I think a good way to do it would be to first make sure that not all quests are keeper related. Have the guard that wants infinite bone chips, and the princeling who wants you to discover his grandfather's crown in the dungeon full of ancient human lore as two separate things. This way you can keep perception quests to a minimum. (how many lore filled quests could you pack into the game before you run out of lore)?
When there's not many perception quests, the trade off is simply whether or not you want content forced on you.
All content in Pantheon will likely not be perfectly balanced. Some areas will have better xp, some places will have better loot, some zones will be more dangerous, etc.
Doing the limited number of perception based quests could force you away from the type of content you prefer to play in.
I, for example, prefer content that is both relatively challenging and rewarding as far as equipment goes (easy farming or experience focused areas just aren't for me unless I am helping a friend). Perception based quests may or may not take me to the sort of content I prefer.
Second, perception could be an actual leveled skill as many people have mentioned.
If you skipped a few perception quests, your perception skill could fall behind. Some of the more rewarding options for your level would no longer be available.
So, even if you used third party websites to learn exactly how to do all of the perception quests most efficiently, your choices would be to keep the skill up as you level or go back later and grind the skill, possibly in content you don't find preferable. IMO, that, vs. the rewards of being a keeper, would definately be a trade off for many players.
Someone asked a version of my original question on the stream that ended a little bit ago. You can see the answer here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/138486792?t=00h53m25s
There was a bit of a long tangent about the inception of the perception system itself, but my takeaway is that being a Keeper is indeed just a value add and that you won't be giving anything up by choosing to participate.
zubi said:It's possible that making a 'yes' / 'no' decision on a perception call have an affect on future perception calls based on faction / race / religion etc [like an invisible decision making tree].
It opens up a lot of opportunities and I am hopeful that the VR team will design a fun and interesting system for us.
If nothing else, it definately provides a Roleplay element to your character - which is always a bonus in my mind!
Which means we'll have to be paying attention to our choices....and thinking a bit ahead. :) I like it. I'll be working on upping my skill as I go, not running back and grinding. Grinding is a choice..there are ways to avoid that. :)
Iksar said:philo said:What does this mean? Shards is just another word for servers. Are you using it to mean something else?
Kilsin cleared it up a bit recently in a now locked thread on enforcing of camps:
Kilsin said:Shards can be Servers or Copies/Mirrors of zones/dungeons etc. for example, many older games referred to their Servers as Shards, some call them Realms. In Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Ancient Port Warehouse (APW) was a huge level 50 raiding dungeon that often got overcrowded so the developers added 6 shards, which were mirror images copying the same dungeon 6 times, they were all un-instanced and open to anyone at any time and were coded to go to "sleep" when not in use for any amount of time.
When we talk about Shards we mean the possibility of copying caves/dungeons to deal with overcrowding and sometimes Brad uses the word Shard to speak about a server because eh is old school and played games with that word used instead of servers lol :P
I hope that clears things up.
Far from cleared up. That's not just the kind of info you drop and then don't clarify. Basically it means nothing. They may or may not implement overflow zones.
Beefcake said:it appears to give you knowledge of encounters, such as detecting dispotions.
To me, this makes it non-optional. I'd like to know how this aspect of it would not be considered an advantage. It seems like this would pressure people into becoming a Keeper when they would otherwise not.
Amsai said:What if it counted as a discipline similar to crafting where you could only choose 1 to persue?
That might even be worse. I'd still feel like it was necessary to go with that one particular aspect of Perception. Being able to know a mob's disposition before engaging it could save a lot of wipes. Btw, I think it's a great idea and it's not really OP. It would still require a lot of strategy in the actual battle. But Idk why anyone would not want to skip the trial-and-error. Maybe you'd only die one time before realizing that a mob is an alarmist. It probably wouldn't be that hard to figure out what's going on. But why not just become a Keeper and level up Insight (assuming that's the appropriate skill) so you can avoid that death in the first place?
Perception is optional. If you put time and effort into it, you get benefits if you don't, the benefits are not gained. Not everyone is just to that. It's ok.
Its no different than crafting. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as making items that give you an advantage over other players.
Its no different than raiding. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as looting items that give you an advantage over other players.
Its no different than Progeny. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as earning abilities that give you an advantage over other players.
Pantheon is about choices and rewards. All these systems are optional and give advantages. You don't think it's worth it, don't do it.
But, don't start this crap saying it's required. The same ole trope gets brought out for every proposed system. Its optional. If you think the benefits outweigh the costs, it may be required for YOU. But, like most here in this forum, you have to remember that there will be more people than you playing this game and they might not agree with you about what is optional or not.
Beefcake said:Perception is optional. If you put time and effort into it, you get benefits if you don't, the benefits are not gained. Not everyone is just to that. It's ok.
