Some of the questing in EQ and Vanguard was great but what I'd love to see is some secret quests. Quests that maybe 99% of the population won't even know exist or that one player randomly finds in the middle of nowhere. Imagine you are in the depths of a zone and there are no paths anywhere near you and you just see a small ground spawn. You walk over to it and it turns out to be a book on a 7 day spawn counter (so even if other players know about it finding it actually spawned will be next to impossible). Inside the book is the start to a huge epic quest that takes you all over the world and once completed gives you a pretty good piece of armour. It doesn't have to be an actual epic quest just a very long quest that takes a long time to complete.
Or maybe you find a corpse in a cave which has a hidden entrance that you have to walk through a fake wall that is off in an area that is no where near where players would go normally. Only the most dedicated explorers would find the cave in the first place and only those that explore the cave will find the corpse which starts off a quest.
These hidden or secret quests could give you an extra special reward because a) they are extremely hard to find in the first place and b) beacuse they could start a really long epic quest line that takes hours / days / weeks to complete.
What does everyone else think? Would you like quests to exist that are almost impossible to find for the vast majority of players?
Beefcake said:Nothingis secret once it hits the Internet.
True but if you take the first example I gave of having a ground spawn that takes 7 days to respawn even if everyone knew about it only a few people would actually be able to get the ground spawn to start the quest and even fewer would actually finish the quest line.
This type of "secret" quest seems good to me but needs a little twinking.
7 day timer is a little harsh to me.
It should be a shareable quest, maybe with a group. Otherwise you are set to be solo on this quest for a long time because it would be hard to get someone to help you for such a long quest without no possibility of reward at the end.
Maybe if it is a quest that would involve your guild getting some kind of status at the end, like points toward guild level it could then be viable to have a long timer for respawn. And not be repeatable for the guild.
Also as Beefcake stated "nothing is secret on the internet". so people would be searching for that spawn continuously.
I think though that is part of the perception system that VR stated would be ingame. Not enough perception means no ability to find these type quests.
The only internet secret I know of is Alpha and Beta release andit is well kept.(wink)
Isaya said:This type of "secret" quest seems good to me but needs a little twinking.
7 day timer is a little harsh to me.
It should be a shareable quest, maybe with a group. Otherwise you are set to be solo on this quest for a long time because it would be hard to get someone to help you for such a long quest without no possibility of reward at the end.
Maybe if it is a quest that would involve your guild getting some kind of status at the end, like points toward guild level it could then be viable to have a long timer for respawn. And not be repeatable for the guild.
Also as Beefcake stated "nothing is secret on the internet". so people would be searching for that spawn continuously.
I think though that is part of the perception system that VR stated would be ingame. Not enough perception means no ability to find these type quests.
The only internet secret I know of is Alpha and Beta release andit is well kept.(wink)
I think friends will help people out even if they don't get a reward. I know guild mates helped me out with parts of my epic quest even though they didn't get any loot or money. But I'd be open to having the quest be sharable (at least in parts). I think sharing the whole quest line though would reduce the value of the reward at the end.
Ideally you could split the quest line up into 4 or 5 parts each with a named mob at the end that dropped loot. You could share one or two parts and then the people taking part could get a chance of the loot that the named mob drops but having the whole quest line sharable would just mean that everyone would share it with as many people as possible.
Won't quests be more or less secret anyway? Still the idea of this thread does have potential. It would be kewl if a map or something is on the ground players can find that start a quest. It would be fun if a piece of paper floating in the wind can be grabbed by a player curious enough to try to get it and on reading it learn of quest or quest line. Yeah...the more I think on this the more I'm liking it. Though I'm not for timers that are too too long.
When I said above that quests might be more or less secret anyway; I meant in as far as we won't have question marks indicating which NPC has one. We'll have to talk with them. Some may also be in far flung off the beaten path places.
Risingmist said:When I said above that quests might be more or less secret anyway; I meant in as far as we won't have question marks indicating which NPC has one. We'll have to talk with them. Some may also be in far flung off the beaten path places.
True. But I wouldn't call that secret. EQ didn't have question marks over peoples heads and players still managed to find the quests without too much hard work. In this thread I'm talking about really secret stuff that only happens rarely or is really difficult to find if you don't explore every inch of a zone.
