A few years ago after yet another failed MMO (dont even recall which one... maybe Rift?) an old EQ buddy told me to keep an eye out for Pantheon. He told me some old EQ devs were working to put something together with an EQ style feel. So after following the game the last few years and watching the streams of the game I must say I have gotten pretty excited. The way the game has evolved from one stream to the next is simply amazing and for a retired old school EQ gamer like myself, it has really got the blood pumping. With that being said there are a few things I noticed that I would love to be changed or improved. I also know these things could already be on the devs checklist or will end up being on it seeing as the game is still a ways from being finished. These are not rants just mere things I picked up from the latest stream.
1. That weird trumpet sound when you aggro a mob. What is the deal with that? Is it really necessary? It seems there was another game that had a sound similar to that when you aggroed something but I cant remember which. Do we really need a trumpet to alert us? Small detail I know but is it really needed?
2a. Spell casting animations. The particle effects that are in so far look super cool. But I noticed when the characters cast a spell there is no finishing animation. They raise their arms up to cast and then once the spell is cast just put their arms back down. Shouldnt there be some kind of finishing animation? Could you imagine Super Saiyan Goku raising his arms to Kamehameha (sp?) then just put his arms down? Or a wizard raising his arms to cast firebolt then put his arms down and a bolt flies off? Also something I realize is probably on the checklist.
2b. Spell casting particles. This is where EQ shined in my opinion. Buffs were so fun to cast because of the particle effects and sounds.There are some cool particles so far such as the green gas from poison spells and the lightning effect. But I noticed with some buff spells the effect on the player its being cast on is less than exciting. Such as some of the hp/armor buffs. Its just a little shield that circles around the player. Shouldnt there be more to it than that? Remember how in EQ when you buffed someone their whole character lit up with particles? Especially the shield of the magi line. It was so colorful and fun to cast on yourself. I also understand this may be on the punch list too. And I am so happy some of the eq buff sounds have made their way here. But I am hoping there will be more particles effects on spells than what we have seen so far.
2c. Spell gems. Yet another one that seems lacking... especially the buff gems. In EQ all the buff lines had distinctive gems which made it easy to know what they were and what classification of spell they were. The clarity/mana buffs from the ENC had that blue hue with the mind icon, the shaman stat buffs had that arm with the bulging bicep, and so on. I am hopeful this is something that will be taken into consideration.
Of all the games I have played (the list is huge) , EQ stood far far superior when it came to spells. Everything about them from the gems to the casting to the effects to the sounds is something no other game has even came close to replicating. I really really hope this will be a priority because I have already seen many people's happy remarks about some of the EQ spell sounds being in the game. Casting spells in EQ played a huge part in what made the game so fun.
3. Mob debuff window. One thing that has annoyed me about the most recent MMO's is mobs having a debuff window. It is so annoying to see that bloody sword icon pop up everytime a sword procs gouge/sickness/ or whatever DoT lands. Do we really need to know every single debuff/DoT that a mob has on it? Does anyone actually hover their cursor over the gems to see what the debuffs and procs are? I just dont see why we need to know what buffs/debuffs/DoTs a mob has. I have noticed this in every single MMO over the last few years and never seen the point of it. When raiding there are 30-40 gems that show up and there is noone checking to see what they are. It is just something noone pays attention to. If a mob needs to be debuffed then let us figure out what it is that needs to be debuffed. And we dont need to see a gem everytime someones weapon procs.
4. Attack/Spell dmg. Kind of a follow up to the mob debuff window. Do we really need to see hps flying all over the screen for attack/spell dmg? We have chat windows we can create for that when we want to see damage. It would be cool to have something like that for criticals but thats about it. When a group of people are attacking a mob numbers are just flying all over the place. If this stays in game hopefully its something that can be turned off.
5. Shaman pet. I think one of the VoT guys brought this up but the wolf looks like a icy ghost wolf and its attack is a dog paddle lol. I can only assume that is not the final model. I dont imagine a wolf standing on his 2 hind legs slapping mobs with this front 2 paws is going to do much damage. I would thing biting would be the ticket.
6. Torches. Are torches actually going to be weapons? Will they be a weapon of choice or will we be required to use one as a weapon if we are carrying one as a lightsource? I noticed in the last stream everyone was carrying torches for light but attacking with them as well.