Its no different than crafting. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as making items that give you an advantage over other players.
Its no different than raiding. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as looting items that give you an advantage over other players.
Its no different than Progeny. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as earning abilities that give you an advantage over other players.
Pantheon is about choices and rewards. All these systems are optional and give advantages. You don't think it's worth it, don't do it.
But, don't start this crap saying it's required. The same ole trope gets brought out for every proposed system. Its optional. If you think the benefits outweigh the costs, it may be required for YOU. But, like most here in this forum, you have to remember that there will be more people than you playing this game and they might not agree with you about what is optional or not.
The abstract core game cycle of an MMO is about exploring an area and killing monsters (probably with a group in Pantheon) to increase your power so you can explore the next area and do the same. Pantheon is no different here. The perception system appears to be a way to prompt you to participate in the cycle, except that if you don't utilize perception you're just robbing yourself of content and rewards. It's like killing monsters in WoW while never picking up the quests that would have rewarded you for killing those monsters (which you were going to do either way).
To contrast, crafting has almost always been a huge time and money sink in any MMO, and you can typically only master one or two crafts. Are you going to choose not to craft to sell your mats? If not, what professions will you take instead of others? Are you going to craft things to use or things to sell knowing that you'd make less money than selling raw materials in the short term? Those are real choices. On top of that crafting is a truly optional system because the core gameplay cycle is not about crafting. That is to say, regardless of where you go you probably aren't going to miss out on any actual game content by choosing not to craft.
Maybe we'll see more details about perception that will change my...perception of it in the future. For now it looks like a value add and the objectively correct way to interact with the game for 100% of players because it unlocks additional core content and rewards for things you were probably doing anyway, which leads me back to my original question. Is being a Keeper really optional? Right now the answer seems to be "Technically yes, but only if you don't like the core game to begin with," in which case the game was either never made for you or there is a fundamental flaw in the gameplay.
Beefcake said:Perception is optional. If you put time and effort into it, you get benefits if you don't, the benefits are not gained. Not everyone is just to that. It's ok.
Its no different than crafting. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as making items that give you an advantage over other players.
Its no different than raiding. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as looting items that give you an advantage over other players.
Its no different than Progeny. You put the time and effort and you get the benefits, such as earning abilities that give you an advantage over other players.
Pantheon is about choices and rewards. All these systems are optional and give advantages. You don't think it's worth it, don't do it.
But, don't start this crap saying it's required. The same ole trope gets brought out for every proposed system. Its optional. If you think the benefits outweigh the costs, it may be required for YOU. But, like most here in this forum, you have to remember that there will be more people than you playing this game and they might not agree with you about what is optional or not.
I would have worded it a little more politely and professionally but the majority of this statement from Beefcake is pretty accurate, it is your choice whether you want to invest time in learning and becoming better at Perception, just like choosing to learn and become better at a crafting trade to make a top tier weapon, other players who put that effort in don't then make you feel forced into needing to grind out crafting and become a top crater too, so why should this be any different?
We really do need to move away from the outcry that pops up every time we announce or propose a system as - optional - and then have people get upset saying they will be forced to do it, no one is forced to do anything, you guys need to weigh up your options and pick which crafts, systems and skills best suit your character and playstyle and work hard at becoming good in those areas, stop worrying about others being better in something and just worry about what you want to be good at.
If we let everyone be good at everything we will end up with bland, generic, boring MMOPRPG #88271 - we don't want to be a number like that with Pantheon, this is our game with our ideas and vision, we are gamers just like you that played the same games as you, we know what we like and don't like and while this won't be for everyone it will be pretty close to what you all want to play too but you need to give it a chance and wait until you get to test these things first hand before blowing opinions and assumptions out of control, it helps no one.
To answer the thread title;
Yes, it is optional. :)
Bazgrim said:Beefcake said:it appears to give you knowledge of encounters, such as detecting dispotions.
To me, this makes it non-optional. I'd like to know how this aspect of it would not be considered an advantage. It seems like this would pressure people into becoming a Keeper when they would otherwise not.
Correct, Bazgrim, that's exactly how it would be for anyone I know that plays MMO's. /shrug
Kilsin said:I would have worded it a little more politely and professionally but the majority of this statement from Beefcake is pretty accurate, it is your choice whether you want to invest time in learning and becoming better at Perception, just like choosing to learn and become better at a crafting trade to make a top tier weapon, other players who put that effort in don't then make you feel forced into needing to grind out crafting and become a top crater too, so why should this be any different?
We really do need to move away from the outcry that pops up every time we announce or propose a system as - optional - and then have people get upset saying they will be forced to do it, no one is forced to do anything, you guys need to weigh up your options and pick which crafts, systems and skills best suit your character and playstyle and work hard at becoming good in those areas, stop worrying about others being better in something and just worry about what you want to be good at.
