Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Buff scaling on level

    • 159 posts
    April 29, 2017 2:22 PM PDT

    Like they keep saying, it's being built to their vision.  Not yours, not his, not hers, not mine, theirs. It's been stated adnauseum that it won't be the game for everyone.   And for comments about them removing the old school feel, rose colored glasses only go so far; if enough ppl to support this long term were willing to go thru all the old time sinks, p99 would be even more populated at all hours and there'd be need for or support for Pantheon at all.  

    Oldschool feel without the "I don't have time for ALL this time sink again" makes perfect sense.

    Old school feel doesn't mean pick your personal favorite parts if UO, EQ, EQ2 and VGand blend them into your personal ideal game.  They are making the game they feel is right for their product, play it or not. We backed the New game with an Old Soul, we have each not gained backing and development teams to build our individual dream games.  If I had my way Paladin would have stayed named Crusader and been a melee damage dealing healer (melee bloodmage or like VG disciple) and druid would be a cc/DPS class ...but I acknowledge I'm NOT A DEV despite being a BACKER..they aren't the same thing.

    Running around like Chicken Little, screaming the sky is falling and the dream is dead, won't accomplish anything worthwhile.  

    This game is crowd funded, not crowd dev'd and to be honest we are spoiled with the glimpse we have behind the scenes here and it's made the community here fractured, jaded and acting like entitled brats threatening to take their Tonka trucks and go home.


    This post was edited by Xilshale at April 29, 2017 2:32 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:07 PM PDT

    Amris said:

    I'm personally done with Pantheon due to this. Even when I was younger, one of the most powerful motivators for me to level up specific classes was because of the joy I could bring to other people by buffing them with it. I used to collect 'goodies' to give out to newbies.

    You still can...they just won't break the early levels and let them get by for a long time without having to group. Still more powerful than anything they will get up until the items level.

    Don't worry, I get it. I'm one person and they don't care that I'm walking away. My disappointment and discouragement has been increasing the more I watch the streams. Every character melees. Buffs will scale. Items will scale.  Corpse runs will be trivialized by ending up in the same zone, not at a bind point...

    Most of my entire gaming experience has all been focused on being able to better myself to help others. I'm an inborn healer, but the non-healers who all play healers because "we need more clerics/ priests/ etc." destroy natural healers... because they want healers to be less healer and more "fun". Their idea of 'fun' being it not necessary to actually heal, but rather melee.

    Did we watch the same stream? Anyone? Joppa was the healer and he was in the back healing the whole time, I don't remember him going melee at any point. Neither did Zynx the wizard. Buffs will scale but will still me notably better than anything a lowbie would get at their level. And I must have missed where they said you spawn in the zone for corpse runs, but it looked to me more like something they haven't fully fleshed out and/or are using same zone corpse runs for testing purposes. 

     

    In short, everything I see in Pantheon right now is exactly what I did NOT love about subsequent games, and almost nothing that I DID love about EQ. I played EQ for years, and have played P99 for years again. Despite all these oh-so-terrifying monstrous game-killers like power leveling and twinking and mudflation... people are STILL addicted to THAT game over all others. 

    Yes but almost everyone on P1999 are old EQ junkies who did and/or do play other MMOs. In my time on P1999 I would say maybe 1 in 20 players was NEW to EQ. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but ultimately I couldn't keep playing because A) I don't have the kind of time that game requires anymore as I am no longer 13. B) The high end game is a joke, all the good stuff is perma camped by the main guilds 24/7 (something sharding might help with, the over competition is a very rose colored goggles situation) and C) Leveling sucks because there are so many twinks/powerlevelers taking players out of the grouping pool.  

     

    Early in WoW, I had the urge to buff newbies and give out stuff. It was literally like a punch to the gut to realize that the buffs and items scaled... it was actually are MORE worthwhile for that noob to sell the item to someone for whom it was actually useful than to keep the present for themselves. Buffing was, in the words of the stream, "Nice, BUT..." not memorable, not wonderful, not a day-making magical experience (pun intended). But don't get me wrong, "nice". A waste of mana, but "nice". Zero motivating factor there.