7. Binding/Gating. I can only assume this will be in game although I didnt see anyone bind or gate during the stream.
8. Hail! With the perception system being in game does this mean we wont be required to Hail NPCs? I would hope that we will need to chat via text with some NPCs instead of them flagging us down when we are in range of them. I feel like this is important so that we can actively seek out other NPCs for quests and things. If all the quest NPCs are part of the perception system then that will allow for someone who would have normally just ran by to get these quests.. In EQ there were hundreds of quests that most of us never found because we didnt talk to those NPCs. If NPCs are getting YOUR attention then to me it seems too easy for people to get those quests. I am hoping quests are not limited to the perception system and we can actually find others by Hailing NPCs that most would never think to talk to.
9. Fleeing mobs. I love that this is in game!! In EQ fleeing mobs would stop when they were snared. This put a huge responsibility on the druid/ranger/wiz in group to make sure solo mobs were snared when they got low HPs. I am not sure I saw an example of snare stopping a fleeing mob on the stream. I know rooting a mob would work but the problem with root is that a fleeing mob will resume attacking if you root it where as snare kept them in a state of fleeing but stopped them from running. Anyone know if snare works the same as EQ?
These are just some of the things that have been running thru my mind. Again, not rants in any way. I am looking forward to what is coming and cant wait for the next stream!
Keep in mind this is still Pre Pre Alpha stage so the devs have to take this in steps of priority. Considering the stages of improvements between each of the three main streams, you should have confidence that they are leading us to a well designed game. I am sure as we test, they will still take in our feedback from a game play standpoint, and finish polishing smaller details once bigger ones are addressed.
Again, just take a look at the improvements so far in their short time of building the dev team. Long ways to go yet...
Raidan said: I've been following Pantheon a long time and also am a retired EQ vet who shares yur enthusiasm. With that said... on to your list: 1. Unknown - but I'd say its safe to assume that sounds are subject to change before launch. 2a/b/c: A lot of animations and graphics are placeholder at the moment - they will be improved. I assume spell gems are included. 3. I'm sure the window will be toggleable if you don't want to see it. 4. There has been developer confirmation previously that floating damage or chat box damage will be toggleable. 5. Again - pre-alpha and improvements will be made. 6. Maybe both? Melt some ice as part of the climate system? Or be forced to choose between light source, shield, or dual wielded sword? 7. There will be binding and gating, no confirmation that I remember if it'll be EQ-like where casters could bind nearly anywhere and melee only in cities though. Also no confirmation on melees having an ability like recall from VG. 8. I'd wager it would be a combination of both. Based on your perception skill, you may be able to sense keywords that others aren't able to, or after hailing someone perhaps read indicators that someone with a low perception skill could not. Just speculation though. 9. No confirmation that I know of as spell lists haven't been revealed. But, strategy is being brought back to combat so I'd say its safe to assume a snare type effect will exists
I pretty much agree with everything Raidan has said. Would like to add a few things though.
3. While you may not use the debuff ui window for anything there are some people who do. As a raid leader and a person who usually forms groups and thus ends up as leader of a lot of my groups I like to have the debuff window up so I can check to see if important debuffs are up. Regular mobs aren't much of a big deal but possibly tough bosses I'll look for specific debuffs and ask for them if I don't see them up. But as Raidan stated this is usually toggable just like floating dmg numbers.
6. I feel like torches will be big for the early parts of the game and then as players progress and gain levels we will obtain spells and abilities that aid us in lighting our surrounding area. Possibly doing away with torches altogether during the later levels. If this is the case then I don't see torches being used for much more than a simple light source. BUT if we are to use torches throughout our entire time in Terminus then maybe they will have multiple uses such as weapons and tools and etc.
8. This is something I haven't thought about until now and I agree, I would hope not every single quest is obtained via the perception system or at least by being nudged into a particular direction. I'd like for a healthy mix of perception and a good ol' fashioned /hail to an NPC to see if they need any help. I think having a mix of the two will be great for the game since it would mix things up a bit rather than simply having the player strictly resort to having the perception system guide them.
