The reason why I like the compromise is because it will allow me to make a look that actually matches. I still remember running around in EQ with a patchwork of armor that looked like I had chosen it by playing blind mans bluff in a smithy. The only time you had armor that matched was when you got a full set of something, and it took me till past lvl 50 for that to happen. I hope that Pantheon has armor that is able to be brought together for a nice look, and at a much lower level than 50. I like what I have seen in the streams so far. I am glad that I will be able to see appearance gear if I want to, however if the armor is good enough, and available so that I can get the look I want, I probably won't even have a need for it. I don't really want to look like a vagabond again. :)
Aradune said:I'm glad you guys like it -- putting the cosmetic toggle in the hands of the person looking, not the person wearing, seems to be the way to go. And the compromise came from people in the community -- much appreciated!
I am soooo glad you guys made this decision. I, for one, like cosmetics. I hated it in EQ looking like a clown due to the wide variety of colors applied to gear. I love having my gear match. I really don;t care how others view my character. I only care about how I see it on my screen.
Thank you for hearing the community and finding a way to let everyone have their own way.
@gnog
you're not understanding the system, i also didn't understand at first.
You are the one to choose what to see. If a player is using cosmetic gear and you have the "adventure" mode toggle on, you will see their real equiped gear. you won't even know they have cosmetic gear on (unless they tell you).
And if a player has the "cosmetic" mode toggle on, they will still see be able to see your real equiped gear, if you choose to make it the same as your cosmetic one.
Gnog said: I think Rominian and Kellindel have done a good job of making my point. They like the cosmetic option because now, instead of acquiring gear that matches (hard), they can wear a hodgepodge of mismatching equipment but cloak that mishmash in a nice looking exterior (easy). I just can't help but believe that this decision caters to the same crowd that diluted the MMO genre and gave us the garbage we have today, from which Pantheon was put forth as a departure.
So, question: If there is no cash shop, how does one aquire the cosmetic gear? Do I just, have it? Is this what you assume?
My assumption is that I will be able to go into the game and kill things and get loot. I get to high level and go into a dungeon and kill a bunch of named and spend weeks looting a full set of Mithril.
I equip it and look awesome!
Months later after raiding and hitting up more higher level dungeons I find a bunch more loot that is MUCH better stat wise than my cool looking Mithril.
Now I look like a multi-colored clown in patchwork armor. Damn!
Oh, but with the cosmetic slots, I can place the Mithril armor THAT I WORKED SO HARD FOR into the slots for cosmetics. Sweet! Now I look awesome again!
I earned that look. Why shouldn't I be able to keep it? Why are you the one to decide what my character gets to look like? Maybe I wear chain on my character, but I rather like the look of leather armor for ascetics. Why can't I slap on a cheap set of leather to get the look I want?
Everyone always slides back to the "You are circumventing accomplishments" arguement. I am not going around anything if I have to gather the loot like everyone else. Now I just have the freedom to pick and choose what I see.
You assume this is going to be Tera or Archeage, or one of the other Korean MMOs that focus on flashy out of character items for cosmetics. It does NOT have to be that way. It can be true to lore, still require acheivments, and still be controlled by the viewer. I can't see how this is till an issue for anyone at all.
Edit: I can't type for crap.
Gnog said: Enitzu, Your posts are usually thoughtful. This one really disappointed. You didn't give any reason to support this decision, and just say that it's foolish to think a modern MmO wouldn't have a cosmetic option. Doesn't really do anything for me.
You're right, I didn't put much of a thought out arguement into that. So I'll see what I can do to change my statement.
You're saying that cosmetic gear devalues the accomplishment of actually achieving top end gear. At least that is what I am getting from reading some of your posts here. If top end gear was to share looks with easy to obtain cosmetic gear, I would fully agree with you here. However, that is rarely the case in any game and I highly doubt that VR would allow it here. That top end gear should be noticable. It should be envied when it's seen. It should make a person want to progress farther into the game in order to obtain it. Giving the looks of high end armor to low end cosmetic gear should not, and I'll even go out on the limb here since I have faith, and will not happen. Now while some cosmetic gear will be craftable, arguably a lot of it will be, that doesn't mean it will have the same looks. Cosmetic stuff could be totally different. Some of it could look better. Some could look worse. Personally, I won't even care because I want to show off my accomplishments. But that doesn't mean that I want to tell someone who doesn't put in as much as time as me that they should look bland. So in some ways I do agree with your statements, but I can not support them. I wouldn't tell someone who can't invest as much as I can that they can't play how they want to play because it doesn't matter to me. I have my way by having an option not to see the cosmetic gear. So let them have theirs by being able to see it.
Even if later on people end up being able to craft gear that looks similar to current end game stuff, I wouldn't really care. It won't have the stats and it won't be an accomplishment. Yes it can diminish my accomplishments. But I know what I have done as do the people who matter, guild and friends. I don't raid to stroke my epeen. I raid because it's what I enjoy.
As for cash shop stuff, cash shops can be a good source of revenue. So long as the gear has its own look, I would have no problems with it. Even if it looks high end. After all they are investing in the game which benefits me in terms of more content.
I tend to stand on the grounds that the game should be for any type of person that wants a tough game. Be it casual, hardcore, whatever they should all have a place here. Limiting the things people can do only limits the amount of people coming to the game. These minor things that have little to no impact on gameplay and don't affect me in any way, really shouldn't have such a hampering because we don't know who may just say "well I don't like to raid and I can't build up a good looking character without it so I'll pass". Those types of people do exist, I know quite a few of them. That's the way they choose to play a game then so be it. It doesn't hurt me in any way so more power to them.
kellindil said:My assumption is, that I will be able to go into the game and kill things and get loot. I get to high level and go into a dungeon and kill a bunch of named and spend weeks lotting a full set of Mithril.