Exploring is a really important part of an MMO for me as you end up learning all about the zones and what is in them. Having someone in the group who knows where everything is really valuable as well especially if you don't know the zone that well yourself.
Cromulent said:Risingmist said:When I said above that quests might be more or less secret anyway; I meant in as far as we won't have question marks indicating which NPC has one. We'll have to talk with them. Some may also be in far flung off the beaten path places.
True. But I wouldn't call that secret. EQ didn't have question marks over peoples heads and players still managed to find the quests without too much hard work. In this thread I'm talking about really secret stuff that only happens rarely or is really difficult to find if you don't explore every inch of a zone.
Exploring is a really important part of an MMO for me as you end up learning all about the zones and what is in them. Having someone in the group who knows where everything is really valuable as well especially if you don't know the zone that well yourself.
Good point. I misunderstood you. I appreciate you explaining. Yeah, I'm liking the idea. I do think that it may be fun if some hidden quests were kind of random as in part of the enviroment. I think I suggested that maybe a loss piece of parchment/paper floating in the wind might be a way of introducing a hidden quest. I mean a NPC explorer may have died and the wind carried off their map? Just trying to think outside the box. My thinking is that it doesn't necessairly have to be an NPC. Maybe the environment can somehow be also used for hidden quests.
True Cromulent many friends and guildies will help you. They always help in epic quests and the like. But you are talking "epic type quests that last weeks." If it is epic then you will need help with many phases and people who cannot find that quest may be reluctant to spend that much time on a quest strictly for someone elses benefit. Although I myself would relish the opportunuty to go on a quest like that to help someone else. That is my type of gaming and the shear exp benefit you get for mobs and the adventuring you do is invaluable.
Risingmist said:Cromulent said:Risingmist said:When I said above that quests might be more or less secret anyway; I meant in as far as we won't have question marks indicating which NPC has one. We'll have to talk with them. Some may also be in far flung off the beaten path places.
True. But I wouldn't call that secret. EQ didn't have question marks over peoples heads and players still managed to find the quests without too much hard work. In this thread I'm talking about really secret stuff that only happens rarely or is really difficult to find if you don't explore every inch of a zone.
Exploring is a really important part of an MMO for me as you end up learning all about the zones and what is in them. Having someone in the group who knows where everything is really valuable as well especially if you don't know the zone that well yourself.
Good point. I misunderstood you. I appreciate you explaining. Yeah, I'm liking the idea. I do think that it may be fun if some hidden quests were kind of random as in part of the enviroment. I think I suggested that maybe a loss piece of parchment/paper floating in the wind might be a way of introducing a hidden quest. I mean a NPC explorer may have died and the wind carried off their map? Just trying to think outside the box. My thinking is that it doesn't necessairly have to be an NPC. Maybe the environment can somehow be also used for hidden quests.
Yeah I like that idea of a piece of paper on the wind. That could work well.
How about this for an idea. How about having one long epic quest line but with random ways to start it. No one knows which way is currently active and there could be 5 or 10 different ways to get the quest. We all know that making quests is hard for the developers because it takes a long time. This way they only need to make one quest but then they can make 5 to 10 different ways to get given the quest that can rotate randonly so it makes it next to impossible for players to post on the internet how to get the quest because they will never be sure which option is currently active or whether they even know what all the different options actually are.
That would be a real secret quest and would be quite easy for the developers to implement because it would only require making one epic quest line rather than multiple ones.
Risingmist said:When I said above that quests might be more or less secret anyway; I meant in as far as we won't have question marks indicating which NPC has one. We'll have to talk with them. Some may also be in far flung off the beaten path places.
There are not any question marks anyway.
This is how all quests will start. A secret, till found. The only way to add new quests is to not announce them in patch notes, then they are secret quests. I think that this is how it's intended though because of the perception system. The skill that hints at "secret" quests you wouldn't otherwise know about, yes?
The perception system will help there i think yes.
Certain class specific quests that can only be experienced by them?
Maybe there could be secret areas in the starting areas.But players need to have completed a certain portion of the game + gather the items required in order to travel to that secret zone
Certain secrets would require you to have a certain skill at grandmaster ,in order for you to be able to discover them with the perception skill
Rogue said:Risingmist said:When I said above that quests might be more or less secret anyway; I meant in as far as we won't have question marks indicating which NPC has one. We'll have to talk with them. Some may also be in far flung off the beaten path places.