Saicred said:I'll just say this, keep these in mind for testing so you can give feedback on them in Pre-alpha, Alpha, and Beta. Until then I wouldn't worry too much about any of it as I'm sure tons of it will change and be tweaked during testing :)
This is exactly right, I know it is out of passion and excitement that these threads are created but critiquing a game that hasn't even hit it's first testing phase yet just doesn't make sense, it is impossible to judge us based on what you see in streams and videos, my advice is wait until testing and when you can get your first-hand experience, then provide constructive feedback via the provided channels. :)
I usually skim check-list style wishes/dislikes threads such as these for moderating and then move on as they don't help us with development and usually reach many pages of opinions and personal preference with stories from other games included but I wanted to highlight Saicreds reply for others to read, as it really is best left until people can get their hands on the game and experience it themselves before trying to provide feedback and this is nothing against you Xaleban, I just want everyone to see my reply and know for future reference. :)
Some good observations, but the debuff window is something that hits home the most with me. I have to say, games have certainly succeeded over the years in becoming more forthright about what is happening in the game, but is that necessarily a good thing? I think the busy UI or HUD stuff has gone too far. It's great that things like this will be optional, but when things like mob status effects can already be viewed under their target window, I think the question that must be asked is, "Does this optional clutter help or hurt the immersion value, and is it not really just another form of convenience that harms what is trying to be achieved in other places?"
I think hovering status effects should be limited to health bars personally, if that.
Kilsin said:Saicred said:I'll just say this, keep these in mind for testing so you can give feedback on them in Pre-alpha, Alpha, and Beta. Until then I wouldn't worry too much about any of it as I'm sure tons of it will change and be tweaked during testing :)
This is exactly right, I know it is out of passion and excitement that these threads are created but critiquing a game that hasn't even hit it's first testing phase yet just doesn't make sense, it is impossible to judge us based on what you see in streams and videos, my advice is wait until testing and when you can get your first-hand experience, then provide constructive feedback via the provided channels. :)
I usually skim check-list style wishes/dislikes threads such as these for moderating and then move on as they don't help us with development and usually reach many pages of opinions and personal preference with stories from other games included but I wanted to highlight Saicreds reply for others to read, as it really is best left until people can get their hands on the game and experience it themselves before trying to provide feedback and this is nothing against you Xaleban, I just want everyone to see my reply and know for future reference. :)
Another thing for people to consider is that if this game were fully privately funded, we probably wouldn't even be seeing much at all at this point, maybe just a screenshot or two of terrain. VR is open about development because it's seeking crowd funding and investment.
bigdogchris said:Kilsin said:Saicred said:I'll just say this, keep these in mind for testing so you can give feedback on them in Pre-alpha, Alpha, and Beta. Until then I wouldn't worry too much about any of it as I'm sure tons of it will change and be tweaked during testing :)
This is exactly right, I know it is out of passion and excitement that these threads are created but critiquing a game that hasn't even hit it's first testing phase yet just doesn't make sense, it is impossible to judge us based on what you see in streams and videos, my advice is wait until testing and when you can get your first-hand experience, then provide constructive feedback via the provided channels. :)
I usually skim check-list style wishes/dislikes threads such as these for moderating and then move on as they don't help us with development and usually reach many pages of opinions and personal preference with stories from other games included but I wanted to highlight Saicreds reply for others to read, as it really is best left until people can get their hands on the game and experience it themselves before trying to provide feedback and this is nothing against you Xaleban, I just want everyone to see my reply and know for future reference. :)
Another thing for people to consider is that if this game were fully privately funded, we probably wouldn't even be seeing much at all at this point, maybe just a screenshot or two of terrain. VR is open about development because it's seeking crowd funding and investment.
This is very accurate, if we had of been funded from the start, our door would be firmly closed and the blinds pulled over the windows, since we are part angel invested and part crowd-funded we are kind of in a weird place where the windows are half pulled and the door is open halfway, we try to be as transparent as possible while still keeping our heads down and working hard, we don't over hype our game and that is something we manage very carefully, but when we have something to show, we rarely hang onto it for longer than a few days before releasing it to everyone.
