Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Pantheon two and a half years into development

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    • 184 posts
    March 19, 2017 9:43 AM PDT

    Apart from Nanfoodle who is always posting with me in various Pantheon forums, half of the names who were respectfully and logically asking questions on progress are also on the frontline supporting this game anytime threads pop up on sites. Not just a comment, paragraphs (when needed), with detailed responses to show people this game really is different. Those pointing fingers, calling us "negative;" I don't notice any of your names from any forums or detailed discussion. You spring up like T cells trying to fight a virus and call yourself loyal followers/white knights yet offer nothing constructive to this "ordeal" that came to be (you are the negativity). Those of us asking the questions are the core that care most.

    - no one is confused about development time

    - no one is confused about development cost

    - no one is confused about needing to release a full, immersive game

    - no one is confused about the progress that was made in 2 years after the failed kickstarter

    Rather

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    - despite money issues, it's been pointed out (from scrapping the game years ago after the kickstarter and from the recent comment from devs), the team has no issue starting something over during development to fine tune things and take "as long as needed" to create the game, which is supposed to be Q1/Q2 alpha hopeful

     

    The issues are relevant, and despite being a development forum, answers aren't given (it took days of our comments being ignored on threads where devs addressed other comments, until new threads/comments from people with little patiene left took shape as a result). Speaking only for myself, I've done everything possible to respectfully provide constructive insights for development, but there is a recurring misunderstanding in the questions raised and a clear dichotomy that is just too frustrating to be worth caring about anymore. It looks like the answer to us is to wait it out and hope for the best with the few updates given, while keeping fingers crossed for a wild angel investor to appear. Not much else we can do in the dev forums or other sites to push the game or convert naysayers, for all we have is continual wishful thinking and postulation to combat them (when people expected some sort of clear progress based off of the momentum claimed in December/February. I'm just trying to fit a square into a circle at this point, so I will leave it at this. Thank you for taking the time trying to make this game happen. I'll be hoping for the best.

     


    This post was edited by Zuljan at March 19, 2017 10:27 AM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:27 AM PDT

    Yes waiting is hard,  been here since Feb 2014 ..that doesn't mean I am sitting here complacently waiting.    I read up on what I can,  rewatch the last live stream with COHH sometimes,  read the lore, read the FAQ.     Sometimes I detect that people don't get game development, that its time consuming and doesn't always have that "Wow factor"  that keeps the waiting audience entertained or amused.

        That's not how it works.    Lots of boring stuff happens behind the scenes in order to construct the game and game zones from scratch to where they are actually playable and in working order,  in-house testers test before we do...in-house testers are Staff.   

    I like that Zippyzee is trying to keep us up with what he deems "tellable".     Hurry up and wait has ALWAYS been a part of game development.   I've been in on testing many, many times.    No you don't get to keep your character during pre-alpha, alpha, sometimes even beta,  there are wipes..etc.    Again this is a small Dev team as opposed to the large ones that Blizzard or EA would have working for them.   This game development thrives on donations from the Pantheon community to keep it headed toward release.     Now that its getting closer to PRE-ALPHA..the VIPS will be getting in to bug find, break things,  do reports back to the Devs.      The fun part isn't here yet...the Devs have said that the whole testing process will take at least a year.  That means all of us need to take this seriously...when requested to test an area, a feature etc.   Part of the success of this game relies on YOU.     Do your best once your turn to test comes.     Make Pantheon the best it can be straight out of the gate.  :)

    Again for those wanting more info,  keep an eye on Zippyzee's thread, and A LOT of questions can be answered by reading the newly updated FAQ on the main page.    Two and a half years in..most games take at MINIMUM 5 years..that's been my experience and I am not pushing to get the game out sooner,  I want any anomalies, things that don't work to be smoothed out and corrected before launch.   I have the patience to see this through, its pretty much the only game that would hold my interest for longer than a month,  as opposed to what we've been subjected to over the last decade or so.  

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at March 19, 2017 10:33 AM PDT
    • 80 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:38 AM PDT

    Zuljan said:

    Apart from Nanfoodle who is always posting with me in various Pantheon forums, half of the names who were respectfully and logically asking questions on progress are also on the frontline supporting this game anytime threads pop up on sites. Not just a comment, paragraphs (when needed), with detailed responses to show people this game really is different. Those pointing fingers, calling us "negative;" I don't notice any of your names from any forums or detailed discussion. You spring up like T cells trying to fight a virus and call yourself loyal followers/white knights yet offer nothing constructive to this "ordeal" that came to be (you are the negativity). Those of us asking the questions are the core that care most.

    - no one is confused about development time

    - no one is confused about development cost

    - no one is confused about needing to release a full, immersive game

    - no one is confused about the progress that was made in 2 years after the failed kickstarter

    Rather

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    - despite money issues, it's been pointed out (from scrapping the game years ago after the kickstarter and from the recent comment from devs), the team has no issue starting something over during development to fine tune things and take "as long as needed" to create the game, which is supposed to be Q1/Q2 alpha hopeful

     

    The issues are relevant, and despite being a development forum, answers aren't given (it took days of our comments being ignored on threads where devs addressed other comments, until new threads/comments from people with little patiene left took shape as a result). Speaking only for myself, I've done everything possible to respectfully provide constructive insights for development, but there is a recurring misunderstanding in the questions raised and a clear dichotomy that is just too frustrating to be worth caring about anymore. It looks like the answer to us is to wait it out and hope for the best with the few updates given, while keeping fingers crossed for a wild angel investor to appear. Not much else we can do in the dev forums or other sites to push the game or convert naysayers, for all we have is continual wishful thinking and postulation to combat them (when people expected some sort of clear progress based off of the momentum claimed in December/February. I'm just trying to fit a square into a circle at this point, so I will leave it at this. Thank you for taking the time trying to make this game happen. I'll be hoping for the best.

     

     

     

    Well said Zul

    • 3852 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:56 AM PDT

    >Apart from Nanfoodle who is always posting with me in various Pantheon forums, half of the names who were respectfully and logically asking questions on progress are also on the frontline supporting this game anytime threads pop up on sites. Not just a comment, paragraphs (when needed), with detailed responses to show people this game really is different. Those pointing fingers, calling us "negative;" I don't notice any of your names from any forums or detailed discussion. You spring up like T cells trying to fight a virus and call yourself loyal followers/white knights yet offer nothing constructive to this "ordeal" that came to be (you are the negativity). Those of us asking the questions are the core that care most<

    I could respond at great length to much of this but I don't see that as being constructive or calming the waters and I think they badly need calming. I will limit myself to three points.