There are not any question marks anyway.
This is how all quests will start. A secret, till found. The only way to add new quests is to not announce them in patch notes, then they are secret quests. I think that this is how it's intended though because of the perception system. The skill that hints at "secret" quests you wouldn't otherwise know about, yes?
When many of us mention a distaste for question marks it's because we do not want Pantheon to be like WoW. Many of us believe that questionmarks take from immersion and more importantly they're an eye sore. I'm sure there are other ways for a quest giver to be recognized should a player be observant, providing of course, it's within VR's vision to have some type of visual tell. Such as: if we're in a town and an NPC is yelling for help players observing can then simply hail the NPC and a dialog starts. It keeps immersion and some realism without the visual clutter of question marks. I do not know VR's intent with this matter. However, I'm certain whatever mythod is created by them will be great.
I'm sorry, I disagree with exclusive or quasi-exclusive content on a general principle. We don't need to replicate real life's haves and have-nots in a game. I don't get a kick from having something nobody else can have in a game. I think the benefit to the player who gets something exclusive is far outweighed by the depriving others of that thing. Also, it seems to me a waste of developers' resources. Why would they take the time to design and implement quests, create in-game assets, dialogues and encounters, if only a single person or a handful of people will ever experience them?
I can understand rarity. Getting that rare epic gear should be a driver for players to engage the game. But it only works if you know you actually stand a chance to get the reward and that it won't disappear entirely once the first person gets it. So basically, hidden/hard to find quest are fine by me. Exclusive ones I'd rather not have in the game.
I read the OP's comment as being more like, how discovering a quest for the first time made you feel - not special- but selected. Kind of like the feeling of finding the bargain in a flea market where it is clear the seller did not see the value, but in a Game setting. It is from this Iike to believe the Devs have some Meta game they can play where they play the players, i.e. create a series of unfortunate or fortunate events within the environment or by taking control of a monster that forces/guides the player toward or down a certain path. Kind of like a good dungeon master in a DnD game, but I dont think this is feasible for you would need maybe a 1 to 6 ratio of dungeon master to player where the players are on at the same time- maybe once a week? what happens when the players are on every day but I digress.
But the grist of what I think the OP is saying is: as if by your own, self, the way you do things. You, and not others found the pebble of khartoom-gadar from catching the glint of light reflected off its surface while in the dungeon- not knowing it is a piece of the great statue Basam-Kedesh but sensing (perhaps with perception) that "this looks like it came from an ancient, important...thing" and being lead form there.
Or like finding JRR tolkiens ring. Ha HA, now for your own introspection will you Bilbo the ring? or Golum the ring? like, Hey peeps!, look what I found!" or "ooohhhhhhhh.....I must think about this privtely and how do i get to kedesh without having to tell people why I am REALLY 'adventuring' there".
Manouk said:I read the OP's comment as being more like, how discovering a quest for the first time made you feel - not special- but selected. Kind of like the feeling of finding the bargain in a flea market where it is clear the seller did not see the value, but in a Game setting. It is from this Iike to believe the Devs have some Meta game they can play where they play the players, i.e. create a series of unfortunate or fortunate events within the environment or by taking control of a monster that forces/guides the player toward or down a certain path. Kind of like a good dungeon master in a DnD game, but I dont think this is feasible for you would need maybe a 1 to 6 ratio of dungeon master to player where the players are on at the same time- maybe once a week? what happens when the players are on every day but I digress.
But the grist of what I think the OP is saying is: as if by your own, self, the way you do things. You, and not others found the pebble of khartoom-gadar from catching the glint of light reflected off its surface while in the dungeon- not knowing it is a piece of the great statue Basam-Kedesh but sensing (perhaps with perception) that "this looks like it came from an ancient, important...thing" and being lead form there.
Or like finding JRR tolkiens ring. Ha HA, now for your own introspection will you Bilbo the ring? or Golum the ring? like:Hey peeps!, look what I found!" or "ooohhhhhhhh.....I must think about this privtely and how do i get to kedesh without having to tell people why I am REALLY 'adventuring' there".