In this day and age everyone is used to judging everything online, whether it be social media, twitter posts, videos, opinions etc. so anything we put up people feel inclined to judge us and although it is human nature and the trend to do so in this day and age, it is still very unwise, games like this change, a lot, over the course of development and anything you see now may now even make it to the final release, if it does it may not be anything remotely similar to how you see it now, so my advice is to use the information we provide as measurable progress and enjoy the updates without feeling the urge to stamp us with a score or critique our unfinished work until it is actually a final product and released for judging :)
Again, this is nothing against the OP at all, this is just a general statement to help people understand a bit better :)
Enitzu said:Not good enough Kilsin! grumble grumble pitchforks and torches!!! lol
Haha, I know it can be frustrating man, I try my best to keep you all informed and up to date with every scrap of information I can release but it is more waiting game than anything right now, the devs are working very hard on getting the game ready for testing and once that is released you will see a huge swing in community behaviour and mentality plus once they are in-game we will be able to start actually doing some serious testing and getting important feedback from everyone, which is something I am really looking forward to. :)
Kilsin said:if we had of been funded from the start, our door would be firmly closed and the blinds pulled over the windows, since we are part angel invested and part crowd-funded we are kind of in a weird place where the windows are half pulled and the door is open halfway
I love you Kilsin, and I feel VR has done a fantastic job from the very beginning, but your comment is sort of alienating.
I get a "If we didn't NEED you, you wouldn't be here" kinda vibe, or am I completely reading into that too much?
But you're right afterall. Dealing with the mass of members throughout all stages of development has to be a hell of a job, including unnecessary, confrontational posts like this ;p (sorry)
I just hope that we forum peasants, as a whole, over time, have been more of a help than a hindrance, and we aren't just being paid lip service for our token contributions.
This post was nothing more than what the title says... thoughts on game so far. I stated several times that I know its still early and most of what I mentioned will be changed. Are we not allowed to voice our opinions or ask questions? Many of us are so excited we just want to talk about the game to help take the edge off. No offense Kilsin but this was not a negative criticism of the game nor was it meant to clutter the forums with more numerous opinions. It was simply ''off the dome'' questions, suggestions, and opinions I had after watching the latest stream in hopes of getting others similar or even dissimilar opinions. I am fully aware our opinions, suggestions, and critiques will be more valued during testing. But what is the harm in a general discussion about the game in a general discussion forum? I am truly sorry if this ended up being forum clutter. I do not post much but when I do I will refrain from creating another thread discussing game mechanics and reserve those opinions for testing. Again it was simply an attempt to gain insight from others on those specific topics. If this thread needs to be closed then feel free to do so. Thanks!
Hmm I don't feel that way about the comment. I find it simply realistic. It's easy to imagine how fun it must be to share it with those who can see the potential and how tiresome at times it must be to share it with those who look for a finished project while it's not even in alpha yet. It must be so much easier in that sense just to be able to do your job and only show the results once it's getting close to something finished. While this process is really fun for me, I can see how stressful it must be at times when people jump to wrong conclusions and judge the game beforehand while only seeing a tiny part of the whole picture as it's still 'bad press' for the game if you don't contain it efficiently. It must be easier if you can spare yourself that headache and just go "Tadaaa!" when it's exactly as intended :D.
Lokispawn said:Kilsin said:if we had of been funded from the start, our door would be firmly closed and the blinds pulled over the windows, since we are part angel invested and part crowd-funded we are kind of in a weird place where the windows are half pulled and the door is open halfway
I love you Kilsin, and I feel VR has done a fantastic job from the very beginning, but your comment is sort of alienating.
I get a "If we didn't NEED you, you wouldn't be here" kinda vibe, or am I completely reading into that too much?
But you're right afterall. Dealing with the mass of members throughout all stages of development has to be a hell of a job, including unnecessary, confrontational posts like this ;p (sorry)
I just hope that we forum peasants, as a whole, over time, have been more of a help than a hindrance, and we aren't just being paid lip service for our token contributions.
That is what it means, but not in a bad way. In most cases, games don't see the light of day until they are at least somewhat playable. Only higher ups and money people would see it before that.
In this case, we the public are the "money people" and it's a new paradigm to adjust to. Devs aren't used to people who are paying for the game development but without the weight and authority to back it up.
In essence, because we are supporting it, we're getting a privileged voice. Rather than keeping us in the dark as is customary, they are being transparent and patiently fielding the backlash from that.
It isn't so much a personal, "well, we wish we could avoid YOU, but since we need your money..." That's actually less the case for us than it is for big investors. We get this privilege out of courtesy where traditionally it was coerced by powerful investors.
They have more leeway with us, and they are saying they choose the welcoming route by their own decision to cultivate good will.
EDIT because auto incorrect and I finally found a way to edit from my phone!