    1. We all care or we wouldn't be here. We don't all AGREE but that isn't quite the same thing. Sally may see the glass as half full, Fred may see it as half empty and they may argue bitterly over the glass but they both care.

    2. There may be times when attacking other members of the Pantheon fan club (that means all of us) as distinct from simply disagreeing on the never to be forgotten glass, is warrented. If so they are far from common. Emotions have run high and I've seen too many comments that verge on attacks on PEOPLE rather than attacks on IDEAS. From both sides and maybe from myself I am not pointing fingers.

    It doesn't help. It hardens positions, makes the person who feels himself or herself attacked less likely to openly and fairly consider the points raised by the other person, and can turn frends or allies that disagree on one single point into enemies.

    3. I have seen the same points repeated over and over and over. From both sides and probably from myself, it is hard to resist. The main goal of talking here is to point things out to the team that they may not have considered as fully as we want them to, and to let them know how we feel since if even the game's core supporters disagree with them they may take a fresh look at ...the glass.

    They read these posts and if they are so stupid that they can't understand a point unless it is repeated six times we might as well all give up hope and go about our other activities. Before posting something lets every one of us consider a few questions. Has this been said before? Has my opinion on it been clear? If the answers are yes and yes maybe it is time to let the thread die the death and move on to the next critically important topic to debate. Maybe a cup or a mug.


    This post was edited by dorotea at March 19, 2017 10:58 AM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    March 19, 2017 11:05 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    I will admit I am ready to play Pantheon now, even in a Pre-Alpha state. I know my wife and I would kill it even if it is unpolished. That being said, I want VR to take the time they need. Freaking out only makes you look silly when you face the fact. If they build an awesome game, you will play it, even if you have to wait another 2-3 years. Also, VR has never made a promise of a release date I can find. Just we hope to, we would like to. So there is nothing to get mad about.

    We'll be testing not playing once testing starts it will be at least a year.  Bug reports,  testing defined areas given to us by the Devs.    Serious stuff,  nobody will be raiding unless that is something the Devs want tested.   Even so results of our reports may cause some changes and wipes ..before release date.    This isn't a look-see.  :)  I suppose we'll be given a level up tool if we need to test the higher level content,  but am not expecting to see THAT for quite some time.     Anyways up to the Devs when they see fit,  to let the first testers in and what we'll be directed to do.   I assume there will be announced times to test,  a specific area or what have you.   The servers may not be up all the time.   Depends what's needed and when.           Just trying to give a realistic view of what to expect given past experiences.  :)

     

    Cana

    • 3016 posts
    March 19, 2017 11:11 AM PDT

    Oh and we do have world builders..Montreseur has been here from the get-go,  want to know who is on the team...go to the About Us it tells who is who and what they do.http://pantheonmmo.com/about_us/the_team/

    • 3852 posts
    March 19, 2017 11:15 AM PDT

    What CX said is quite accurate from my own experience as well. Once we get to alpha it will resemble playing in some respects and once we get to beta it will resemble playing in many respects so apart from the progress it will demonstrate I can't wait to get to at least alpha. Not to mention the fact that I pledged shortly after they made pre-alpha a LOT harder to get access to so I will be here reading and posting while others actually get to see very preliminary versions of part of the game. Unless I get so impatient that I boost the pledge level just to get into  earlier testing.

    • 279 posts
    March 19, 2017 12:11 PM PDT

    I would imagine building a gameworld  (which I don't know much about) is rather like building a large machine or power plant (which I know quite well).

    The sheer scope of a large project is beyond what anything a regular person has to deal with in their life, so it's quite easy to forget when you turn on your lights how much blood, sweat, and raw man hours go into things.

    And no matter what as a creator(s) of something that scope, someone is always going to want it faster, cheaper, and more accurate. Murphys law happens, **** comes up, deadlines delayed, thats the way of things, its nearly impossible to rush through things just because customers are screaming. There are only 2 ways to do things.

    Right the first time or Again.

    Personally I'd rather have them hit the mark dead center. I am not too worried about streams and reveals and what not. 

    Impatience has been the downfall of the 2nd generation of MMOs.  

    • 9115 posts
    March 19, 2017 5:05 PM PDT

    Zuljan said:

    Apart from Nanfoodle who is always posting with me in various Pantheon forums, half of the names who were respectfully and logically asking questions on progress are also on the frontline supporting this game anytime threads pop up on sites. Not just a comment, paragraphs (when needed), with detailed responses to show people this game really is different. Those pointing fingers, calling us "negative;" I don't notice any of your names from any forums or detailed discussion. You spring up like T cells trying to fight a virus and call yourself loyal followers/white knights yet offer nothing constructive to this "ordeal" that came to be (you are the negativity). Those of us asking the questions are the core that care most.

    - no one is confused about development time

    - no one is confused about development cost

    - no one is confused about needing to release a full, immersive game

    - no one is confused about the progress that was made in 2 years after the failed kickstarter

    Rather

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    - despite money issues, it's been pointed out (from scrapping the game years ago after the kickstarter and from the recent comment from devs), the team has no issue starting something over during development to fine tune things and take "as long as needed" to create the game, which is supposed to be Q1/Q2 alpha hopeful

     

    The issues are relevant, and despite being a development forum, answers aren't given (it took days of our comments being ignored on threads where devs addressed other comments, until new threads/comments from people with little patiene left took shape as a result). Speaking only for myself, I've done everything possible to respectfully provide constructive insights for development, but there is a recurring misunderstanding in the questions raised and a clear dichotomy that is just too frustrating to be worth caring about anymore. It looks like the answer to us is to wait it out and hope for the best with the few updates given, while keeping fingers crossed for a wild angel investor to appear. Not much else we can do in the dev forums or other sites to push the game or convert naysayers, for all we have is continual wishful thinking and postulation to combat them (when people expected some sort of clear progress based off of the momentum claimed in December/February. I'm just trying to fit a square into a circle at this point, so I will leave it at this. Thank you for taking the time trying to make this game happen. I'll be hoping for the best.

     

    Your posts of late have come across as being quite negative and attacking in nature, which is why I haven't responded directly to you, most of those attacks were directed at me.

    I always give the community as much information as I am allowed to, I will do the same here for your "Rather" points in Blue.