    I can't speak of how it is now, but items never scaled in early WoW. They all had hard level requirements. It's also a little knee jerk to think Pantheon will scale higher level buffs as harshly as WoW did. So your list looks more like this:

     

    Everything I want in a game has a 'bad apple ruined the barrel, so screw you' factor to it. Pantheon, like all the other games, is focused on prevention.

    "I want to buff newbies!" Sorry, powerleveling. [Iksar: this can stay since buffs will be notably less memorable than EQ)

    "I want to give newbies cool extra gear I won't use!" Sorry, twinking.

    "I want to have difficult CRs and need people's help." Sorry, takes too much time.

    "So... what did you leave that I'll really ENJOY?!" Oh, we got this, EVERYBODY melees!! "... I hate to melee..." Oh, you'll do it, and you'll LIKE IT. We swear!

     

     

     

    I get it. The problem isn't VR, it's exploiters who PL or twink or whatever. But the focus here is in the wrong direction in my personal opinion... prevening these 'exploiters' alienates the people who bring the warmth, the inclusiveness, the aspects of welcome and compassion and friendliness. By making everyone melee, they isolate those of us who prefer to watch what's going on and react instead of having a mob's arse in our face watching our DPS. Nothing wrong with people liking that, but I'd like there to be nothing wrong with the way that I like to play, too... and most people who see themselves as 'natural healers' prefer not to melee and to need to pay attention to the environment.

     

    If you think I won't remember the healer who stumbled past and saved my group and gave us buffs even maybe 5 levels higher then you are mistaken. If you think getting some awesome weapons/armor passed down by some random person won't rock my world, you are mistaken. And again, can someone find me where they said everyone has to melee? Healers and casters in particular? If they honestly said that and I missed it then I take it back and I am right there with you, I hate that crap. I strongly dislike being expected to DPS as a healer like I was in FFXIV. 

     

     

    • 3237 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:13 PM PDT

    Xilshale said:

    Like they keep saying, it's being built to their vision.  Not yours, not his, not hers, not mine, theirs. It's been stated adnauseum that it won't be the game for everyone.   And for comments about them removing the old school feel, rose colored glasses only go so far; if enough ppl to support this long term were willing to go thru all the old time sinks, p99 would be even more populated at all hours and there'd be need for or support for Pantheon at all.  

    Oldschool feel without the "I don't have time for ALL this time sink again" makes perfect sense.

    Old school feel doesn't mean pick your personal favorite parts if UO, EQ, EQ2 and VGand blend them into your personal ideal game.  They are making the game they feel is right for their product, play it or not. We backed the New game with an Old Soul, we have each not gained backing and development teams to build our individual dream games.  If I had my way Paladin would have stayed named Crusader and been a melee damage dealing healer (melee bloodmage or like VG disciple) and druid would be a cc/DPS class ...but I acknowledge I'm NOT A DEV despite being a BACKER..they aren't the same thing.

    Running around like Chicken Little, screaming the sky is falling and the dream is dead, won't accomplish anything worthwhile.  

    This game is crowd funded, not crowd dev'd and to be honest we are spoiled with the glimpse we have behind the scenes here and it's made the community here fractured, jaded and acting like entitled brats threatening to take their Tonka trucks and go home.

    I think it's closer to an adult speaking up on something that is important to them.  We aren't dealing with tonka trucks here, we're dealing with high value pledges and anybody who has invested into this game has a right to make a post on this forum, especially if they took the time and effort to voice their concern calmly and clearly, contradictive to what you are implying.  I'm not saying that it will or will not make a difference in the grand scheme of things but to say that people are "acting like entitled brats" and playing with Tonka trucks seems a bit adolescent to me.  All feedback is worthwhile.  If a group of players praise a decision, does that mean they are acting like excited children kicking up sand in the sandbox?  You don't get to pick and choose what feedback is or is not appropriate.