I love you Kilsin, and I feel VR has done a fantastic job from the very beginning, but your comment is sort of alienating.
I get a "If we didn't NEED you, you wouldn't be here" kinda vibe, or am I completely reading into that too much?
This is why I would never want a job like Kilsin's. The gaming community is harsh.
No matter how good your intentions or how helpful your posts, someone always has to find a way to read some sort of negative connotations into it or find a way to take offense.
Keep those attitudes positive people!
Elwyn said:This is why I would never want a job like Kilsin's. The gaming community is harsh.
No matter how good your intentions or how helpful your posts, someone always has to find a way to read some sort of negative connotations into it or find a way to take offense.
Keep those attitudes positive people!
Hey now, I wasn't *harsh*, but not every aspect of forum posting has to be rainbows and sunshine. There are debates to be had, and we're never going to all agree or be happy about everything. Just read the 30 page AH post ;)
Nor was I offended. Sometimes the truth hurts. I can accept that. If it so happens that under normal circumstances none of us would be here engaged in the development discussions/process to the extent we have been, that's ok.
My comment spoke to the idea that since we ARE contributors and we ARE here, and this is the route VR has decided to take with paying members of these forums, it stings a little bit to be reminded of our extraneous nature. Not a big deal.
I began my post with a sincere compliment and ended it with the heartfelt hope that we as forum members bring more good than bad. Of course they would never tell us if we were a nuisance, even if it were true, which is why it was worded the way it was instead of a direct question as to our collective usefulness.
I'd be the first to stop posting completely until testing began if we were asked to scale posting back as development hits fever pitch.
And as for positivity, I've been cheering for Pantheon since kickstarter day 1. I've told all of my friends, and have garnered support and stuck up for the game in the face of naysayers and detractors. I believe in the team they have, the ideas on gaming they profess, and will continue to do so as long as the game remains legitimate in its claims.
Kilsin said:Enitzu said:Not good enough Kilsin! grumble grumble pitchforks and torches!!! lol
Haha, I know it can be frustrating man, I try my best to keep you all informed and up to date with every scrap of information I can release but it is more waiting game than anything right now, the devs are working very hard on getting the game ready for testing and once that is released you will see a huge swing in community behaviour and mentality plus once they are in-game we will be able to start actually doing some serious testing and getting important feedback from everyone, which is something I am really looking forward to. :)
Lokispawn said:Kilsin said:if we had of been funded from the start, our door would be firmly closed and the blinds pulled over the windows, since we are part angel invested and part crowd-funded we are kind of in a weird place where the windows are half pulled and the door is open halfway
I love you Kilsin, and I feel VR has done a fantastic job from the very beginning, but your comment is sort of alienating.
I get a "If we didn't NEED you, you wouldn't be here" kinda vibe, or am I completely reading into that too much?
But you're right afterall. Dealing with the mass of members throughout all stages of development has to be a hell of a job, including unnecessary, confrontational posts like this ;p (sorry)
I just hope that we forum peasants, as a whole, over time, have been more of a help than a hindrance, and we aren't just being paid lip service for our token contributions.
I am sorry it read like that my friend, I was trying to limit my words and didn't mean it to sound like that at all.
We love and need our community with or without financial support but what I meant was that if we got funded at the beginning by an investor, we would not have these development forums or take input from anyone, we would not sell pledges or be releasing anything to the media until we were roughly 6 months from testing, then we would ramp up hype, PR and slowly leak information until we released testing then onto the the official release.
Which is why I said that it is a weird place for us to be in because we are kind of funded by both angel investors and crowdfunding, but we love you folks and have always been honest, upfront and as transparent as possible not because you gave us money but because we value your support and are part of the reason why we are making this game! (The other part is we are selfish and want this game for ourselves too lol)
I hope that helps clear it up :)
Elwyn said:I love you Kilsin, and I feel VR has done a fantastic job from the very beginning, but your comment is sort of alienating.
I get a "If we didn't NEED you, you wouldn't be here" kinda vibe, or am I completely reading into that too much?
This is why I would never want a job like Kilsin's. The gaming community is harsh.
No matter how good your intentions or how helpful your posts, someone always has to find a way to read some sort of negative connotations into it or find a way to take offense.
Keep those attitudes positive people!
Haha I didn't take it that way my friend, I understood what they meant and I am happy to clear up any misunderstandings so everyone is on the same page :)