    Rather

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    That is correct and we are close to another stream, it has only been 3 months since the last one but since the last stream we have released several updates which I will list below for convenience;

    January Newsletter - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    February Newsletter - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    March Newsletter (just released) - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    Game On - MMORPG interview - http://www.mmorpg.com/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/news/game-on-visionary-realms-talks-pantheon-and-industry-jobs-1000042957

    Class and Race Combo reveal - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations

    Huge FAQ Revamp - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/

    Won "The Most Wanted MMO Of 2017" over at MMORPG.com - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4992/we-did-it-we-won

    Visionary Realms added 5 new team members: Tim, Robert, Aaron, Jacob and Nick - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/1/news-and-announcements

    Official Wiki - https://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/Pantheon:_Rise_of_the_Fallen_Wiki

    Featured on several games media sites, MassivelyOP, MMORPG.com, The Unpaid Gamers

    Countless screenshots of actual in-game areas every Thursday

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    Here are two direct quotes from the Feb newsletter, both of which do not suggest the next stream is "finished" or "ready" just that it is coming;

    "The response to both of the streams has been overwhelmingly positive and encouraging to us as a team. The world of Terminus continues to grow dramatically, and we hope to continue showcasing this trend of quality and progress in the Twitch streams that are soon to come!"

    "As always, thank you for the unwavering support - we look forward to connecting with all of you in the upcoming stream."

    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    We have announced several times now that two new zones and a new class will be revealed in the next stream, we carefully manage the hype for our game and don't reveal or release anything until we are ready and have what we feel is quality enough to release publicly. Once we get into testing you will see marketing and PR ramp up, now is not the time, we rely on professionals in their field on the team to make those decisions.

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    To have more skilled world builders that work to the same high level as the ones we already have would be great but we cannot control what comes knocking on our door, we can only put the word out, search the appropriate platforms, network and work with what we get, World Building is one time-consuming area of development that would be nice to get help with, the others are Art and Programming, both of which we have had interest in or hired for, plus we have filled positions for Website and AI/Design, trying to find very talented people to fill extra positions isn't done by snapping our fingers and willing it to happen, it takes time to find the right people that are a good fit for us and our game and we continue to look fo those people actively while we continue to make measurable progress with the games development.

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    Our finances are not something we discuss in detail publicly, like with any business it is private and we will announce any changes to our financial position when it is necessary. We get a lot of new pledges after our streams, which is why it is so important for us to get the new updates in so we can get another stream out, show off something new and we need to do it properly, not rush it and show off something sub-par just for the sake of a few impatient people as our game is on show and we want to show it off in the best way possible.

    - despite money issues, it's been pointed out (from scrapping the game years ago after the kickstarter and from the recent comment from devs), the team has no issue starting something over during development to fine tune things and take "as long as needed" to create the game, which is supposed to be Q1/Q2 alpha hopeful

    We have not announced any money issues, after the Kickstarter failed we continued on with funding from our official website while getting some angel investor funding and the sale of pledges and subscriptions helped us to where we are today. We continue to seek further investor funding.

    We started over because back then we felt the game needed an overhaul, we will take as long as needed, we have never given a firm ETA on anything because developing a game of this nature is not an easy task and many thing changes, many things can go wrong or push timeframes back and the moment we give a date, even a rough estimate, it gets held against us like Q1-Q2 is now. We are working away as hard as humanly possible, pre-alpha testing will be released when it is ready, has everything we need in-game to be tested and the game is able to support hundreds of people, the next stream will be announced when we have everything that we need to show off in the game and ready for public, media and investor viewing, and as with any other updates, we will release it shortly after it is ready to get it out to the community as fast as humanly possible.

    I hope these helped clear up any confusion or misunderstandings.

    • 17 posts
    March 19, 2017 6:01 PM PDT

    It’s not about players being negative, it’s about unrealistic expectations and not really understanding the process. You mentioned a few things related to twitch streams and more frequent community updates. Is there a belief that this is free and costs nothing, especially when the team size is only 15? How much time, effort, and money do you think is involved in doing this? At some tech companies, the average developer makes about 2 to 3 dollars a minute. Five people spending eight hours to plan, produce, and prepare a game demo would cost $7200 in that scenario. If the devs stream for 2 hours, with a group size of 5, just playing the game would cost the company $1800 dollars.

    It likely requires some work from the entire team to produce a game demo. This may include custom asset, design work, programming, time from producers, doing the stream, etc. If we’re going to properly manage our own expectations, it’s going to be important for us to avoid trying to imagine that we understand everything going on behind the curtain well enough to draw meaningful conclusions. All we can really do is speculate and that’s pretty pointless.

    It’s easy to fall into this trap, however, I think we need to be very careful about being so wise in our own eyes that we think our opinions, on how a game studio should run, carry more weight than the seasoned development team that’s on the ground doing the work with decades of experience. We’re not involved in the day to day operations of the studio, they have more experience than we do, and many of them have shipped an MMO before. How many MMOs have we shipped? I'm only suggesting that maybe a little trust and benefit of the doubt should go along with our investment.

    The claim is that players are frustrated so let’s consider the source of frustration, which is unment expectations. However, what if these expectations are unrealistic or grounded in a lack of understanding? Some players (not all of them) don’t know what they don’t know and tend to draw conclusions based on assumptions where they don’t have all the facts. They then proceed to apply pressure to the development team, who can never properly defend themselves due to legal, NDA, and other assorted reasons.

    If they’re complaining, they’re confused
    - no one is confused about development time
    - no one is confused about development cost
    - no one is confused about needing to release a full, immersive game
    - no one is confused about the progress that was made in 2 years after the failed kickstarter

    We can't claim we aren't confused and then proceed to complain about things that demonstrate that we are confused.  I believe most of the people complaining are confused but don't have enough understanding of the games industry to know they're confused.  I’m going to use a very extreme example because extreme examples provide good contrast when trying to make a point. I was a Marine Scout/Sniper and then an Army Ranger, involved in combat operations in different theatres all over the world. Now imagine you’re in some remote outpost with a small scout/recon team and you start taking enemy fire. No air support is available, the nearest evac is 45 minutes out, you’re low on ammo and what appeared to be a minor skirmish turns into an all-out assault by 200 enemy fighters. Given the situation, your tiny 6-man recon/scout team must find some way to hold off 200 enemy fighters for 45 minutes until help arrives. Now imagine the reaction you might have if a World of Warcraft player were to claim he understand the stress of a real-life combat situation because of a few close calls in Arena PvP. I use this example to clearly and concisely illustrate the concept of “you don’t know what you don’t know”, in a way that everyone can relate to. The WoW player isn’t stupid, he just doesn’t know that he has no clue what real combat is like.

