Forums » The Druid

Why would people want a druid?

    • 35 posts
    October 28, 2017 10:22 AM PDT

    Nukes

    Thorns

    Root AND Snare

    Evacs/Ports

    Charm/Mez animal

    Unique Buffs

    Strong Heals

     

     

    My static on Agnarr ran with a Druid, and we were one of the first groups to hit max level when the server launched. In retrospect, we probably would have dropped the Druid, but the class does have a certain flexibility to it. They start to shine in the mid to later levels, but fall off again when it comes to raids.

    • 80 posts
    October 28, 2017 11:19 AM PDT

    Nukes

    Thorns

    Root AND Snare

    Evacs/Ports

    Charm/Mez animal

    Unique Buffs

    Strong Heals

    My static on Agnarr ran with a Druid, and we were one of the first groups to hit max level when the server launched. In retrospect, we probably would have dropped the Druid, but the class does have a certain flexibility to it. They start to shine in the mid to later levels, but fall off again when it comes to raids.

    I do agree with you that Druids probably could do a lot better than people generally gave them credit, but generally people just felt other classes just ended up doing being a better slot investment.

    I don't want to end up in a situation where I pick a Druid, and not be able to really fill my main role simply because groups vastly preferring a Cleric for that position. Any sort of "Jack of all trades" often end up being in a position where they don't really excel at anything, and because of it not really being much in demand by anyone other than people wanting fast travel in Druids case.

    Being as Pantheon is the spiritual successor to EQ, and carries with a lot of the same community, it's not unexpected that a lot of the same expectations do carry over, but some things I think is better left in the past. Such as only one class being able to be the designated healer, or only having one class allowed to tank. There needs to be some level of flexibility when it comes to filling primary roles, and providing core features such as being able to rez other players or control adds.

     


    This post was edited by Menubrea at October 28, 2017 11:19 AM PDT
    • 35 posts
    October 29, 2017 8:10 AM PDT

    Menubrea said:

    Nukes

    Thorns

    Root AND Snare

    Evacs/Ports

    Charm/Mez animal

    Unique Buffs

    Strong Heals

    My static on Agnarr ran with a Druid, and we were one of the first groups to hit max level when the server launched. In retrospect, we probably would have dropped the Druid, but the class does have a certain flexibility to it. They start to shine in the mid to later levels, but fall off again when it comes to raids.

    I do agree with you that Druids probably could do a lot better than people generally gave them credit, but generally people just felt other classes just ended up doing being a better slot investment.

    I don't want to end up in a situation where I pick a Druid, and not be able to really fill my main role simply because groups vastly preferring a Cleric for that position. Any sort of "Jack of all trades" often end up being in a position where they don't really excel at anything, and because of it not really being much in demand by anyone other than people wanting fast travel in Druids case.

    Being as Pantheon is the spiritual successor to EQ, and carries with a lot of the same community, it's not unexpected that a lot of the same expectations do carry over, but some things I think is better left in the past. Such as only one class being able to be the designated healer, or only having one class allowed to tank. There needs to be some level of flexibility when it comes to filling primary roles, and providing core features such as being able to rez other players or control adds.

     

     

     

    Right, or conversely, they end up too good at everything, like we have seen in World of Warcraft at a few different points.

     

    If we start with the premise that all 3 main healing classes (Dru, Shm, Clr) are all equal at healing, and it's their UTILITY that seperates them, then I think we're starting at a good point.

     

    Everquest made the mistake of making Clerics the best healers, and THEN balancing utility. It just doesn't work.

     

    • 18 posts
    November 13, 2017 7:23 PM PST

    Dulu said:

     

     

    Right, or conversely, they end up too good at everything, like we have seen in World of Warcraft at a few different points.

     

    If we start with the premise that all 3 main healing classes (Dru, Shm, Clr) are all equal at healing, and it's their UTILITY that seperates them, then I think we're starting at a good point.

     

    Everquest made the mistake of making Clerics the best healers, and THEN balancing utility. It just doesn't work.

     

     

     

    That's why there is only one main healer class.  That's the cleric.

     

    Druids sacrifice optimized groupability for quality of life improvements - namely being able to yolo solo everything.   Can't have all the cake and eat it all.    Same to you, shamans.  

     

    EDIT:   I wanted to add this, I posted something similar in the Shaman forums discussion:

     

    Of course we are just speculating and giving our two cents, or our wishes.  Pantheon is allegedly moving away from themepark solo play land, everyone can do everything, and more towards positively reinforcing group synergy. 

    So in order to make group synergy a thing, the classes must compliment each other in such a way that the sum of the group is more powerful than the sum of each part.  So, if we take the holy trinity of Heal, Tank and Damage as our axes of capability, along that 3 dimensional space we can image a set of classes that are considered 'pure'  - aka purely DPS, pure Tank or pure Healer - we would expect that these three classes are pretty poor at performing the other two roles accordingly.  A hybrid type class would therefore by definition be located somewhat down the line on two of the axes.  Healer/Tank or Healer/Dps or Tank/Dps.  And again each of these would perform that third role poorly.   In this case we would expect these 2dimensional hybrids to do those two things well, but not as good as the pure classes.  Furthermore, we can imagine a 3 dimensional hybrid - one that can perform all roles.  Each of these roles however should be even poorer as compared to the 2 dimensional hybrids, and of course then relatively even more poor compared to the pure classes.

