These type of attacks are very important in Pen n' Paper rpg and make their way into quite a few single player type games also.
I feel like MMO have never even tried them but I could be wrong.
An attack of opportunity occurs when a player who is engaged in melee with a mob changes position to be out of melee range and then recieves a free round of attacks from said mob for disengaging.
Tactically these type of attacks are crucial to the flow of DnD or Pathfinder and I wonder if somehow this could be recreated in an MMO.
Maybe not every mob has access to this type of attack but I would like to see the melee centric mobs be able to do this at mid to higher levels.
How do you feel about these kind of attacks ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
I think this would translate better with turn-based rather than real-time combat. In games with RTC there are alternative/additional mechanics such as critical strike chance or positioning bonus, such as a rogue class getting a bonus for backstabs or attacking from stealth. It could be added as a bonus to an enemy NPC's attack if they hit you when you have their back turned to them, and enemy AI could be tuned to exploit opportunities to do so. But the concept would be a bit different - it wouldn't interrupt an opponent's turn to land an out-of-turn attack.
I haven't played DnD for many years, but I've seen a few twitch streams. I was under the impression that there was an action called "disengage" that you could take to prevent an attack of opportunity. This allowed you to safely back off enough that the enemy would have to pursue, but not far enough to avoid their strikes. It seems like the attacks of opportunity in pen and paper roleplaying are supposed to represent turning ones back to an opponent to pursue another course of action, otherwise characters in combat would have incentive to ping around the map like pinballs. In real time combat retreating has the same two styles - careful and quick. If you are retreating in MMO RTC without dropping your guard (backpedaling), this can be seen as a careful disengage. If you are retreating quickly (turning and running), then you expose your back to the enemy. In most MMOs, turning your back to an enemy already yields an advantage in that parrying or blocking can only be done against targets in front of you, so attacking a retreating enemy already does have a benefit.
I guess what I'm saying is that attacks of opportunity are just a reward for an enemy turning their back to you, which already exists in MMOs. In pen and paper this is a much more impactful mechanic, but in those games combat dynamics are often different than in MMOs. In many MMOs the "dog pile on the mob's tail" that we see is very common and are a result of rear attacks being rewarded and while I'm not a huge fan of that these days, it certainly is a clear result of common sense combat mechanics. If they wanted to change more towards attack of opportunity for changing relative position, then there would have to be some way of establishing where each character's sphere of influence was and whether or not the retreat was careful or quick, and that just doesn't seem to fit in with the combat we've seen to date.
Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, it's a good point to bring up and hopefully someone will come in an disagree with me.
Kiz,
Kudos for bringing this up (I love me some tabletop), but as Daemonios said, im not sure how relevant it is in a "realtime" game. I think logicaly attack of opportunity (AoO) in tabletop rose to demonstrate the realism of a character gaining an advantage against their foe and logicstically to keep all the players engaged when its not their turn. In a MMO, a player gets that sense by their reaction time. Developers often give classes mechanics to mimic that kind of playstyle: a rogue may interrupt a spell for example. In EQI, if you were sitting down you would be hit flatfooded, and I believe the flanking bonus existed (someone tell me if i am wrong, its been awhile).
Rewarding players for positioning is a neat idea, but I dont know if AoO are needed.
Real time single player games have done this for a while.
Even in EQ 1 if you sat down right next to a mob it would prioritize you and take 1 round of melee attacks to stand you back up.
All I'm saying is that maybe there should be more rules about who is getting attacked at any given moment.
If a player turns his back to a mob in melee combat maybe he should eat a round of attacks.
Thanks for discussing, this topic is interesting to me,
Kiz~
In realtime if you turn to flee, the mob is going to still be hitting you even if you are running. It has kindof been built into every MMO.
Niloiv said:Kiz,
Kudos for bringing this up (I love me some tabletop), but as Daemonios said, im not sure how relevant it is in a "realtime" game. I think logicaly attack of opportunity (AoO) in tabletop rose to demonstrate the realism of a character gaining an advantage against their foe and logicstically to keep all the players engaged when its not their turn. In a MMO, a player gets that sense by their reaction time. Developers often give classes mechanics to mimic that kind of playstyle: a rogue may interrupt a spell for example. In EQI, if you were sitting down you would be hit flatfooded, and I believe the flanking bonus existed (someone tell me if i am wrong, its been awhile).
Rewarding players for positioning is a neat idea, but I dont know if AoO are needed.
You know I was thinking the way this could translate over is the way World of Warcraft first used 'Overpower'. It was an ability which only happened if your target dodged. So basically the 'opportunity' is rare and you have to look out for it. when it presents itself you slam that button.
-Todd
Maximis said:In realtime if you turn to flee, the mob is going to still be hitting you even if you are running. It has kindof been built into every MMO.
Not if you don't already have agro.
What I'm saying is if 2 people are fighting a mob in melee combat and the person without agro turns to attack another mob he should take agro from the first mob for switching targets.
Well at least for 1 round of attacks.
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:Maximis said:In realtime if you turn to flee, the mob is going to still be hitting you even if you are running. It has kindof been built into every MMO.
Not if you don't already have agro.
What I'm saying is if 2 people are fighting a mob in melee combat and the person without agro turns to attack another mob he should take agro from the first mob for switching targets.
Well at least for 1 round of attacks.
Kiz~
That ignores the concept of aggro. Using your same example.. a raid of 30 people are killing a mob... an add spawns.. several switch targets to pick up the adds...does the main mob get a free hit on everyone who switched targets?
