it gives me hope.

    • 746 posts
    April 20, 2018 11:01 AM PDT

    spryler said:

    Good points.  I am chasing the Nostalgia of EQ, for sure.  I was in Blackburrow grouping with other people for my very first time.  I asked my group members to watch my character while I hit hide/sneak to see if they could see me.  When they said they couldn't it was an amazing revelation.  I'll never forget that moment and how amazingly cool I thought it was.  It's just really really hard to let go of that moment and the mechanic that made it possible.  But you are right, all things must change and if that is not part of Pantheon I will still most likely play a rogue.

    Having said that, the above linked Hide Sneak abilities seem to indicate that this mechanic IS in the game.  I had not seen those tooltips before, and while one hour isn't permanent it is more than adequately long.  This could change of course, but it gives me hope.

    Oh totally, and I agree with your sentiment 100%.  And I'll admit, I'm guilty of chasing nostalgia too.  Either way, I think it's clear that you have an affinity for the Rogue class so I would go with it and see if it works for you.  It's unlikely that anything will ever top or even meet our Everquest nostalgia (real or confabulated), but the Pantheon Rogue may just be a fun new take on a classic.  And it may even resonate with you in a new way - at least I hope it does!

    Slightly off topic, I'm hoping for fresh new takes on all the Pantheon classes.  While familiarity is great, the last thing I want is copy/pasted Everquest classes.  Recognizable but different would be my preference.

    • 2466 posts
    April 20, 2018 11:54 AM PDT

    I think it would be a mistake to NOT have a long duration invis/stealth like hide/sneak from EQ in the game for rogue. It's extremely important for corpse retreival. 

    • 745 posts
    April 23, 2018 2:29 PM PDT

    Just give me a way to scout ahead for the puller, and give me a way to pull bodies back to camp. I am hoping for invis to stay on for when i log back in, incase i have to camp out in a nasty area. When i played my rogue i stayed invis in dungeons like 80% of the time just incase puller decided to wipe us or another group was griefing us.

    • 687 posts
    April 26, 2018 8:38 AM PDT

    I'm curious as to how it will work with threat.  Will it be like EQ where it had no effect once the rogue was in combat or will it be similar to more modern rogue stealth where it lowers threat, or in some cases allows the rogue to remove themselves from combat if they are out of combat for X amount of time.  There are a lot of mechanics I'm curious about in regard to threat management/CC/Aggro wipe... Rogue sneak/hide compared to monk/bard/ranger sneak?  Racial hide/sneak abilities?  Playing an Elf with the hide skill as a class that didn't normally have any way to ghetto invis was a great way to be able to go AFK to run to the bathroom for a minute without worrying about dying... you could just "consider" an NPC to determine if they scowled at you or were indifferent to determine if your hide was working.  Some other mechanics I'm curious about include Dire Lord FD, Enchanter memory blurr/invis, and Mage/Necro pet pulling but those are for a different thread.    

    I can't wait to try a lot of the classes to find out haha!


    This post was edited by Darch at April 26, 2018 8:38 AM PDT
    • 19 posts
    April 26, 2018 11:25 AM PDT

    I don't think a lack of perma-stealth is necessarily a bad thing, in fact I find to be the opposite. Perma-stealth is kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card in many instances, and it's also been used extensively for griefing in many other games.

    • 99 posts
    April 26, 2018 11:35 AM PDT

    StromVillain said:

    I don't think a lack of perma-stealth is necessarily a bad thing, in fact I find to be the opposite. Perma-stealth is kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card in many instances, and it's also been used extensively for griefing in many other games.

    I agree.  In SW: ToR there were some missions you could avoid pretty much all the combat involved if you could stealth (invis).  Or at least make certain mobs be able to detect invis PC's; much like how Blindsense works in D&D (5th).

    • 19 posts
    April 27, 2018 4:20 AM PDT

    Nightsong said:

    StromVillain said:

    I don't think a lack of perma-stealth is necessarily a bad thing, in fact I find to be the opposite. Perma-stealth is kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card in many instances, and it's also been used extensively for griefing in many other games.

    I agree.  In SW: ToR there were some missions you could avoid pretty much all the combat involved if you could stealth (invis).  Or at least make certain mobs be able to detect invis PC's; much like how Blindsense works in D&D (5th).

    You know what would be cool? If they had stealth on a random timer like invisibility worked in EQ; it might last up to 10 minutes, or it might drop after 1 minute. If there was some form of risk attached to it I think it would make things more interesting for everyone while not totally imbalancing things.