Yeah. Exactly.
It is not so much about being exclusive (although I do think that is important). It is about rewarding players for properly playing by exploring and looking around when you play the game. If you are just one of those hardcore players that just levels in the most efficient areas and just race to max level as fast as you possibly can I want them to miss out on things like this because they are not exploring or looking around when they level. They just sit in one area and grind until the XP rates slow.
Pantheon is meant to be an old school game and old school games rewarded players for doing things other than just XP grind as fast as possible and that is what I'd like to see in Pantheon. Reward exploration. Reward talking to NPCs that are way out in the wilderness. Reward curiosity. Bascially it is just a way of trying to make players want to do things rather than just XP grind to max level as fast as possible.
As I see it,exclusive content is important.Otherwise we'll have it all in 1 trip and the areas are no longer worth a revisit
Exlusive content helps to keep the game replayable too.
It is not about having something nobody else can have in game,because they can if they experience a journey from a different perspective,race,class.
Exclusive content helps to create a certain connection a class/race has to the world.
With so many races ,I think it would be wrong if one character could discover all pantheon has to offer.
Fluffy said:As I see it,exclusive content is important.Otherwise we'll have it all in 1 trip and the areas are no longer worth a revisit
Exlusive content helps to keep the game replayable too.
It is not about having something nobody else can have in game,because they can if they experience a journey from a different perspective,race,class.
Exclusive content helps to create a certain connection a class/race has to the world.
With so many races ,I think it would be wrong if one character could discover all pantheon has to offer.
I guess it depends on someones deffination of exclusive. For my part I think exclusive should mean something a character earned. I am not for items only available to a certain few. I think everyone should have a reasonable shot/ opportunity to gain any item, title or whatever. Imo this does not mean everyone will succeed. I simply mean everyone should have a reasonable chance to earn whatever it is they are after. Of course said individuals must put forth the effort and wether they succeed or fail won't be known until the attemp is done.To me exclusive should mean what is earned.
Risingmist said:Fluffy said:As I see it,exclusive content is important.Otherwise we'll have it all in 1 trip and the areas are no longer worth a revisit
Exlusive content helps to keep the game replayable too.
It is not about having something nobody else can have in game,because they can if they experience a journey from a different perspective,race,class.
Exclusive content helps to create a certain connection a class/race has to the world.
With so many races ,I think it would be wrong if one character could discover all pantheon has to offer.I guess it depends on someones deffination of exclusive. For my part I think exclusive should mean something a character earned. I am not for items only available to a certain few. I think everyone should have a reasonable shot/ opportunity to gain any item, title or whatever. Imo this does not mean everyone will succeed. I simply mean everyone should have a reasonable chance to earn whatever it is they are after. Of course said individuals must put forth the effort and wether they succeed or fail won't be known until the attemp is done.To me exclusive should mean what is earned.
Oh. My ideas are available for all but only if they put forward the effort to really explore the world. If they just stick to the paths or the best XP spots they will miss out on what I am suggesting but if players run everywhere exploring all the tiny little places that very few people bother to go to then they might be rewarded with a secret quest.
That is what I mean by a secret quest. Quests that you really have to want to find in order to get them. You can't expect to find everything in the world if all you do is go to the major meeting spots or just follow the path or something.
Cromulent said:Risingmist said:Fluffy said:As I see it,exclusive content is important.Otherwise we'll have it all in 1 trip and the areas are no longer worth a revisit
Exlusive content helps to keep the game replayable too.
It is not about having something nobody else can have in game,because they can if they experience a journey from a different perspective,race,class.
Exclusive content helps to create a certain connection a class/race has to the world.
With so many races ,I think it would be wrong if one character could discover all pantheon has to offer.I guess it depends on someones deffination of exclusive. For my part I think exclusive should mean something a character earned. I am not for items only available to a certain few. I think everyone should have a reasonable shot/ opportunity to gain any item, title or whatever. Imo this does not mean everyone will succeed. I simply mean everyone should have a reasonable chance to earn whatever it is they are after. Of course said individuals must put forth the effort and wether they succeed or fail won't be known until the attemp is done.To me exclusive should mean what is earned.