If we let everyone be good at everything we will end up with bland, generic, boring MMOPRPG #88271 - we don't want to be a number like that with Pantheon, this is our game with our ideas and vision, we are gamers just like you that played the same games as you, we know what we like and don't like and while this won't be for everyone it will be pretty close to what you all want to play too but you need to give it a chance and wait until you get to test these things first hand before blowing opinions and assumptions out of control, it helps no one.
To answer the thread title;Yes, it is optional. :)
From my perspective I raised a legitimate question about game design, and in my opinion 'outcry' is a strong word for that. Like you said, you can't let everyone be good at everything, but what we currently know about being a Keeper is that everyone can be good at it without sacrificing anything else.
In my previous post I laid out a couple pretty good reasons why you wouldn't craft. The perception system is not analogous to crafting, though. Perception unlocks content you couldn't otherwise access - e.g. getting a key to open up a part of a dungeon that is inaccessible to non Keepers. Crafting is not content - it's a tool you can choose to employ to help you experience content. No parts of the core game experience are likely to be gated behind crafting.
It's not about being upset that I'm forced into the system. In fact I'm not upset at all - as a supporter I'm excited to finally play the game when beta rolls around. I just thought this was a game design topic worth discussing because perception seems interesting, but it also seems like a missed opportunity to introduce meaningful decision making into shaping your character's identity from a game mechanics standpoint.
Do you need to be a blacksmith to obtain a crafted set of armor? No. But someone has to be.
Do you need to be a keeper to start your group on a quest? No. But someone has to be.
in that a keeper and a crafter are the same.
Do I know if this is how it's going to be? No. But I also know that I don't know how it's not going to be.
So speculate on. Don't say you have to do something or must do something when Kilsin just told us its optional. :)
Durp said:Kilsin just told us its optional. :)
yes but that does not answer the question. we knew before that VR says it's optional. just as they said no instances (but sharding) or no quest hubs (but pop up quests). and there's people here who disagree with their view of what that really means. so i think it's legitimate to ask, if VRs view on "optional" matches your own. and this cannot be answered by "yes it's optional". it can only be answered by giving details that have been asked. and the same details may as well answer the "is it optional" question differently for different people. for example raiding is optional, as long as you don't mind not having the best gear in the game. but if you want to have the best gear in the game, raiding is not optional anymore.
crafting is optional in all MMOs that i know. but in some, there's no drop items that you can only get by crafting. in such a case, it's not optional for some people who want those items.
rojo said:Kilsin said:I would have worded it a little more politely and professionally but the majority of this statement from Beefcake is pretty accurate, it is your choice whether you want to invest time in learning and becoming better at Perception, just like choosing to learn and become better at a crafting trade to make a top tier weapon, other players who put that effort in don't then make you feel forced into needing to grind out crafting and become a top crater too, so why should this be any different?
We really do need to move away from the outcry that pops up every time we announce or propose a system as - optional - and then have people get upset saying they will be forced to do it, no one is forced to do anything, you guys need to weigh up your options and pick which crafts, systems and skills best suit your character and playstyle and work hard at becoming good in those areas, stop worrying about others being better in something and just worry about what you want to be good at.
If we let everyone be good at everything we will end up with bland, generic, boring MMOPRPG #88271 - we don't want to be a number like that with Pantheon, this is our game with our ideas and vision, we are gamers just like you that played the same games as you, we know what we like and don't like and while this won't be for everyone it will be pretty close to what you all want to play too but you need to give it a chance and wait until you get to test these things first hand before blowing opinions and assumptions out of control, it helps no one.
To answer the thread title;Yes, it is optional. :)
From my perspective I raised a legitimate question about game design, and in my opinion 'outcry' is a strong word for that. Like you said, you can't let everyone be good at everything, but what we currently know about being a Keeper is that everyone can be good at it without sacrificing anything else.
In my previous post I laid out a couple pretty good reasons why you wouldn't craft. The perception system is not analogous to crafting, though. Perception unlocks content you couldn't otherwise access - e.g. getting a key to open up a part of a dungeon that is inaccessible to non Keepers. Crafting is not content - it's a tool you can choose to employ to help you experience content. No parts of the core game experience are likely to be gated behind crafting.
It's not about being upset that I'm forced into the system. In fact I'm not upset at all - as a supporter I'm excited to finally play the game when beta rolls around. I just thought this was a game design topic worth discussing because perception seems interesting, but it also seems like a missed opportunity to introduce meaningful decision making into shaping your character's identity from a game mechanics standpoint.