    • 99 posts
    April 27, 2018 5:20 AM PDT

    A timer would be interesting, but I still think having some mobs that can detect invis would be cool.  Also, traps and hazards in the world don't care if they can see you or not.  Also, an invis detection system could allow iteslef to be used by certain PC classes, even for a limited use?

    • 100 posts
    May 2, 2018 8:40 PM PDT

    StromVillain said:

    I don't think a lack of perma-stealth is necessarily a bad thing, in fact I find to be the opposite. Perma-stealth is kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card in many instances, and it's also been used extensively for griefing in many other games.

     

    Agreed.  Perm stealth is way too powerful, not to mention the lack of immersion when your rogue can sneak across a brightly lit meadow.

    • 29 posts
    May 4, 2018 11:28 AM PDT

    I've heard the argument regarding rogues only having hide sneak where there are shadows around and I understand the point.  Rogues are supposed to be the masters of disguise and trickery however, so why does it always have to be shadows they take advantage of?

    It should be possible for rogues to exploit other trickery in more lit areas.  Using a mirror to deflect light into a person's eyes, throwing a rock behind a mob, setting up a trap that distracts a group of people.  Now I'm not saying that rogues should have to use mirrors, rocks or traps to sneak across a brightly lit meadow....the only point I'm making is that shadows don't have to be the only method for remaining undetected. And of course the lack of sound we make does most of the work anyway.

    I disagree that perma stealth is always OP.  In EQ we had perma stealth, but besides scouting and corpse CR what did it get us? I couldn't sneak past a bunch of mobs and snipe a named (can't tank, no heals).  Now a monk could FD flop in the same situation and possibly snipe a named like that.  I have used hide/sneak on p99 to get up to the Triplets room in NTOV to set up CoH for access to PoM, but I still had to dodge Flurry drakes (died lots of times trying) and I still needed a Rez stick to rez a CoHer (which is arguably the exploit, not the rogue hide/sneak).  Even the scouting aspect is not hugely OP, as other classes get track.

    I dunno maybe I'm not seeing all the angles but I don't think it is super OP if that is all we have.  On Pantheon we seem to have more utility (see Smoke and Mirrors), so an argument can be made that we don't deserve a powerful (but not OP) ability like perma stealth.

    • 33 posts
    May 5, 2018 11:00 AM PDT

    I wonder how effective the skills of Hide and Sneak are in comparison to Shadow Walk? I've seen the skills in passing as they hover over the hot buttons, but I've only seen SW in action.

    • 29 posts
    May 10, 2018 8:58 AM PDT

    Personally I strongly prefer stealth as an always usable, always available ability (not tied to an arbitrary resource).  

    I don’t think this is Nostalgia hunting… most games use this (including most classic table top games). It is the norm for the rogue class in the fantasy genre of gaming. The only reason people compare things to EQ at all, is because EQ (the great game that it is) based its core gaming principals on 30 years of table top gaming, which in turn, is based loosely on hundreds of years of fiction writting and folklore; so yeah, the very legacy of modern gaming. Something I DO use as a bench mark. 

    All that said; the very best thing about playing a rogue is the ability to sneak into (almost) anywhere, whenever you want. You can go places few others can get (without a lot more difficulty). The tension that is built while sneaking into hostile high-level areas is amazing fun! This ability to hide and feel safe in the face of danger, is the class differentiator for me (not DPS).

    Now, I am of the opinion that it should not be a win all either. It should be a contested roll, the NPC’s ability to notice shealthed characters VS the player characters ability to remain hidden. This is the best limiting factor, not stamina or some other game-mechanic driven principal. A tested mechanic allows for that build up of tension, for that emotional connection to the situation.

    I hope we learn more concrete information about this soon!


    This post was edited by Finbar at May 10, 2018 9:00 AM PDT
    • 29 posts
    May 10, 2018 9:21 AM PDT

    As for is it "OP"?

    Well I hope it is! I hope every class is "OP" in some way or another. I hope they strive for no class balance what-so-ever. Player character classes need only be balanced for the singular purpose of PvP, there should be no concern put towards balancing classes in ability and powers within a PvE play environment. Naturally, because it is not competitive. 

    If any balance is to be considered at all, it should only be on the levels of (for example):

    1) how useful does the player feel to other players

    2) what abilities do they have that make them emotionally connect with the world

    But this is kind of a different topic, so I will digress on it here and let us return to the matter of stealth. 


    This post was edited by Finbar at May 10, 2018 9:27 AM PDT