Oh. My ideas are available for all but only if they put forward the effort to really explore the world. If they just stick to the paths or the best XP spots they will miss out on what I am suggesting but if players run everywhere exploring all the tiny little places that very few people bother to go to then they might be rewarded with a secret quest.
That is what I mean by a secret quest. Quests that you really have to want to find in order to get them. You can't expect to find everything in the world if all you do is go to the major meeting spots or just follow the path or something.
I whole heartedly agree. Thanks for expanding on what you said. I appologize for my misunderstanding my friend. That's deffinately what I think exclusive should be.
I am definitely intrigued by the idea of having secret quests in the game. The one major concern I have with having a 7 day respawn timer is that people who have no interest in completing the quest could purposely consume this book on the ground but then have no intention of actually working on it, just as a way to block other people from accessing it. If it leads to an epic quest line, that means it will be highly sought after. It sounds way more severe than guilds poopsocking for raid content because rather than an entire guild being able to enjoy the contested content, it's only one person that would get the quest. This is especially true if the reward is anything worthwhile or if the quest experience itself is fun and provides unique content.
I think the idea has merit, but a few tweaks that make it more accessible could be in order. Please don't take this the wrong way -- I love seeing new ideas pop up on the forum, but as someone who has been sharing many of my own over the last few months, there are a couple observations I have made. First, how does the idea relate to the game tenets and information found on the FAQ page? If it's in line with all of that, you're off to a great start. If not, the conversation is bound to end up turning into a "Hardcore vs Casual" / "Raider vs Non-Raider" / "Forced vs Optional" rant that will derail the thread and focus on nothing but negativity.
That said, I'd like to share some feedback on the idea as you have so generously done with some of mine.
Tenets that seem to mesh well with this idea:
1) "An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward."
2) "An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
3) "A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige."
4) "An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding."
Tenets that could compliment the idea if it's tweaked some:
1) "A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned."
2) "A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge."
As far as how this could be accomplished, it all starts with making it more accessible. Beyond that, I have played many games where quest starters were somewhat randomized. Whether it was a book that spawned in multiple locations in a given zone or area, being a rare no-trade drop in that same zone/area, or even being an ultra-rare world drop ... these are a few ideas that I have seen that have worked.
Additionally, another idea to consider is that once these quests are found, perhaps add "secret" objectives? This could delay the quest being completed and being posted all over the internet. I have seen a few quests pulled off in this way that felt pretty epic while working on them. It was almost like a race where people from all different servers were trying to work on it together and share clues on how to advance. Generally, it requires a ton of exploration and great awareness as it relates to using "lore clues" to seek out certain areas/items/NPC kills that could trigger an update.
Finally, what if there are different objectives for different servers, or potentially on the same server? What I mean is ... the path of the quest is still somewhat linear, but the updates could potentially be randomized to some degree. Rather than a one size fits all shoe, there are multiple possibilities in how the quest could be advanced. Maybe your version of the quest requires an entirely different item/location/NPC kill update than someone else on the same or different server? This would require quite a bit of work from a design perspective, but it could definitely contribute toward the quest not being something that can be universally solved by Google. After awhile, perhaps all variations of the quest objectives could be known ... but this would take awhile, and could extend the shelf-life of this "secret objective" model.
Thank you for sharing the idea! I am definitely in favor of anything that feels epic, rare, or challenging. We just need to make sure that it's accessible enough to warrant all the time spent on creating the quest. If only 52 people per server can possibly complete this quest in a given year, is that enough? What if only a small fraction of the players who start that quest are even capable of getting the assistance needed to complete it? If it's a long quest that requires a bunch of design/programming, how could that be justified if only so few people are able to enjoy it? These are some of the concerns I have personally but I'm confident that with some TLC, this idea could turn into something awesome.
somehow I think these secret quest would make a hybrid between an MMO and an adventure game out of it
The perception system is an element often seen in adventure games.I believe adventure game elements might be just what the MMO genre is missing.
And secret quests would make it driven by exploration (and puzzle-solving too)
Normally an emphasis on story and character makes multi-player design difficult.And thus it is only used for single player
Secret quests might give weight to the perception system and really gives reasons to stop by to explore surroundings,engaging that game world.
It induces players with a sense of wonder about the world.