    I agree that someone considering to quit the game at this point is a bit premature but nobody has a right to downplay their thoughts/feelings by calling them Chicken Little or acting like they are a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.  You have no clue whatsoever whether or not someone making a post like that might have an impact down the road.  I don't see how you can acknowledge that you aren't a game dev but then in the very next sentence tell someone that voicing their concerns won't accomplish something worthwhile.  I'm pretty sure gathering feedback on this forum and making decisions on what is or is not worthwhile is a part of a "DEV" responsibility so let's leave them to it and cut back on the playground antics of calling people names and judging them.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 29, 2017 3:32 PM PDT
    • 159 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:19 PM PDT

    Sorry onead, as the biggest, most vocal adgenda pusher here your defense of this means absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned.  Beneath notice really, but since the ignore user feature doesn't work I'll acknowledge it here once to tell you to save your typing breath.

     

    /Cheers mate.


    This post was edited by Xilshale at April 29, 2017 3:22 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:29 PM PDT

    Xilshale said:

    Sorry onead, as the biggest, most vocal adgenda pusher here your defense of this means absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned.  Beneath notice really, but since the ignore user feature doesn't work I'll acknowledge it here once to tell you to save your typing breath.

     

    /Cheers mate.

    Sounds good!

    • 1778 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:37 PM PDT

    Lets play nice guys. Or pretend to I guess?

    • 16 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:45 PM PDT

    I just wanted to share my thoughts on this real quick.

     

    I love powerful buffs and I love handing powerful gear down to my friends. That being said, I want a challenging group-focused game. I still want scaled down gear and buffs to be helpful, just not to the extent than they were in EQ when they were not scaled down at all. Personally I believe that high level buffs and high level gear that do not scale down for low level players trivilizes content and encourages players to solo. I do not believe it is logically consistent in a challenging group-focused game design.

    • 1714 posts
    April 29, 2017 4:39 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Xilshale said:

    Like they keep saying, it's being built to their vision.  Not yours, not his, not hers, not mine, theirs. It's been stated adnauseum that it won't be the game for everyone.   And for comments about them removing the old school feel, rose colored glasses only go so far; if enough ppl to support this long term were willing to go thru all the old time sinks, p99 would be even more populated at all hours and there'd be need for or support for Pantheon at all.  

    Oldschool feel without the "I don't have time for ALL this time sink again" makes perfect sense.

    Old school feel doesn't mean pick your personal favorite parts if UO, EQ, EQ2 and VGand blend them into your personal ideal game.  They are making the game they feel is right for their product, play it or not. We backed the New game with an Old Soul, we have each not gained backing and development teams to build our individual dream games.  If I had my way Paladin would have stayed named Crusader and been a melee damage dealing healer (melee bloodmage or like VG disciple) and druid would be a cc/DPS class ...but I acknowledge I'm NOT A DEV despite being a BACKER..they aren't the same thing.

    Running around like Chicken Little, screaming the sky is falling and the dream is dead, won't accomplish anything worthwhile.  

    This game is crowd funded, not crowd dev'd and to be honest we are spoiled with the glimpse we have behind the scenes here and it's made the community here fractured, jaded and acting like entitled brats threatening to take their Tonka trucks and go home.

    I think it's closer to an adult speaking up on something that is important to them.  We aren't dealing with tonka trucks here, we're dealing with high value pledges and anybody who has invested into this game has a right to make a post on this forum, especially if they took the time and effort to voice their concern calmly and clearly, contradictive to what you are implying.  I'm not saying that it will or will not make a difference in the grand scheme of things but to say that people are "acting like entitled brats" and playing with Tonka trucks seems a bit adolescent to me.  All feedback is worthwhile.  If a group of players praise a decision, does that mean they are acting like excited children kicking up sand in the sandbox?  You don't get to pick and choose what feedback is or is not appropriate.

    I agree that someone considering to quit the game at this point is a bit premature but nobody has a right to downplay their thoughts/feelings by calling them Chicken Little or acting like they are a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.  You have no clue whatsoever whether or not someone making a post like that might have an impact down the road.  I don't see how you can acknowledge that you aren't a game dev but then in the very next sentence tell someone that voicing their concerns won't accomplish something worthwhile.  I'm pretty sure gathering feedback on this forum and making decisions on what is or is not worthwhile is a part of a "DEV" responsibility so let's leave them to it and cut back on the playground antics of calling people names and judging them.