    The other purpose of this example is to draw a mental image of the enormous gap between what the WoW player understands and what the WoW player THINKS he understands. If we’re not careful, we (the players) can end up looking just like the WoW player when we complain about things we think we understand but through the content of our complaints, demonstrate that we don’t know what we're talking about.  If we are all experienced enough to understand this problem space well enough to tell VR what their priorities should be and how they should run their business, then we may as well go build an MMO ourselves.  I recommend another option!  We demonstrate that making a game is hard, making a multi-player game is monumental, and making an MMO is impossible.  It can litterally be one of the the most complex software application on the planet to build, especially for a team of 15.  Demonstrating that we understand this means a lack of feedback, going dark for a while, or some promised update that doesn't arrive isn't automatically associated with some kind of nefarious intent.  Has anyone ever considered that thye might just be really busy and that while updating us is a priority, it's not the ONLY priority.  Small team guys, lets give them a break.  If there's something legitimate to complain about fine, but so far that has not been the case.

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    Ok, do we know why this didn’t happen? Until we know the reason, the source of frustration is based on an assumption.  Facts are important.  For example, if someone promises to show up to your house for dinner and then stands you up, is the appropriate response to assume the worst and send a text message, complaining that they stood you up? If that were the chosen response, you might feel foolish when you find out they were involved in a car accident, on the way to your house, and rushed to the hospital. Conclusions require facts based on logic.

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    But it didn’t SAY it was done, it just seemed that way to you. Right? With respect, and I do mean that, we can’t make up our own interpretation of something and then use that as justification to aim frustration at the development team.  If something isn't clear then ask for clarification.  Also, what does “done” even mean in this context?  Is the assumption that “done” means they start streaming tomorrow?  Is that stated or is this another interpretation?  It seems like more clarification is required here, before we can draw any conclusions.


    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    What should Amazon’s marketing plan be? What about Microsoft. How should they market Windows? That question is unanswerable from the outside, looking in. If we can’t answer the question for Microsoft or Amazon, what vast ocean of knowledge can we draw from that makes us believe we know more about how VR should be operating their business than they do? Speculating on business practices where we have limited visibility into day to day operations isn’t a wise use of our time. I think a better use of our time is focusing our efforts on game play features where player opinions are productive and meaningful.

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    Again, how can we possibly know this to be true? The assumption being that VR knows they need world builders but are determined not to hire them. Even if VR were to come right out and proclaim, WE NEED WORLD BUILDERS! That statement identifies a need but only through interpretation can we deduce that this statement also implies a priority. While they may need world builders, maybe the other roles are a higher priority.  We can't draw sweeping conclusions about hiring practices from a single statement about builders, if a statement was even made.  What if they have recs open for multiple positions but haven’t found the right fit for a world builder yet.  We have very limited visibility into day to day operations so we should be careful about allowing frustration to drive the way we draw conclusions when we don't have all the information.

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    You mean no advances that have been made public? Again, we’re assuming we know everything about the day to day operations inside VR. For all we know they may be talking to multiple investors. Negotiations with investors are usually never made public until they've concluded. One reason for this practice is that there is potential that public exposure could disrupt the process. There are lots of reasons to keep these negotiations private. In terms of the community, why do we assume they SHOULD be approaching the community but are choosing not to because they're what?  Lazy?  I don't understand what information we have that says we know how they should be raising money for their game.  Does anyone whose complaining about this understand how money is typically raised for a game?  Maybe there’s a good reason they aren’t taking this approach.  What makes us think we know what they should or shouldn’t be doing here?

    I'm a bit uncertain why anyone would invest in a game where they believe the development team is so clueless that they require the advice of people, who have never shipped a game before, to tell them how to manage the business of running a game studio.  Our ability to add value, as players, comes from our creativity and inspiration, drawn from playing other games, not making games, or managing a games studio.  As players, we can leverage those years of playing games to try and help inspire the developers to create something meaningful and great so that we have an amazing game play experience that we can all enjoy for years to come. 

    When something unexpected happens, we can choose to look at it in a negative light that reflects poorly on the development team or we can give them the benefit of the doubt.  The original claim was that there was no confusion.  Really understanding the monumental challenge the team faces would be demonstrated through empathy, which means giving team members the benefit of the doubt instead of negative assumptions.  If we have no empathy or can't give people the benefit of the doubt, then we demonstrate we don't really understand the nature of the challenge.

     

     


    This post was edited by ScoutSniper at March 19, 2017 6:20 PM PDT
    • 11 posts
    March 19, 2017 6:17 PM PDT

    Thank you Kilsin for those detailed points. I would still rather wait 2-3 more years for this game to be good, than have yet another half ass game release. Look at the games out there now... Name one game that rivals EQ1 or WoW in popularity and longevity. This team has a core that has the potential to truly release the "next big thing" and have it last for 10+ years. Give them the time they need and the feedback they require. But please remember one thing that I learned long ago... A complaint is fine, but complaining just to complain makes you a whiner. Don't be a whiner. Help them create the game we all want to play. Offer solutions, feedback, and opinions. And most importantly, watch how you word it. The way you are pushing for may simply not be possible reguardless of how hard you are pushing it. It may be beyond the Devs talents or the technology may not be compatible. This game is going to be built on player reputations and the info will be shared with the whole community. Those that are bitching and moning already are certinally being noted. This isn't one of those countless solo games that have endgame raiding content. Once you are flagged by the community as a "bad egg", the process to simply reroll under a new name will not be an easy task.

    Kilsin, a request...

    I actually hope that they implement the "blocked character = blocked account" idea. Then when you come across a whiner who enjoys harrassing and trolling people, they will be forced to buy a new account to work their way back into the community. Verbal abuse is one of the most over looked things in the MMO's today. A raid leader cussing out a raid, a group member in a pug cussing out a new player that doesn't live up to their standards, even a troll roling over someone because they don't have the "correct" gear on them is a common theme. I've been doing end game raiding for 18 years in MMO's. I've never used a build / rotation to it's letter because it doesn't fit my game play. I doubt I ever will. But I still end up being one of the core raiders because I learn my role/class/supporting classes so I can work with them and make all of us look like Gods... Let VR be the Gods of this game. Once they hand it over to us, I have no doubt we will enjoy every frustrating moment and fail as much (if not more) than the sucesses...

