I watched the live stream while I was working on a report at work. It was awesome!
But one thing got brought up that I was curious about...Buff scaling.
I looked through past tickets and didn't see any about this particular subject if there is one out there let me know if I missed it.
So, in the stream from what I understood if a higher level player cast a buff on a lower level player that buff will get scaled down by a lot.
In theory, I totally understand where this comes from. It prevents abuse of having a friend sit there with your party and heal you through encounters and buff you so you can defeat high-level monsters and get high rewards for doing less work. AKA Powerleveling (Or a high-level tank pulling a ton of mobs and letting you kill them).
But on the flip-side of that coin, I will miss the feeling I got when a high-level cleric casted a huge AC buff on me as a warrior. I would get all excited, we had been camping for 2 hours and I am level 25. A level 50 cleric runs by and tosses an AC buff on me on his way through. For the next 45 minutes, I felt like I could destroy the world. In reality, it wasn't a significantly enough buff to let me go totally crazy but I took noticeably less damage. It gave me this sense of urgency, I have to spend the next 45 minutes to the maximum efficiency before this buff wears off and I lose my advantage.
I see that the feeling I got may not be as big of a draw as avoiding people PLing their characters and getting an advantage on others...Just wanted to express my thoughts, I hope that VR will at least...Modify the scaling so that if a higher level player cast a higher level buff on you as a lower level then it does scale down but is still maybe 1.5x more powerful than if someone of the same level as you are casted it on you, so you get a noticeable difference but it doesn't make you unstoppable.
Burnsmh said:I watched the live stream while I was working on a report at work. It was awesome!
But one thing got brought up that I was curious about...Buff scaling.
I looked through past tickets and didn't see any about this particular subject if there is one out there let me know if I missed it.
So, in the stream from what I understood if a higher level player cast a buff on a lower level player that buff will get scaled down by a lot.
In theory, I totally understand where this comes from. It prevents abuse of having a friend sit there with your party and heal you through encounters and buff you so you can defeat high-level monsters and get high rewards for doing less work. AKA Powerleveling (Or a high-level tank pulling a ton of mobs and letting you kill them).
But on the flip-side of that coin, I will miss the feeling I got when a high-level cleric casted a huge AC buff on me as a warrior. I would get all excited, we had been camping for 2 hours and I am level 25. A level 50 cleric runs by and tosses an AC buff on me on his way through. For the next 45 minutes, I felt like I could destroy the world. In reality, it wasn't a significantly enough buff to let me go totally crazy but I took noticeably less damage. It gave me this sense of urgency, I have to spend the next 45 minutes to the maximum efficiency before this buff wears off and I lose my advantage.
I see that the feeling I got may not be as big of a draw as avoiding people PLing their characters and getting an advantage on others...Just wanted to express my thoughts, I hope that VR will at least...Modify the scaling so that if a higher level player cast a higher level buff on you as a lower level then it does scale down but is still maybe 1.5x more powerful than if someone of the same level as you are casted it on you, so you get a noticeable difference but it doesn't make you unstoppable.
I think it stinks, but I'm not going to make a stink, for once. Twinking was a hell of a lot of fun. Getting KEI at low level was game breaking. They're being forward thinking.
Yeah, I can see it from that perspective, too. They are eliminating something that obviously allows players to bypass content (or makes it trivial, at least). I'm hoping for a more challenging game (as I think most people here are), so why would I want things in the game that are going to make it easy to level for new players. I guess whatever they come up with for Progeny will make it less tedious for experienced players. I dunno. I think I'd still prefer to leave it alone and not have things scale, but I can see the merits of the other side now also, so I'm fine with it either way.
This has been discussed and theorycrafted in the past, but of course VR's stance on it had not been confirmed until today.
I still say we have to wait and see exactly to what degree buffs scale. Ideally, they can find a middle ground where being buffed by a higher level is still really helpful and special, but not game-breaking. Granted, that's probably a pretty fine line. But I think it's possible. We don't know any real numbers yet.
I agree with OP here. One of my fondest memories from my MMO experience is receiving and handing out buffs to or from other players. Buff scaling has the potential to negate this feeling, depending how it is implemented. Only one game has really captured this and that game is EQ.
% based buffs may be an option. Lets say the first rank of a Aegolism type buff is something like 10% increase to AC and 10% increase to Health, however, the max rank would give 25% AC and 25% Health. A low level would benefit greatly by finding a high level buff but the buff wouldn't make them a GOD for 2 hours because it is % based, unlike flat bonuses to AC and Health could get out of hand on a low player... which is fun I must admit.
There have been debates over this - they got heated at times.
I think it is more a matter of ...well let's call it enthusiasm .... than major disagreement.
My guess is high level buffs will make things a lot easier and be VERY welcome to get, and isn't that the whole point? If a buff does 1/10 the benefit for me that it would have done for the person casting it, but 10 times what my own puny bufflet would have done, let's focus on the 10 times not the 1/10 and be happy.
Scaling things down can be done in such a way as to leave them under, equal or over powered.
With my 'Innovation' hat on ....
... can I suggest: (numbers for example purposes only)
1. Start with them scaled to approx the buff that the character level normally would give.
2. Allow (later - post launch perhaps) some AA skills that allow 'better buffing'
a) AA that gives bonus to character level for purposes of buff effects
Eg Rank 1/2/3/4 give +20%/+30%/+40%/+70% 'effective level'
So a Lev50 with Rank 3 AA buffing a Lev15 gives buff to him as if he were Lev21,
but a Lev8 only gets a buff as if he were Lev11.
b) AA that gives bonus to buff duration, proportional to difference in level.
Eg Ranks 1/2/3 Give +1%/+2%/+3% per level difference to duration.