    Hey look, an intelligent adult post. 

    • 65 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:07 PM PDT

    I don't understand how the game could be challenging if buffs and items did not scale down. I thought challenging gameplay was one of the core principles of the game, I am honestly surprised there are so many people that support this game that want to add features to the game that fly in the face of that vision.

    • 3237 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:18 PM PDT

    At the end of the day, I think there is just some misinterpretation here.  Every now and then something may seem out of whack but we have to keep in mind that we don't get to see the big picture.  I have learned this over time from some of my own posts.  VR are a bunch of gamers themselves and their vision is why we are here.  If at any point you feel that the vision is being strayed from, just remember there is so much more going on behind the scenes that we aren't privy to.  I'm confident that Pantheon will be the best damn game to ever grace the MMO genre and it's the collective responsibility of the community as a whole to reel people in who have lost their way.  Amris, I sincerely hope that you reconsider your thoughts on Pantheon and give VR the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this issue.

    There are so many wonderful features planned for this game to consider ... if one thing doesen't shape up exactly how you remember it in a past MMO, just think about the dozens of new features/concepts that we will see that could be making up for it in other ways.  The progress between the last two streams has been stellar to say the least and we're still talking about a game in pre-pre-alpha that hasn't received any feedback from the players that VR is trying to create a home for.  They have stated many times that they will continue to tweak things over time and them being receptive of small issues like this (They stated it was something that would be difficult to balance which means they can't tip the scale too far toward either side without breaking it) tells me that we should be infused with hope!

    I'm super excited for the new stream and the upcoming round table ... we have made it through the trenches folks ... we have followed the rainbow and are almost to that pot of gold.  We can see the pot in the distance ... let's not judge the pot until we can see the contents inside of it.  I made the mistake of doing that with progeny but have learned that it's truly a large scale system that is still being worked out, and is tied into plenty of other systems.  We need to see how everything comes together before drawing a conclusion about any specific piece/part.  We're really close to sampling the recipe of the master chefs who have been concocting it for several years now.  I for one am ready to ask for second portions and a take home bag ... and don't forget to tip.  =D

    • 9115 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:28 PM PDT

    Let's ease up on the personal attacks and bickering folks, there is no need to turn on each other for having an opinion different to your own.

    Please remember with our streams, we try to give as much information possible without a lot of the systems, mechanics and features being finished, so take what information you get with a grain of salt, we will be taking all of these things into testing where your feedback - once you get to try it out first hand - will be valuable to us, for now, these forum posts blowing up because we said we will have buff scaling etc. is just silly and wasting everyone's time.

    Please be respectful and constructive (keeping in mind nothing said here will change anything until we get into testing) or the thread will be closed.

    • 65 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:43 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Let's ease up on the personal attacks and bickering folks, there is no need to turn on each other for having an opinion different to your own.

    Please remember with our streams, we try to give as much information possible without a lot of the systems, mechanics and features being finished, so take what information you get with a grain of salt, we will be taking all of these things into testing where your feedback - once you get to try it out first hand - will be valuable to us, for now, these forum posts blowing up because we said we will have buff scaling etc. is just silly and wasting everyone's time.

    Please be respectful and constructive (keeping in mind nothing said here will change anything until we get into testing) or the thread will be closed.

    Not trying to have a go at you mate but I find it kind of sad that everyone's opinion is irrelevant unless we have played the game. Even if this were true, isn't this something you should not state publicly?

  • April 29, 2017 6:28 PM PDT

    torveld said:

    Not trying to have a go at you mate but I find it kind of sad that everyone's opinion is irrelevant unless we have played the game. Even if this were true, isn't this something you should not state publicly?

    I am not trying to speak for Kilsin but it seems there may have been a misunderstanding on what was meant.  We definitely want constructive feedback.  Everyone has a right to their feelings, opinions and most of all - their decision on whether or not to part with their money. It's important to remember that people have strong feelings when their money, support and time is invested and as all of you have invested at least one, if not all three of those things into Pantheon with us, it is expected that sometimes those feelings will be charged and not expressed in the most productive way at times. 