Issues with accessibility are questionable.(though a mix of accessible and secret quests might be needed)
Imagine a drunken fairy jumping through a field of flowers.Thousands of players walked by thinking it no more than part of the scenery.
But you discover the drunken fairy can actually be interacted with if you find the nectar of the flower that flowers once a year.
Unlocking the secret epic quest attached to it would be most gratifying.
As it induces players with a sense of wonder,I also believe secret quests could bring players closer together.
Imagine a cross-class cooperative puzzle that needs solving in order to repair a magical carriage that could get to the area behind the thick mist(what could be found there?an epic boss?a raid of some kind?or just a new area few have seen with new armor styles ,creatures etc)
A warrior could be able to find an odd giant shield that serves as a wheel,while the rogue needs to add the rope to tame the horses,a bard is needed to play a tune-keeping the horses from panicking while the magical carriage approach the mist,once cooperatively assembled
Each class could have a few items and the one required might not always be the same ,make them very rare or each class component could have a random locations(but in equally challenging zone to get to) to somewhat counter what beefcake mentioned-
Beefcake said:Nothingis secret once it hits the Internet.
I believe it would shift the focus from power and obsession with gear to
wonder about the world where players seek out each other to discover what is there
feeding into those tenets
*A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned*
*a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge*
Many of my favorite RPG pastimes included this sense of adventure that you speak of Fluffy. The average dungeon or tower experience in Lufia 2, for example, would include a variety of challenging puzzles that needed to be solved before you could advance. Zelda is a staple in the "adventure game" world that also has some interesting RPG elements tied into it, especially the new one! I have dabbled with it a bit lately and it's truely an epic game. There are many features present in that world that I would love to see in an MMO, including the harvesting system (climb trees and other surfaces to harvest certain materials) / cooking system / quest system / weapon/armor system / map system, etc. I do agree that the perception skill could play a critical role in how some of these features could be added into the gameplay in the most flavorful way possible, and am really excited/curious to see exactly how that feature of the game is implemented.
I also love Zelda games
and now that you bring up dungeons in Zelda,
They had these secret rooms and the whole dungeon often was some kind of puzzle layout to get to the next level and/or boss door.
Adventure game influence would make dungeons more exciting in Pantheon too I think.
Normally in MMOs you enter a dungeon,accept the quest(if you haven't done it) ,skip trashmobs, and often nothing stops you to skip pieces or chunks of content ,so called*speedruns*
Basically in mmo's it is enter dungeon-kill whatever -done (no or very little environmental awareness required)
If the dungeons layout is filled with interactive content and puzzles like in Zelda ,that would vastly improve dungeons.Because now you have to use brains and figure things out to progress in the dungeon.No more skipping.
Lack of group association thus won't get you far
I'd have me a zelda dungeon over an mmo-dungeon anyday
The perception system would no doubt play a huge role in many of such features,including secret quests. Really excited too.Infact I keep my fingers crossed they draw plenty of inspiration from adventure games.No other genre speaks to the imagination like those.
oneADseven said:I am definitely intrigued by the idea of having secret quests in the game. The one major concern I have with having a 7 day respawn timer is that people who have no interest in completing the quest could purposely consume this book on the ground but then have no intention of actually working on it, just as a way to block other people from accessing it. If it leads to an epic quest line, that means it will be highly sought after. It sounds way more severe than guilds poopsocking for raid content because rather than an entire guild being able to enjoy the contested content, it's only one person that would get the quest. This is especially true if the reward is anything worthwhile or if the quest experience itself is fun and provides unique content.
The 7 day timer was just an idea I had at the start. It is obviously open to discussion. The idea was simply to ensure that players had a reason to explore and to be rewarded for doing things that other players didn't do. I think that is the key point. I'm sure there are places in EQ where the vast majority of people never even bothered to go to and I'd like to change that so that people have a reason to go to the least explored areas of the game.
Maybe a player running off into a forest to look around on the ground or in trees for a secret item that no one else has found before. Things like that.
I found myself just spending my time XP grinding in EQ and did very little exploration. Most people just got in a group and grinded out the levels. It would be nice if quests allowed players a means to advance via exploration and discovery other than just sitting at the same place XP grinding all the time.