    • 175 posts
    March 19, 2017 6:24 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

     

    Rather

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    That is correct and we are close to another stream, it has only been 3 months since the last one but since the last stream we have released several updates which I will list below for convenience;

    January Newsletter - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    February Newsletter - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    March Newsletter (just released) - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/latest_news/

    Game On - MMORPG interview - http://www.mmorpg.com/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/news/game-on-visionary-realms-talks-pantheon-and-industry-jobs-1000042957

    Class and Race Combo reveal - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations

    Huge FAQ Revamp - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/

    Won "The Most Wanted MMO Of 2017" over at MMORPG.com - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4992/we-did-it-we-won

    Visionary Realms added 5 new team members: Tim, Robert, Aaron, Jacob and Nick - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/1/news-and-announcements

    Official Wiki - https://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/Pantheon:_Rise_of_the_Fallen_Wiki

    Featured on several games media sites, MassivelyOP, MMORPG.com, The Unpaid Gamers

    Countless screenshots of actual in-game areas every Thursday

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    Here are two direct quotes from the Feb newsletter, both of which do not suggest the next stream is "finished" or "ready" just that it is coming;

    "The response to both of the streams has been overwhelmingly positive and encouraging to us as a team. The world of Terminus continues to grow dramatically, and we hope to continue showcasing this trend of quality and progress in the Twitch streams that are soon to come!"

    "As always, thank you for the unwavering support - we look forward to connecting with all of you in the upcoming stream."

    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    We have announced several times now that two new zones and a new class will be revealed in the next stream, we carefully manage the hype for our game and don't reveal or release anything until we are ready and have what we feel is quality enough to release publicly. Once we get into testing you will see marketing and PR ramp up, now is not the time, we rely on professionals in their field on the team to make those decisions.

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    To have more skilled world builders that work to the same high level as the ones we already have would be great but we cannot control what comes knocking on our door, we can only put the word out, search the appropriate platforms, network and work with what we get, World Building is one time-consuming area of development that would be nice to get help with, the others are Art and Programming, both of which we have had interest in or hired for, plus we have filled positions for Website and AI/Design, trying to find very talented people to fill extra positions isn't done by snapping our fingers and willing it to happen, it takes time to find the right people that are a good fit for us and our game and we continue to look fo those people actively while we continue to make measurable progress with the games development.

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    Our finances are not something we discuss in detail publicly, like with any business it is private and we will announce any changes to our financial position when it is necessary. We get a lot of new pledges after our streams, which is why it is so important for us to get the new updates in so we can get another stream out, show off something new and we need to do it properly, not rush it and show off something sub-par just for the sake of a few impatient people as our game is on show and we want to show it off in the best way possible.

    - despite money issues, it's been pointed out (from scrapping the game years ago after the kickstarter and from the recent comment from devs), the team has no issue starting something over during development to fine tune things and take "as long as needed" to create the game, which is supposed to be Q1/Q2 alpha hopeful

    We have not announced any money issues, after the Kickstarter failed we continued on with funding from our official website while getting some angel investor funding and the sale of pledges and subscriptions helped us to where we are today. We continue to seek further investor funding.

    We started over because back then we felt the game needed an overhaul, we will take as long as needed, we have never given a firm ETA on anything because developing a game of this nature is not an easy task and many thing changes, many things can go wrong or push timeframes back and the moment we give a date, even a rough estimate, it gets held against us like Q1-Q2 is now. We are working away as hard as humanly possible, pre-alpha testing will be released when it is ready, has everything we need in-game to be tested and the game is able to support hundreds of people, the next stream will be announced when we have everything that we need to show off in the game and ready for public, media and investor viewing, and as with any other updates, we will release it shortly after it is ready to get it out to the community as fast as humanly possible.

    I hope these helped clear up any confusion or misunderstandings.

    Unfortunate as the context of this post may be, I really enjoyed reading this information. I know it's available around and a lot of it has already been said, but I really appreciated the collection and context of each of these answers. Reminds me of those "monthly round-up" threads. Would love to see this info alone stickied (not the rest of the thread), though that may not be what you want.

    Either way, kudos on a very patient, great answer!

    • 2886 posts
    March 19, 2017 6:49 PM PDT

    And thus the importance of gathering information before making assumptions.

    • 3016 posts
    March 19, 2017 7:57 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    And thus the importance of gathering information before making assumptions.

     

    Knowledge, empathy and understanding.  I like it :)

    • 839 posts
    March 19, 2017 8:49 PM PDT

    @ScoutSniper

    Well said mate, approaching "issues" like this would normally be tackled by the use of common sense, thank you for taking the time to explain it so clearly and simply for those who needed it.

    In saying that and to be fair, without some basic knowledge of business from the inside some of these things may not be easily understood without some direction. I hope people have a good read of your response to understand these things a bit more.

    @CanadinaXegony

    Empathy.. where has that gone recently in this world huh?  :(


    This post was edited by Hokanu at March 19, 2017 8:55 PM PDT
    • 671 posts
    March 19, 2017 9:14 PM PDT

    I have been here since the forums opened.

    Visionary Realms is more along in Pantheon's pre-alpha development, than most tryhard games are, upon their release. In the wild, I really do not hear anyone dismissing VRi, or Pantheon's time to release. It is universally known it will most likely be an early 2019 release. More people are hoping it takes longer to develop, than shorter. I see zero pressure on the development team.

    A good RPG platform takes 4 ~ 5 years to develop. Pantheon is not a rush job.

     

    • 17 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:26 PM PDT

    Hieromonk said:

    I have been here since the forums opened.

    Visionary Realms is more along in Pantheon's pre-alpha development, than most tryhard games are, upon their release. In the wild, I really do not hear anyone dismissing VRi, or Pantheon's time to release. It is universally known it will most likely be an early 2019 release. More people are hoping it takes longer to develop, than shorter. I see zero pressure on the development team.

    A good RPG platform takes 4 ~ 5 years to develop. Pantheon is not a rush job.

     

     

    I'm glad they're sticking to their guns, however, they've been around the block a few times so this is probably not new.  Announcing a game this early is certainly a new-ish trend.  Before contributing to the game, I took a hard look at the team, the progress they've made and felt really confident that something great would come out of this.  Then I wondered how the heck it took me so long to hear about the game!  I set my own expectations for something in the range of a 2019 - 2020 release as well, but that's a SWAG on my part.  You can be the best team in the world, have shipped 1000 MMOs, do all the right things, wield the sword of 1000 truths, shoot lighttning bolts from your ass and then, for whatever reason, something happens where things just don't go your way.  I think the 7 pinnacles of MMO development are: Time, Money, Resources, Skill, Passion, Experience, and Luck.  By luck I mean things like the market shifts or you ship your MMO and the next day Kataku announces the stealth release of World of Warcraft 2.  I really hate things that require luck!