So a Lev25 with Rank 2 AA buffing a Lev5 gives buff lasting 40% longer
I see 'scaling buffs' as an opportunity to add layers later, rather than a negative.
Evoras, likes chanter crack ..... me wants .... more
novellerfane said:I agree with OP here. One of my fondest memories from my MMO experience is receiving and handing out buffs to or from other players. Buff scaling has the potential to negate this feeling, depending how it is implemented. Only one game has really captured this and that game is EQ.
% based buffs may be an option. Lets say the first rank of a Aegolism type buff is something like 10% increase to AC and 10% increase to Health, however, the max rank would give 25% AC and 25% Health. A low level would benefit greatly by finding a high level buff but the buff wouldn't make them a GOD for 2 hours because it is % based, unlike flat bonuses to AC and Health could get out of hand on a low player... which is fun I must admit.
Honestly im fine with the scaling, for one it makes it to where you cant be like lvl 1 than than be lvl 10 in an hour and still progressing at an extremely fast rate to due having buffs that push you past your actually potential, and than when they finally wear off you actually have to play your class correctly instead of the buffs carrying you through, in my eyes it doesnt "cripple" you in how to play your class, granted many players could simply learn there class at the same time, many people can look at abilities and see what it does and play their character correctly, but for the ones that don't do this well need to exactly play through the grind and through trial and error to play their class right.
How aboout questing or completing some time sensitive requirement to earn a strong buff. EQ2 tried to do this. Not very well, but if you cleared an area of mobs surrounding an NPC that NPC would give you a buff. In EQ2 the buff was too weak, and the duration way way too short, but the theory was good.
I did enjoy getting power leveled in EQ. It didn't happen often but when a Druid or a Mage ran past you and cast a damage shield on you that was a pretty great moment. I can see why they don't want to make leveling too easy after all that is what the community has been asking for since this game was made public.
I can live with buff scaling though. It isn't the end of the world.
Cromulent said:I did enjoy getting power leveled in EQ. It didn't happen often but when a Druid or a Mage ran past you and cast a damage shield on you that was a pretty great moment. I can see why they don't want to make leveling too easy after all that is what the community has been asking for since this game was made public.
I can live with buff scaling though. It isn't the end of the world.
I'd rather see buff scaling than item scaling.
Krixus said:Cromulent said:I did enjoy getting power leveled in EQ. It didn't happen often but when a Druid or a Mage ran past you and cast a damage shield on you that was a pretty great moment. I can see why they don't want to make leveling too easy after all that is what the community has been asking for since this game was made public.
I can live with buff scaling though. It isn't the end of the world.
I'd rather see buff scaling than item scaling.
Agreed. Item scaling is a shame. It would be nice to twink out characters. I mean if you've been playing for 5 years or something one of the rewards for that is being able to afford uber gear for your level 1 characters.
Amsai said: Im glad they are doing both. Its the right way to go.
Spells and items are key to a game like this. It drives what we as players do. What are you crafting? An item. What are questing for? A spell. What are we killing that mob for? Spells and items.
Devaluing spells and items has far reaching consequences. Making someone feel less value about their reward for doing something in the game is not good. It also hampers the economy. Not always, but one of the drivers in trade is selling something to someone who can't get it on their own. Another level 50 is perhaps less likely to buy my level 35 sword, because they can go get it themselves. But a level 25 player cannot. We have just nerfed that item so that it has lost value to the main demographic that would be buying it. Again, far reaching consequences when we start messing with items.
Krixus said:I'd rather see buff scaling than item scaling.
I feel like both are critcally important to the health of the game. I am against things that trivialize the leveling process in a game that is supposed to be more about the journey than the destination.
Without buff scaling, flat amount buffs would be too powerful when cast at a 30 plus level disparity. The stance they have on item scaling being better than current level gear I feel is a big mistake too, I feel like it should be worse than level appropriate gear by at least 10%. If you are fully twinked then there is no incentive to get new items as you level because the gear you have will grow with you the whole time and be better than anything you are wearing currently, outside of situational gear which can obviously be twinked too. Sure this may not present itself as a problem in the first 3-6 months but as the game ages, twinking becomes the standard.
Krixus said:Amsai said: Im glad they are doing both. Its the right way to go.
Spells and items are key to a game like this. It drives what we as players do. What are you crafting? An item. What are questing for? A spell. What are we killing that mob for? Spells and items.
Devaluing spells and items has far reaching consequences. Making someone feel less value about their reward for doing something in the game is not good. It also hampers the economy. Not always, but one of the drivers in trade is selling something to someone who can't get it on their own. Another level 50 is perhaps less likely to buy my level 35 sword, because they can go get it themselves. But a level 25 player cannot. We have just nerfed that item so that it has lost value to the main demographic that would be buying it. Again, far reaching consequences when we start messing with items.
They aren't making the spells less valuable in the game, they are making plvling harder which is a good thing, if a cleric get a spell and it does lets say 25ac and 600 hp and you put that on a lvl char that starts out has someone with 25hp and 15ac you are basically saying he is unkillable making him a 625hp 40 ac bare naked, which trivializes the game completely. Thats the one thing we said we didn't want and now that they are scaling buffs and gear people are complaining about it, that sounds like people are putting a double edge sword and that no one can make you a game you want to play it honestly doesn't make sense to me. We want a hard game, with slow progression, and everything else EQ brought that made it great and they made it to where is basically stays that way by scaling items and buffs and all of a sudden people think they are going to far when it was exactly what we asked for.
And selling a 35 sword doesn't lose value to a lvl 25 character becuase in fact they know for 10 levels it will hit harder and give more stats for those level til they hit 35 so if i was the 25 character i would by it based off just this