    But that does not mean we should attack or belittle them, either when it occurs.  Disagreeing in debates or discussions is one thing, getting personal or petty isn't.  This level of intensity is expected to some degree, but extra threads and the response is at times, more extreme than is necessary.  Especially with the limited information given. It makes it hard for us to see the constructive, useful feedback.  This is a wonderful community and you all do a wonderful job most of the time of debating things without taking it too far. 

     We are making this game WITH YOU. That means we listen and while we have to weigh all the pros and cons of the arguements made, we are listening.   As we are not yet to pre-alpha, things are going to be constantly changing. That's a fact with any game in testing, but most definitely where we are now.   We would hope that everyone would recognize that when we say something isn't final, it isn't, and we would also hope that folks on the fence give it a shot before dismissing what we've created.  This stage of development though, it's not about simply resubbing if you change your mind, it's about supporting the development financially.   It is entirely OK for someone to decide they don't want to invest and to decide to stop their subscription based on something they're not fond of. 

    We hope the vast majority who may be unsure of a feature or decision is made will express their feelings constructively, as well as try it out when possible before dismissing it entirely and saying it's not for them.  That said, we respect the decisions of those who do not. 

    • 9115 posts
    April 29, 2017 7:17 PM PDT

    torveld said:

    Kilsin said:

    Let's ease up on the personal attacks and bickering folks, there is no need to turn on each other for having an opinion different to your own.

    Please remember with our streams, we try to give as much information possible without a lot of the systems, mechanics and features being finished, so take what information you get with a grain of salt, we will be taking all of these things into testing where your feedback - once you get to try it out first hand - will be valuable to us, for now, these forum posts blowing up because we said we will have buff scaling etc. is just silly and wasting everyone's time.

    Please be respectful and constructive (keeping in mind nothing said here will change anything until we get into testing) or the thread will be closed.

    Not trying to have a go at you mate but I find it kind of sad that everyone's opinion is irrelevant unless we have played the game. Even if this were true, isn't this something you should not state publicly?

    Thank you to Zynx for helping to clarify :)

    I certainly didn't mean your opinions are worthless or irrelevant mate, just that big systems like this are already implemented and cannot be altered or tweaked without first-hand experience in-game when you guys can actually test it out along with everything else that ties into this system (and others).

    The communities feedback, suggestions and discussions over the last few years have got us to where we are today, I can't even count how many threads, posts and idea's I have passed onto the devs team, I could probably retire if I charged $1 for each one! :D

    But arguing, basing opinions on assumption and writing systems, mechanics and feature off before ever laying a finger on them is harmful to not only the community but the game overall, it generates a big negative bubble around these systems, mechanics and features that new players and media pick up on, creating a bad taste in people's mouths and that is without anyone seeing a finished system implemented and tested, it doesn't help anyone man and needs to stop.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at April 29, 2017 7:18 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    April 29, 2017 11:16 PM PDT

    Like looking at a piece of raw chicken and deciding it's gross and you don't like chicken. Let them finish cooking the meal before casting judgement. In that sense, all of our opinions on what we have seen is very premature as most we have seen is still an early iteration or just the founding blocks of larger systems/ideas.

     

    We are looking at raw meat right now, let's let the chef's do the cooking first.

    • 65 posts
    April 30, 2017 3:57 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    torveld said:

    Kilsin said:

    Let's ease up on the personal attacks and bickering folks, there is no need to turn on each other for having an opinion different to your own.

    Please remember with our streams, we try to give as much information possible without a lot of the systems, mechanics and features being finished, so take what information you get with a grain of salt, we will be taking all of these things into testing where your feedback - once you get to try it out first hand - will be valuable to us, for now, these forum posts blowing up because we said we will have buff scaling etc. is just silly and wasting everyone's time.

    Please be respectful and constructive (keeping in mind nothing said here will change anything until we get into testing) or the thread will be closed.

    Not trying to have a go at you mate but I find it kind of sad that everyone's opinion is irrelevant unless we have played the game. Even if this were true, isn't this something you should not state publicly?