    EDIT: I'm not sure Pantheon fans will care much about a WoW 2 so that's one thing off the list ;)


    This post was edited by ScoutSniper at March 19, 2017 10:32 PM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:49 PM PDT

    ScoutSniper said:

    It’s not about players being negative, it’s about unrealistic expectations and not really understanding the process. You mentioned a few things related to twitch streams and more frequent community updates. Is there a belief that this is free and costs nothing, especially when the team size is only 15? How much time, effort, and money do you think is involved in doing this? At some tech companies, the average developer makes about 2 to 3 dollars a minute. Five people spending eight hours to plan, produce, and prepare a game demo would cost $7200 in that scenario. If the devs stream for 2 hours, with a group size of 5, just playing the game would cost the company $1800 dollars.

    It likely requires some work from the entire team to produce a game demo. This may include custom asset, design work, programming, time from producers, doing the stream, etc. If we’re going to properly manage our own expectations, it’s going to be important for us to avoid trying to imagine that we understand everything going on behind the curtain well enough to draw meaningful conclusions. All we can really do is speculate and that’s pretty pointless.

    It’s easy to fall into this trap, however, I think we need to be very careful about being so wise in our own eyes that we think our opinions, on how a game studio should run, carry more weight than the seasoned development team that’s on the ground doing the work with decades of experience. We’re not involved in the day to day operations of the studio, they have more experience than we do, and many of them have shipped an MMO before. How many MMOs have we shipped? I'm only suggesting that maybe a little trust and benefit of the doubt should go along with our investment.

    The claim is that players are frustrated so let’s consider the source of frustration, which is unment expectations. However, what if these expectations are unrealistic or grounded in a lack of understanding? Some players (not all of them) don’t know what they don’t know and tend to draw conclusions based on assumptions where they don’t have all the facts. They then proceed to apply pressure to the development team, who can never properly defend themselves due to legal, NDA, and other assorted reasons.

    If they’re complaining, they’re confused
    - no one is confused about development time
    - no one is confused about development cost
    - no one is confused about needing to release a full, immersive game
    - no one is confused about the progress that was made in 2 years after the failed kickstarter

    We can't claim we aren't confused and then proceed to complain about things that demonstrate that we are confused.  I believe most of the people complaining are confused but don't have enough understanding of the games industry to know they're confused.  I’m going to use a very extreme example because extreme examples provide good contrast when trying to make a point. I was a Marine Scout/Sniper and then an Army Ranger, involved in combat operations in different theatres all over the world. Now imagine you’re in some remote outpost with a small scout/recon team and you start taking enemy fire. No air support is available, the nearest evac is 45 minutes out, you’re low on ammo and what appeared to be a minor skirmish turns into an all-out assault by 200 enemy fighters. Given the situation, your tiny 6-man recon/scout team must find some way to hold off 200 enemy fighters for 45 minutes until help arrives. Now imagine the reaction you might have if a World of Warcraft player were to claim he understand the stress of a real-life combat situation because of a few close calls in Arena PvP. I use this example to clearly and concisely illustrate the concept of “you don’t know what you don’t know”, in a way that everyone can relate to. The WoW player isn’t stupid, he just doesn’t know that he has no clue what real combat is like.

    The other purpose of this example is to draw a mental image of the enormous gap between what the WoW player understands and what the WoW player THINKS he understands. If we’re not careful, we (the players) can end up looking just like the WoW player when we complain about things we think we understand but through the content of our complaints, demonstrate that we don’t know what we're talking about.  If we are all experienced enough to understand this problem space well enough to tell VR what their priorities should be and how they should run their business, then we may as well go build an MMO ourselves.  I recommend another option!  We demonstrate that making a game is hard, making a multi-player game is monumental, and making an MMO is impossible.  It can litterally be one of the the most complex software application on the planet to build, especially for a team of 15.  Demonstrating that we understand this means a lack of feedback, going dark for a while, or some promised update that doesn't arrive isn't automatically associated with some kind of nefarious intent.  Has anyone ever considered that thye might just be really busy and that while updating us is a priority, it's not the ONLY priority.  Small team guys, lets give them a break.  If there's something legitimate to complain about fine, but so far that has not been the case.

    - the previous stream promised more frequent updates/streams

    Ok, do we know why this didn’t happen? Until we know the reason, the source of frustration is based on an assumption.  Facts are important.  For example, if someone promises to show up to your house for dinner and then stands you up, is the appropriate response to assume the worst and send a text message, complaining that they stood you up? If that were the chosen response, you might feel foolish when you find out they were involved in a car accident, on the way to your house, and rushed to the hospital. Conclusions require facts based on logic.

    - Feb newsletter noted the new stream, which made it seem like it was done and that progress was moving along quicker than expected

    But it didn’t SAY it was done, it just seemed that way to you. Right? With respect, and I do mean that, we can’t make up our own interpretation of something and then use that as justification to aim frustration at the development team.  If something isn't clear then ask for clarification.  Also, what does “done” even mean in this context?  Is the assumption that “done” means they start streaming tomorrow?  Is that stated or is this another interpretation?  It seems like more clarification is required here, before we can draw any conclusions.


    - there has been no attempt to market new, inspirational models/zones/animations/mechanics/class abilities/anything (other than the same couple zones and class models from the last stream) to encourage people to back and give us developmental input amongst ourselves and those outside of the community

    What should Amazon’s marketing plan be? What about Microsoft. How should they market Windows? That question is unanswerable from the outside, looking in. If we can’t answer the question for Microsoft or Amazon, what vast ocean of knowledge can we draw from that makes us believe we know more about how VR should be operating their business than they do? Speculating on business practices where we have limited visibility into day to day operations isn’t a wise use of our time. I think a better use of our time is focusing our efforts on game play features where player opinions are productive and meaningful.

    - world builders are needed, but everything except world builders are being hired

    Again, how can we possibly know this to be true? The assumption being that VR knows they need world builders but are determined not to hire them. Even if VR were to come right out and proclaim, WE NEED WORLD BUILDERS! That statement identifies a need but only through interpretation can we deduce that this statement also implies a priority. While they may need world builders, maybe the other roles are a higher priority.  We can't draw sweeping conclusions about hiring practices from a single statement about builders, if a statement was even made.  What if they have recs open for multiple positions but haven’t found the right fit for a world builder yet.  We have very limited visibility into day to day operations so we should be careful about allowing frustration to drive the way we draw conclusions when we don't have all the information.