    It really can't be any other way, or else you have a group dynamic that is not necessarily synergistic.   If the 3 dimensional hybrid can perform so well that you can step into a dungeon and be successful with a group of all 3 dimensional hybrids, well then you have no synergy at all.  The only acceptable outcome in this case would be that sure, you can do some content, but you're going to be slower than a min-max setup of mostly pure classes with a few support hybrids brought in for buff completeness.

    Looking around at the Shaman and Druid forums, it appears that some people want them to tank, some want them to heal, some want them to dps.   If all of that were true, then that would make them 3 dimensional hybrids, and by definition, poor performers compared to the 'pure' classes and 2 dimensional hybrids.

    Realize please of course this is all conceptual.  We don't know for sure along which of these axes the classes will land.  Perhaps there will be no true pure classes.  Hopefully none of them are in the exact same spots on those axes , perhaps have similar ratios - for instance two classes could be Healer/Dps 2 dimensional type hybrids, but I would hope that one would be better at one of those roles, but worse than the other, and vice versa.  I think that it wouldn't be as fun of a game to play if it wasn't the case.  Part of the immersion and experience that I loved was knowing that class A was a beast compared to other classes in one role. 

    So group composition, in my perfect world, would probably be 1 of each of the pure classes, then the rest of the spots get filled with situational hybrids, either 2 or 3 dimensional.  The trick then beyond deciding which archtypes to bring, is to balance utility among the classes to fill those spots.

    If both Cleric and Shaman are defined as Healer + Support, then they are both 2 D hybrids, and I would expect one of the two to be better at one of those roles, and worse at the other, and vice versa.  Perhaps each of their 'support' roles are actually on different secondary axes - for example the Shaman is Healer and DPS, while the Cleric is Healer and Tank/add management.  So the comparison is invalid. 

    I would prefer the Cleric be Pure healer, though, and hope that one of the classes fills that role.  That's where I will be playing.  If that ends up being the Druid, then so be it - that's where I will want to be.  I can't see druid fans being happy with that, though.


    This post was edited by Wall at November 14, 2017 9:02 AM PST
    • 33 posts
    November 19, 2017 9:47 PM PST

    I think that the best way to balance to druids is to create a chart that has all classes, all types of abilities, and then ranks each ability by class.  Each class should have at least one "Best at" in a category.  A few ideas:

    * Druids and rangers should be the only ones that can charm animals.  Druids can do it the best. 

    * Druids should be the best at lulling multiple creatures in outdoor areas.  Most raids should not be able to complete a zone without a druid to lull.  

    • 73 posts
    November 20, 2017 5:23 PM PST
    The min/ mixers and elitists in EQ did not want druids in their groups, yes. The good news is there are a lot of people that aren't min/ maxers and just want to have fun while grouping not caring if they have "the best" group set up. I am in this camp. I play these games to relax and competition and burning through content is not my style.

    Mine you, shortly after I started EQ I was more competitive..... having one of the top wizards on the server. Those days are long gone. I would much rather hang out and explore and adventure with good people...regardless of what class they play.

    I remember seeing groups waiting 30 minutes plus to get their perfect set up of tank, cleric , chanter, rogue, monk etc together. I would be next to them with the group rejects, necros , druids, rangers and other undesirables.....ranking in the experience and having a great time. I really hope pantheon isn't flooded with min/maxer elitists that wont take certain classes for their groups. But I am confident that even if they show up in full force, there will be others like me that will get together and make things happen with the undesirables.
    • 13 posts
    November 22, 2017 9:43 AM PST

    Maybe druids didn't fit in for end-game EQ, but don't forget in Pantheon, the main focus will be smaller groups, if they were to be jack of all trades, they would definitely be wanted. Smaller groups make jack of all trades so much more valueable, it will give room to add more specialized classes to the party among other things.

     

    Regarding the comment about groups wanting only certain classes, I strongly believe Pantheon will have a higher effect/efficiency with skilled players rather than specific classes. I remember in EQ, I stripped my Enchanter to gear my Monk. My Enchanter was LFG, I was invited to a party, but they realized afterwards that my gear was worth about 10% of everyone else's gear. They were skeptical, but one of them ended up saying that was the best Enchanter I ever partied with, it made my day!


    This post was edited by Killua at November 22, 2017 10:29 AM PST
    • 4 posts
    November 23, 2017 1:05 AM PST

    It will be interesting to find out what this class can and cannot do.  At this stage its my first pick.  

     

    To me druids are shape shifters,  natural magic, the abilty to talk to animals and trees.  They excel outdoors, and at nighttime.  And there powers peak on the full moon. They can clear fog, or produce  poisonous mists.  The darker parts of there magic make animal/human  sacrifices to there deity.  They can see through the eyes of onther animals,  birds,  wolfs and felines.