    Thank you to Zynx for helping to clarify :)

    I certainly didn't mean your opinions are worthless or irrelevant mate, just that big systems like this are already implemented and cannot be altered or tweaked without first-hand experience in-game when you guys can actually test it out along with everything else that ties into this system (and others).

    The communities feedback, suggestions and discussions over the last few years have got us to where we are today, I can't even count how many threads, posts and idea's I have passed onto the devs team, I could probably retire if I charged $1 for each one! :D

    But arguing, basing opinions on assumption and writing systems, mechanics and feature off before ever laying a finger on them is harmful to not only the community but the game overall, it generates a big negative bubble around these systems, mechanics and features that new players and media pick up on, creating a bad taste in people's mouths and that is without anyone seeing a finished system implemented and tested, it doesn't help anyone man and needs to stop.

    Yeah I agree there is quite a bit of negativity surrounding a lot of the discussion of some systems. That said though I think people can still share their opinion in a constructive manner about some certain things without having to play the game. Like to share your thoughts about the latest stream and thoughts on what you liked and didn't like as much about it. Not expecting sweeping changes based on the opinions on the forums but glad to know that the devs are at least reading a few of peoples thoughts about different topics around the forums.

    I feel like buff scaling is one of those things that most people have experience with and can be discussed without seeing it in game.


    This post was edited by torveld at April 30, 2017 3:58 AM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    April 30, 2017 4:15 AM PDT

    torveld said:

    Kilsin said:

    torveld said:

    Kilsin said:

    Let's ease up on the personal attacks and bickering folks, there is no need to turn on each other for having an opinion different to your own.

    Please remember with our streams, we try to give as much information possible without a lot of the systems, mechanics and features being finished, so take what information you get with a grain of salt, we will be taking all of these things into testing where your feedback - once you get to try it out first hand - will be valuable to us, for now, these forum posts blowing up because we said we will have buff scaling etc. is just silly and wasting everyone's time.

    Please be respectful and constructive (keeping in mind nothing said here will change anything until we get into testing) or the thread will be closed.

    Not trying to have a go at you mate but I find it kind of sad that everyone's opinion is irrelevant unless we have played the game. Even if this were true, isn't this something you should not state publicly?

    Thank you to Zynx for helping to clarify :)

    I certainly didn't mean your opinions are worthless or irrelevant mate, just that big systems like this are already implemented and cannot be altered or tweaked without first-hand experience in-game when you guys can actually test it out along with everything else that ties into this system (and others).

    The communities feedback, suggestions and discussions over the last few years have got us to where we are today, I can't even count how many threads, posts and idea's I have passed onto the devs team, I could probably retire if I charged $1 for each one! :D

    But arguing, basing opinions on assumption and writing systems, mechanics and feature off before ever laying a finger on them is harmful to not only the community but the game overall, it generates a big negative bubble around these systems, mechanics and features that new players and media pick up on, creating a bad taste in people's mouths and that is without anyone seeing a finished system implemented and tested, it doesn't help anyone man and needs to stop.

    Yeah I agree there is quite a bit of negativity surrounding a lot of the discussion of some systems. That said though I think people can still share their opinion in a constructive manner about some certain things without having to play the game. Like to share your thoughts about the latest stream and thoughts on what you liked and didn't like as much about it. Not expecting sweeping changes based on the opinions on the forums but glad to know that the devs are at least reading a few of peoples thoughts about different topics around the forums.

    I feel like buff scaling is one of those things that most people have experience with and can be discussed without seeing it in game.

    Absolutely, I not only agree the whole team encourages it, I am just referring to the posts who say an entire system is bad, will wreck the game, forcing them to use it etc. when they have no actual knowledge of the entire system, what is does, how it works what it is connected to and how the experience feels in-game overall yet still write it off, that needs to stop, all the other feedback and constructive criticism is welcomed with open arms! :)

    • 902 posts
    April 30, 2017 4:24 AM PDT

    Riahuf22: And selling a 35 sword doesn't lose value to a lvl 25 character becuase in fact they know for 10 levels it will hit harder and give more stats for those level til they hit 35 so if i was the 25 character i would by it based off just this

    I agree. A scaled buff or item does not become worthless. It becomes appropriate to the level of the wielder. If its a good buff or item at 35, it will still be good at 25 with a percentage scale down. Scaling is a must or vast portions of the game become meaningless for those with rich or powerful friends. Yes make it worth having but not to the extent that you can solo elite mobs.