    - the need for additional funding has been recognized, but again, no advances are made to inspire the community to pledge, increase existing pledge, or for a more formal investor to feel the time is right to move in

    You mean no advances that have been made public? Again, we’re assuming we know everything about the day to day operations inside VR. For all we know they may be talking to multiple investors. Negotiations with investors are usually never made public until they've concluded. One reason for this practice is that there is potential that public exposure could disrupt the process. There are lots of reasons to keep these negotiations private. In terms of the community, why do we assume they SHOULD be approaching the community but are choosing not to because they're what?  Lazy?  I don't understand what information we have that says we know how they should be raising money for their game.  Does anyone whose complaining about this understand how money is typically raised for a game?  Maybe there’s a good reason they aren’t taking this approach.  What makes us think we know what they should or shouldn’t be doing here?

    I'm a bit uncertain why anyone would invest in a game where they believe the development team is so clueless that they require the advice of people, who have never shipped a game before, to tell them how to manage the business of running a game studio.  Our ability to add value, as players, comes from our creativity and inspiration, drawn from playing other games, not making games, or managing a games studio.  As players, we can leverage those years of playing games to try and help inspire the developers to create something meaningful and great so that we have an amazing game play experience that we can all enjoy for years to come. 

    When something unexpected happens, we can choose to look at it in a negative light that reflects poorly on the development team or we can give them the benefit of the doubt.  The original claim was that there was no confusion.  Really understanding the monumental challenge the team faces would be demonstrated through empathy, which means giving team members the benefit of the doubt instead of negative assumptions.  If we have no empathy or can't give people the benefit of the doubt, then we demonstrate we don't really understand the nature of the challenge.

     

     



    Another well thought out and reasonable post full of truths, thank you :)

    • 9115 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:53 PM PDT

    Smallchange said:

    Thank you Kilsin for those detailed points. I would still rather wait 2-3 more years for this game to be good, than have yet another half ass game release. Look at the games out there now... Name one game that rivals EQ1 or WoW in popularity and longevity. This team has a core that has the potential to truly release the "next big thing" and have it last for 10+ years. Give them the time they need and the feedback they require. But please remember one thing that I learned long ago... A complaint is fine, but complaining just to complain makes you a whiner. Don't be a whiner. Help them create the game we all want to play. Offer solutions, feedback, and opinions. And most importantly, watch how you word it. The way you are pushing for may simply not be possible reguardless of how hard you are pushing it. It may be beyond the Devs talents or the technology may not be compatible. This game is going to be built on player reputations and the info will be shared with the whole community. Those that are bitching and moning already are certinally being noted. This isn't one of those countless solo games that have endgame raiding content. Once you are flagged by the community as a "bad egg", the process to simply reroll under a new name will not be an easy task.

    Kilsin, a request...

    I actually hope that they implement the "blocked character = blocked account" idea. Then when you come across a whiner who enjoys harrassing and trolling people, they will be forced to buy a new account to work their way back into the community. Verbal abuse is one of the most over looked things in the MMO's today. A raid leader cussing out a raid, a group member in a pug cussing out a new player that doesn't live up to their standards, even a troll roling over someone because they don't have the "correct" gear on them is a common theme. I've been doing end game raiding for 18 years in MMO's. I've never used a build / rotation to it's letter because it doesn't fit my game play. I doubt I ever will. But I still end up being one of the core raiders because I learn my role/class/supporting classes so I can work with them and make all of us look like Gods... Let VR be the Gods of this game. Once they hand it over to us, I have no doubt we will enjoy every frustrating moment and fail as much (if not more) than the sucesses...

    You're very welcome my friend, we won't be rushing anything but we work hard, very hard and set very high standards for our work, plus we set ourselves realistic internal goals, milestones and deadlines so although we (and almost every other company in the world) rarely makes a public ETA or set date as it will always be turned around and used against us in a negative manner, we will release that information when we feel it is close to being achievable with too many things change that timeframe.

    As for the block feature, that is definitely something we can discuss more in testing and get feedback on. 

    • 9115 posts
    March 19, 2017 10:56 PM PDT

    Archaen said:

    Kilsin said:

    -Snip-

    Unfortunate as the context of this post may be, I really enjoyed reading this information. I know it's available around and a lot of it has already been said, but I really appreciated the collection and context of each of these answers. Reminds me of those "monthly round-up" threads. Would love to see this info alone stickied (not the rest of the thread), though that may not be what you want.

    Either way, kudos on a very patient, great answer!

    Nick usually does a great monthly roundup at the start of every month but if for some reason he doesn't, I would be happy to pull some key points/highlights from the month and post them. These kinds of things will be much easier to track on our new forums too, with a dev tracker and much better all round setup ith much better usability. 

    Thank you my friend :)


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at March 19, 2017 10:56 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    March 19, 2017 11:47 PM PDT

    As someone who has been using the IPBoard forum platform, I can say without a doubt that we will all have a more fulfilling forum experience ahead of us.  This is the best platform available on the market in my opinion and the fact that VR chose it over others speaks volumes to me.  This will be a great way for them to reinforce their "get it right" mentality with Pantheon because last I checked, they were going to be using VBulletin, and that wasn't even that long ago!  Switching up the plan like that may have cost us a little bit of extra time in the interim but it's something that will be more than worth it in the long run.  I have been speaking with a lot of my friends here in the community who have been around longer than myself, and the more I truly understand the big picture, the more obvious it becomes to me just how important patience and tempered expectations are.  We should only focus on what we can control and right now, that's mostly factors that are completely external to Pantheon.

    Once we get into the testing phase, that will likely change.  I have been trying to share ideas on this forum since I first joined, and while I feel there was some good intention and merit in those ideas, I spent a lot of time on something that wasn't tangible.  Scout Sniper has provided some very valuable insight into the intricate workings of an MMO that many of us have taken for granted ... I for one will be pulling out my notepad and compiling a list of ideas/concepts in there that maybe I can draw upon in the future.  In the meantime, I will be focused on building relationships with people here in the community and only offering input/feedback on something when it's requested. Again, I'm really looking forward to the forum enhancement and I urge everybody to be patient while the details of it are worked out.  We will be entering a new phase of development when the forums are upgraded and it will be a wonderful environment for all this pent up energy we are seeing.  I fully expect a significantly positive shift in our community vibe in the very near future.  If someone is feeling overly anxious at this point, take a break and check back in a month or two ... I know the suspense can be killer, but that's why they call it suspense.  The moment is nigh upon us ... it doesen't matter if you have been here for 3 years or 3 weeks, we all have something very special to look forward to in the near future  --  and that's just the beginning!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 19, 2017 11:49 PM PDT
    • 63 posts
    March 21, 2017 6:10 AM PDT

    ScoutSniper, thank you for the wonderful posts, you definitely know your stuff.