EQ2 had a system which did this when it first launched, I thought it was very well worked out and well implemented, called heroic opportunities. From memory most people did not like it, I think it was ahead of its time and considered too radical. This is how it worked;
When you perform a Heroic Opportunity by yourself, you get a minor bonus effect. When a group of players work together to perform a more complicated Heroic Opportunity, the bonus effect is more significant. Completing Heroic Opportunities in groups requires a lot of attention but produces dramatic results. For a discussion on group Heroic Opportunities, see the guide on groups.
I have always thought this was one of the better new ideas EQ2 introduced and think a system like this would be beneficial for Pantheon.
Maximis said:Angrykiz said:Maximis said:In realtime if you turn to flee, the mob is going to still be hitting you even if you are running. It has kindof been built into every MMO.
Not if you don't already have agro.
What I'm saying is if 2 people are fighting a mob in melee combat and the person without agro turns to attack another mob he should take agro from the first mob for switching targets.
Well at least for 1 round of attacks.
Kiz~
That ignores the concept of aggro. Using your same example.. a raid of 30 people are killing a mob... an add spawns.. several switch targets to pick up the adds...does the main mob get a free hit on everyone who switched targets?
Only if those people were in the front attack arc of the mob and not paying attention to positioning.
Kiz~
cromwell said:EQ2 had a system which did this when it first launched, I thought it was very well worked out and well implemented, called heroic opportunities. From memory most people did not like it, I think it was ahead of its time and considered too radical. This is how it worked;
- Starter Ability: You trigger Heroic Opportunities manually using a starter ability that you receive at level 5: lucky break for Scout archetype classes, fighting chance for Fighter archetype classes, arcane auger for Mage archetype classes and divine providence for Priest archetype classes.
- Starter Chain: When you or your group friend uses their starter ability, you'll see the "Starter Chain" graphic appear on the right-hand side of your screen. The flashing symbols show you the possible spells or combat arts that can produce a Heroic Opportunity. There's no time limit on completing the starter chain, but if you cast a spell that doesn't satisfy the symbols, then the opportunity is lost.
- Combat Wheel: Once the Starter Chain has been completed, the main Heroic Opportunity combat wheel appears. The name of the bonus effect is shown below the wheel (which has been chosen randomly based on the Starter Chain that was completed). To get the bonus effect, your group must cast spells or combat arts to match the symbols shown around the wheel. You have 10 seconds to do this before the Heroic Opportunity expires; a circular bar graph shows you how much time remains. Once all of the required symbols have been satisfied, the bonus effect takes place.
When you perform a Heroic Opportunity by yourself, you get a minor bonus effect. When a group of players work together to perform a more complicated Heroic Opportunity, the bonus effect is more significant. Completing Heroic Opportunities in groups requires a lot of attention but produces dramatic results. For a discussion on group Heroic Opportunities, see the guide on groups.
I have always thought this was one of the better new ideas EQ2 introduced and think a system like this would be beneficial for Pantheon.
I think it's good to encourage players to synergize their abilities and work together. That's certainly a goal for Pantheon. But I think Heroic Opportunities border on a point where it becomes artificial. If overdone, this kind of system can start to feel like you're just playing Guitar Hero, rather than being actively engaged and immersed in combat while considering different strategies. So I don't think the chains should be any longer than 2 or 3 abilities, or else you'll probably spend too much time just looking at the UI. Gotta find a balance.
From the FAQ: (13.2) "We don’t want to create a detailed combo system, but we like the idea of synergetic abilities and the opportunity for players abilities to open up possible actions for others."
This would be hard to do, and the whole switching targets cuasing them to get attacked would be very hard of healers, lets say you have a raid target or even the target that they fought in a video where he spawned adds if everyone switched targets to pick up these adds time and time again to make sure they weren't running rampart through your grp the main mob would have so many AoO to where just switching targets might of been the whole reason why you got wiped to begin with, let alone if you didn't switch targets would also cuase you to get wiped becuase your healer would be a punching bag for of the adds that popped up.
I like the ide of attacks of opportunity. Hits after a successful block or disarm or even a surprise attack for Rogues. This would work for casters also. The ability to get a second fast spell to hit the target would be an asset in my book. It all depends on the combat mechanics for the class.
The ability would be an enhancement to the combat we already have.
Ox
It could be a PVP feature, I'd mainly for melee to avoid excessive kiting (Kiting should be a thing, but not tree hugging).
But you would need to have the skill in your bar to be able to get an Attack of opportunity, allowing the use of the spell on your current target if it has triggered the effect.
Thus It would mean "barely used in PVE, taking a slot for bonus efficiency against casters in PVP".
Angrykiz said:These type of attacks are very important in Pen n' Paper rpg and make their way into quite a few single player type games also.
I feel like MMO have never even tried them but I could be wrong.
An attack of opportunity occurs when a player who is engaged in melee with a mob changes position to be out of melee range and then recieves a free round of attacks from said mob for disengaging.
Tactically these type of attacks are crucial to the flow of DnD or Pathfinder and I wonder if somehow this could be recreated in an MMO.
Maybe not every mob has access to this type of attack but I would like to see the melee centric mobs be able to do this at mid to higher levels.
How do you feel about these kind of attacks ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
As others have said, not likely in a none turn-based game, but don't turn your back on mobs, as backstabs could be a reality.