I wasn't referring to you, my friend, I hadn't even read your reply to Beefcake before I responded to this thread as this is not the first thread on Perception and the same thing is happening with it that happened to the Progeny system threads, people have been upset in other threads and there has been an "outcry" in other threads and these people claim it isn't optional and then start a rampage of reasons why it is bad and will ruin the game without even knowing the full details, testing it first hand or knowing how it all hooks into other systems, mechanics and features, just from seeing a snippet of it in a video or stream, so my reply was more general for everyone reading and thinking of jumping on bored this topic to stop and think about it before they do.
You will find a lot of my replies are general and speak about everyone or just a mini statement not directed at any single person just for information or clarification, not specific people, what a lot of people don't understand is that games media, potential investors and people from outside these forums read a lot of these posts, I need them to have the correct information and I am forced to jump in and over explain things like this so things don't snowball from opinions and assumptions, which I can assure you, is annoying for both you folks and me! ;)
Kilsin said:I wasn't referring to you, my friend, I hadn't even read your reply to Beefcake before I responded to this thread as this is not the first thread on Perception and the same thing is happening with it that happened to the Progeny system threads, people have been upset in other threads and there has been an "outcry" in other threads and these people claim it isn't optional and then start a rampage of reasons why it is bad and will ruin the game without even knowing the full details, testing it first hand or knowing how it all hooks into other systems, mechanics and features, just from seeing a snippet of it in a video or stream, so my reply was more general for everyone reading and thinking of jumping on bored this topic to stop and think about it before they do.
You will find a lot of my replies are general and speak about everyone or just a mini statement not directed at any single person just for information or clarification, not specific people, what a lot of people don't understand is that games media, potential investors and people from outside these forums read a lot of these posts, I need them to have the correct information and I am forced to jump in and over explain things like this so things don't snowball from opinions and assumptions, which I can assure you, is annoying for both you folks and me! ;)
But seriously, fair enough. I know the game is still in alphaish so I'm looking forward to more details on perception and other systems.
Taking quests off NPC and putting them into the environment for you to come across more naturally as you explore makes a lot of sense to me.
Although I can't relate being a keeper to crafting in my mind. Becoming a keeper allows you to experience more adventuring content and being a crafter allows you to make items.
So maybe everyone should just be a "keeper" and have perception built right into all characters.
Afterall if you are not flagged as a keeper you will miss out on all that juicy lore text.
Thanks,
Kiz~
Valith said: The perception system seems like a wolf in sheeps clothing, and here's why... If you choose not to participate in these perceptions, and let's call them what they are, quests, you may be giving up meaningful ways to gain experience, coins, and items. Most players will not want to be held at a disadvantage and will want to spend their time as efficiently as possible, so bypassing the perception system will really not be a viable option. This leads me to the point of this post: The way this system is headed is virtually identical to questing although no quest log (as of now) will be created. The impetus to solve the quest of rescuing the maidens brother out from the cave is still hanging over the adventures head like a carrot dangling beneath a stick. The rails are on the track they are just hidden below so that most do not see them. I can only hope this system is tossed in the fire and the team focuses their effort on creating more nuanced gameplay. Or perhaps a perception free server is allowed without the hand holding.
There is nothing wrong with questing. You don't like it, ignore it. Just like you do with any reasonable logic.
If all you want to do is kill mobs, go for it. But, some people like story and lore. There is more to a RPG than just killing mobs.
Have to agree with Beefcake. I dont see a need to toss this system in the fire. It could use some tweaks and such sure, but I like it overall. Plus I dont see it as handholding, and I do like story and lore.
An assumption I see people making is that its not optional cause they will miss out on something. Maybe you just need to be in the same party/raid as a Keeper? So in that way its also like a profession. You dont have to be a blacksmith to be able to have a crafted weapon. And its possible you dont have to be a keeper to have access to a cool questline. You just need a blacksmith or a Keeper.
In the last monk themed stream when the question was asked (38 minute mark) about knowing a mobs AI type and the answer was basically if someone has chosen to be a keeper they might be able to tell but most won’t be able to.
This part really make it sound as though the devs feel that being a keeper is something not many people will choose to participate in. Which seems odd as it sounds like a very vital part of playing the game. I get that in a crafting sense you don’t want to have every single person a blacksmith or an alchemist but if this is tied to participating in quests I just don’t see why people might choose to skip it. Like telling a guild member about this awesome quest you just finished but they tell you they aren’t being a keeper so they can’t do it.
Now the way I try to rationalize this is maybe someone just gets behind on using the “investigate skill” so they may have a skill not high enough to pass a level 40 perception check. So they have to back track to the level 30 area and run around clicking investigate on all the “locations of interest” till they have the skill needed for that level 40 check. Like if you forgot your class had the kick ability and you try to use it after ten levels of not using it and it never lands because your skill is too low for current content. I get that but now wanting to participate is what I don’t get.