    • 71 posts
    March 21, 2017 6:47 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    I'll try to just boil this down to bare bones. Not directed at anyone specifically. Just some things I’ve observed from my own life and these forums, so they seem applicable to share here:

    1. Expectations are the enemy of happiness. Think about it... setting any kind of expectation doesn’t actually do anything. It may make you feel good while you can dwell in your blissful delusion, but it just opens up the possibility of being disappointed when reality comes knocking at your door. When reality does not end up matching the predicted reality that you created in your head, that’s disappointment and it’s obviously not very pleasant. And the natural reaction is to then get defensive of your mental happy place, so it’s only downhill from there. Being promised something and then having that promise broken is one thing. But I can't think of anything that VR has actually promised. If VR says something vague and then you jump to the nearest conclusion that fits your ideal scenario, that's on you. No one else. People often do this more than they realize. Myself included.

    2. Similarly, another way to guarantee your own unhappiness is trying/pretending to control things that you actually have no control over. People naturally crave control and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But let's be real: Regardless of how much money you donated, unless you're actually writing code, you have exactly zero effect on when the game comes out. In fact, nothing you say or do will make the game release a minute sooner. So if you can't just sit back and enjoy the show, you're just going to drive yourself crazy for literally no reason.

    To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't voice their opinions about what they want. I know VR wants to hear from people and in some cases, it makes a tangible difference. That's awesome. It's just key to remember to keep things in perspective - that maybe your opinion isn't as important as you think it is or maybe there's more to the situation than you are aware of. In fact, there's always more to the situation than you or I or anyone is aware of. It is very difficult, yet very possible, to keep your emotions in check while also being passionate. Finding that fine line is the best place to be.

    Well said Doro - I hope this thread does not end up in the gutter too.

     

    I hope everyone reads this topic and this post.  So very true.

    • 71 posts
    March 21, 2017 7:01 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Smallchange said:

    Thank you Kilsin for those detailed points. I would still rather wait 2-3 more years for this game to be good, than have yet another half ass game release. Look at the games out there now... Name one game that rivals EQ1 or WoW in popularity and longevity. This team has a core that has the potential to truly release the "next big thing" and have it last for 10+ years. Give them the time they need and the feedback they require. But please remember one thing that I learned long ago... A complaint is fine, but complaining just to complain makes you a whiner. Don't be a whiner. Help them create the game we all want to play. Offer solutions, feedback, and opinions. And most importantly, watch how you word it. The way you are pushing for may simply not be possible reguardless of how hard you are pushing it. It may be beyond the Devs talents or the technology may not be compatible. This game is going to be built on player reputations and the info will be shared with the whole community. Those that are bitching and moning already are certinally being noted. This isn't one of those countless solo games that have endgame raiding content. Once you are flagged by the community as a "bad egg", the process to simply reroll under a new name will not be an easy task.

    Kilsin, a request...

    I actually hope that they implement the "blocked character = blocked account" idea. Then when you come across a whiner who enjoys harrassing and trolling people, they will be forced to buy a new account to work their way back into the community. Verbal abuse is one of the most over looked things in the MMO's today. A raid leader cussing out a raid, a group member in a pug cussing out a new player that doesn't live up to their standards, even a troll roling over someone because they don't have the "correct" gear on them is a common theme. I've been doing end game raiding for 18 years in MMO's. I've never used a build / rotation to it's letter because it doesn't fit my game play. I doubt I ever will. But I still end up being one of the core raiders because I learn my role/class/supporting classes so I can work with them and make all of us look like Gods... Let VR be the Gods of this game. Once they hand it over to us, I have no doubt we will enjoy every frustrating moment and fail as much (if not more) than the sucesses...

    You're very welcome my friend, we won't be rushing anything but we work hard, very hard and set very high standards for our work, plus we set ourselves realistic internal goals, milestones and deadlines so although we (and almost every other company in the world) rarely makes a public ETA or set date as it will always be turned around and used against us in a negative manner, we will release that information when we feel it is close to being achievable with too many things change that timeframe.

    As for the block feature, that is definitely something we can discuss more in testing and get feedback on. 

    A fine polished game released late will have a much better reception (and reputation) than an early release riddled with problems.  Would we all be happy if released tomorrow, oh hell ya!  But, am more than happy to wait for a fine product (and I see this sentiment often in forums).

    • 3852 posts
    March 21, 2017 8:55 AM PDT

    >A fine polished game released late will have a much better reception (and reputation) than an early release riddled with problems.  Would we all be happy if released tomorrow, oh hell ya!  But, am more than happy to wait for a fine product (and I see this sentiment often in forums).<

    This is very very true. And the number one cause of failed MMOs may be premature release.

    But a LESS important but also valid concern is expressed by the maxim that the perfect is the enemy of the good. The team will always have improvements in mind - that is the nature of the beast. The team will always see things that can be done better - pretty poor team if they aren't always thinking of improvements. Do we want to wait for housing before the game is released - no. Do we want to wait for the ability to build ships before the game is released - no. Do we want to ...well the point is clear.

    The goal should be to have a relatively smooth, relatively polished, relatively bug-free game at release. Anything else risks the curse of Conan (or Vanguard) and failure. We need to have plans to have endgame content - interesting endgame content - available before more than a few people get to maximum level. It doesn't have to be out when we are all level one but if level 50 is the maximum, it takes three months to get to level 50, and the team releases a game six months away from having any level 50 content ready - that risks the curse of SWTOR - failure as people get to maximum level and notice there isn't a thing that is worth doing to do.

    The curse of Conan is a powerful curse - Crom and Mitra and Set witness the truth of my words! But waiting endlessly as the team improves things, while people here complain in ever-greater numbers, and a year of testing turns into two, and word spreads that maybe Pantheon is just vaporware after all - that is a pretty damn dangerous curse also. Insidious - it is so easy to fight the last war and the last war is not releasing a game as incomplete as Vanguard.

    For clarity - I DO think the number one enemy is what I have labeled the curse of Conan. I do NOT think the team is taking too long getting the game right. I do NOT expect beta to slip past the first quarter of 2018, maybe first half. But I am contrarian by nature and cannot resist noting "the perfect is the enemy of the good" now and then after numerous (and quite proper and appropriate) expressions of fear of the curse of Conan.

    ((no Conan isn't the worst release ever though it was pretty bad I picked it because I liked the juxtoposition of curse and Conan each starting with cee)).


    This post was edited by dorotea at March 21, 2017 8:58 AM PDT