    This post was edited by chenzeme at April 30, 2017 4:24 AM PDT
    • 84 posts
    May 4, 2017 4:08 PM PDT

    I'm not a fan of scaling as it seems very generic and artificial.  I think EQ1 did a pretty good job by setting a level range for buffs.  That being said, if they are planning to scale buffs and items in such a way where they still provide more benefit than a character's current level spells or items, then it is probably similar enough to EQ1 that it will still be fine.  I think a lot of players enjoy buffing other players and I think it is healthy for the in-game economy to have players looking to purchase buffs and to have those buffs be valuable enough to them that they actually take the time to find someone to provide them.

    Hopefully buff timers are not too long.  Needing to rebuff is an important mechanic.  It also is another reason to play smart and not die (as I am guessing you will lose your buffs).

    • 119 posts
    May 4, 2017 4:26 PM PDT

    Trustar said:I think EQ1 did a pretty good job by setting a level range for buffs.
    that was a solution, but it was... cumbersome. when you wanted to buff a lower lvl, you first had to ask him his level and then find and memorize the correct buff for that level. in the end, the effect would be the same, but usually you'd just not do it. i can't imagine anyone prefers that to buff scaling. but then i see nothing wrong with buff scaling anyways.

    concerning the issue of having to test systems before we can judge them: the problem is, then it will likely be too late for fundamental changes. if someone suspects now that he will strongly (dis)like a system, the time for action (and therefore voicing his oppinion) would be as soon as possible. in beta there will be tweaks, but it's unlikely that such basic design decisions will be changed after putting so much effort into them.

    • 1714 posts
    May 4, 2017 5:58 PM PDT

    chenzeme said:

    Riahuf22: And selling a 35 sword doesn't lose value to a lvl 25 character becuase in fact they know for 10 levels it will hit harder and give more stats for those level til they hit 35 so if i was the 25 character i would by it based off just this

    I agree. A scaled buff or item does not become worthless. It becomes appropriate to the level of the wielder. If its a good buff or item at 35, it will still be good at 25 with a percentage scale down. Scaling is a must or vast portions of the game become meaningless for those with rich or powerful friends. Yes make it worth having but not to the extent that you can solo elite mobs.

     

    How is this not a loss of value? That is the definition of a loss of value. You have to wait 10 levels before it will be the same weapon as it would have been? You can disagree that it will have an impact, but come on, it is straight up lesser. You can argue that it would IMPROVE the low-mid level sales economy, even if, by my argument, it would hurt the higher level player sales economy. That's a reasonable argument, one that I cannot possible have a definitive answer to because the game doesn't exist. But to argue that a 10/40 isn't a lesser value than a 10/30? 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at May 5, 2017 7:02 AM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    May 4, 2017 6:31 PM PDT

    I dont know how it will be implimented, but my understanding of it is this:

    Weapons: will scale down to level of user- but it will still be a nice weapon for that level and may be better than most weapons itemized for that level. For instance a  sword with 10Str at level 20, might scale down to 2str to a level 5- but that 2str on a sword at level 5 would be slightly better than what is out there to a level 5. The nice thing is if the player keeps it to level 20- its still the upper end of swords at level 20 and keeps its value.

    Now, it the level 20 sword *ahem* sells to a merchant for 20p then you could sell it to a level 20 player for 25p and it would be good. if that sword is given to a level 2, you could still charge them 25p or they could use it ang get a boost untill level 20 and maybe sell it for 25p or if they need bank space to sell it to the merchant for 20p.

    Gear: likewise with gear. the 35level belt with 35% haste, will scale down to a 6% haste to a level 5- and that extra haste at level 5 will still be - you can still feel it and it is good.

    Buffs: a 50AC buff at level 45, may scale down to a 5ac buff at level 5- but that 5ac will keep you up longer against the boss in the closest dungeon to your home town.

    Not sure about things like lev- maybe they would be time dependent- but it also fits with a mentoring concept as I see it. Highly skilled (high level?) Human wizard can mentor down to a lower skilled wizard- with all their gear scaled down- but still be slightly better than that level gear-  and then group with their Ogre friends who just joined the game. The human can then see the Ogre areas and experience them as if new, new dungeons new quests new factions.  The world is going to be huge. Likewise the ogres can experience the Human area when they get older as well.

     

     I would get asked for mage DS all the time, and - heh- I actually had my spell book organized so I could quickly flip to the page and start at 10 levels higher and go down untill the highest one down, stuck. Never got complaints-always got repeat requests. One time I did a drive by and was refused (thanks but no thanks, I am trying to skill up 2hb) was the tell.  

    • 2752 posts
    May 4, 2017 6:43 PM PDT

    Manouk said:

    I dont know how it will be implimented, but my understanding of it is this:

    That's actually not how they will be doing it according to the latest stream. Here is copied from Bazgrim's topic:

     

    Bazgrim said:

    1. Buff/Item Scaling:

    - Stats on items and effects of buffs will not automatically/artificially be decreased to a set amount that suits the receiver's level.

    - A character's weapon skill will govern how effective that character is with a weapon. (Ex.: if a lvl 1 equips a lvl 40 sword, that players 1H Slashing skill is going to limit how much damage he/she can do with that weapon.)

    - Furthermore, for example, if a level 40 Shaman casts a Strength buff on that same character, the lvl 1 may be able to take advantage of the full damage range of the weapon. However, that character will still be not be doing much damage overall compared to if that sword was being wielded by a lvl 40 character, due to the difference in 1H Slashing skill.

    - There may be required levels on items that have procs or clickies. (Note: you will still be able to equip the item itself and benefit from the rest of the stats, but the proc or clicky will not trigger until a particular level)

    - Worn effects on items (Ex.: passive haste boost) will probably not be restricted by level.

    • 2138 posts
    May 4, 2017 6:53 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Manouk said:

    I dont know how it will be implimented, but my understanding of it is this:

    That's actually not how they will be doing it according to the latest stream. Here is copied from Bazgrim's topic:

     

    Bazgrim said:

    1. Buff/Item Scaling:

    - Stats on items and effects of buffs will not automatically/artificially be decreased to a set amount that suits the receiver's level.

    - A character's weapon skill will govern how effective that character is with a weapon. (Ex.: if a lvl 1 equips a lvl 40 sword, that players 1H Slashing skill is going to limit how much damage he/she can do with that weapon.)

    - Furthermore, for example, if a level 40 Shaman casts a Strength buff on that same character, the lvl 1 may be able to take advantage of the full damage range of the weapon. However, that character will still be not be doing much damage overall compared to if that sword was being wielded by a lvl 40 character, due to the difference in 1H Slashing skill.

    - There may be required levels on items that have procs or clickies. (Note: you will still be able to equip the item itself and benefit from the rest of the stats, but the proc or clicky will not trigger until a particular level)

    - Worn effects on items (Ex.: passive haste boost) will probably not be restricted by level.

    Thanks Iksar! I thought I caught up with all the comments and started at the recent.

    • 6 posts
    May 4, 2017 7:00 PM PDT

    I'm pretty stoked about buff's not scaling and their discription of item scaling seems like it's a good system.

    Some of my fondest memories of playing EQ1 was looking for and recieving powerfull buffs from higher level players.  The buffing aspect of EQ1 brought the community together and once I to became a high level player, I too offered my buffs to lower level players.  Buffing made EQ1 stand out from any other MMO available today, no other MMO has came even close due to thier scaling mechanics, buffs felt okay but not great and were also such short durations that actively looking for buffs was a waste of time.  

    With that comes Buff duration.  If buff's don't scale and will make a lower level player feel like a more powerful self, but only last a limited time then the benefit of looking for those buffs become diminished.  I would like the continuation of these buffs to last a decent amount of time,like, EQ1.