I equip it and look awesome!
Months later after raiding and hitting up more higher level dungeons I find a bunch more loot that is MUCH better stat wise than my cool looking Mithril.
Now I looke like a multi-colored clown in patchwork armor. Damn!
Oh, but with the cosmetic slots, I can place the Mithril armor THAT I WORKED SO HARD FOR into the slots for cosmetics. Sweet! Now I look awesome again!
Also this. Some people like a certain look and after getting new gear they still want to keep that look. They put in the work to earn it they should have the option to keep it if they choose.
Edit - Sorry Kilsin meant to edit my previous post!
You can have cosmetic gear without buying it from a cash shop. It's called transmogrification in WoW. You can wear whatever you want for stats without looking like a mismatched vagabond. You still have to naturally acquire the gear in the game before you can ever wear it cosmetically, though. It's a very important distinction that I think some people have missed. I am in favor of transmog. I am 100% against people buying awesome "cosmetic" armor sets at level 20 who can/will look better than the average level 50 player. In my opinion, the cash shop should be limited to profile enhancement. Borders, icons, splash art backgrounds, etc. It would have no impact on how our characters look ... only their profiles, should someone inspect them. I went into detail at the top of this page with the idea. If done correctly a cash shop could allow people to increase their "social" status (profile) without diminshing the value we all place on our "adventure" status (character appearance). I would actually be in favor of a system like that because I know the great earning potential that cash shops can provide ... it just has to be done in moderation. I'm confident there are ways to do it should VR want to pursue that road without causing an uproar from the player base.
oneADseven said:You can have cosmetic gear without buying it from a cash shop. It's called transmogrification in WoW. You can wear whatever you want for stats without looking like a mismatched vagabond. You still have to naturally acquire the gear in the game before you can ever wear it cosmetically, though. It's a very important distinction that I think some people have missed. I am in favor of transmog. I am 100% against people buying awesome "cosmetic" armor sets at level 20 who can/will look better than the average level 50 player. In my opinion, the cash shop should be limited to profile enhancement. Borders, icons, splash art backgrounds, etc. It would have no impact on how our characters look ... only their profiles, should someone inspect them. I went into detail at the top of this page with the idea. If done correctly a cash shop could allow people to increase their "social" status (profile) without diminshing the value we all place on our "adventure" status (character appearance). I would actually be in favor of a system like that because I know the great earning potential that cash shops can provide ... it just has to be done in moderation. I'm confident there are ways to do it should VR want to pursue that road without causing an uproar from the player base.
Question again: why are you so against it, if you can just turn off cosmetics? I am one of the, few maybe, who do like cosmetic cash shops. I have purchased things before. I support the devs and get something neat. Now I get that some don;t like seeing it. Its one thing I hate about the games I mentioned. all the silly looking out of character cosmetics. Now everyone has the choice to turn it on or off. So, with this feature you would never have to see any cash shop items ever. How does it still impact you in the least? You WONT see it. Its not there for you.
Now I am completely against a cash shop having items that mimic high end gear and items. It does detract from those items. Having cash shop items that are unquie from any actual in game items should be the route taken if there were a cash shop, I know that they have stated at this time they don;t plan on it yes.
I could easily say that these profile enhancments detract from other players. Everyone now has less of an experience in the game unless they buy the UI flare you talk about. You having a flashier UI somehow detracts from my game experience, though I can't see your UI, just as you can't see my cosmetics. I am with Enitzu, cash shops if handled correctly are GOOD. Cosmetics in the cash shop are GOOD, as long as people can choose what they can see. nothing will effect me unless I choose so.
Gnog said: Thanks, Enitzu, and others, for explaining your side of this. I can't say that I agree. I definitely do not. Only time will tell how much this feature detracts from my experience. But I appreciate the explanation and I hope your optimism bears out in reality.
I'm not in favour of cosmetic gear myself, but I don't see how this can possibly take away from your experience, simply set your mode to adventure mode and you will see what people are actually wearing, you will never see any cosmetic gear.'
@Cash shop talk
They have already stated time and again there will be no cash shop, of any kind for anything, arguing about what should be in this non-existent cash shop is pointless and detracts from the point of the thread.
Gnog said: To summarize: - diminishes significance of hard to acquire, cool looking items - decouples appearance from accomplishment - diverts developer resources - reflects values that are unrecognizable to me as someone seeking a difficult, you get only what you earn MMO - cosmetic appearances will be the subject of conversation in chat and voice channels, which means I either turn them on or miss out on part of the shared Pantheon experience (in this sense, I can't just "turn it off") - it has the potential to break immersion (warriors running around in Plate armor that's been cosmetically changed to look like a robe, or a pink skirt?) - opens the door to cash shops But like I said, I guess I'll have to just hope that ya'll are right that it won't be too big a drawback on the experience.
You do get that the toggle means you will always see peoples true gear? You need never see anything cosmetic.
Aradune said:Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency. Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary.
Thank you for the clarification and this is exactly the type of system that I was hoping to see.
Gnog said: Yes, I get that. The toggle feature addresses like one of my several concerns (immersion) but even w/r/t immersion, it hurts immersion for people I'm playing with to talk about cosmetics that I don't see, which absolutely will happen.
Meh, you can't make everyone happy I guess. This also strikes me as an odd place to plant your flag so fervently.
It seems that you were right in your original statement, you are in the minority. This ticks a ton of boxes for a lot of people so this may just be one quality of life mechanic you have to find a way to deal with. If people chatting about something is damaging to your immersion then I would think that a) just about any conversation about anything in game would break your immersion, b) you may want to evaluate your propensity to have your immersion broken, and/or c) you might be better off removing the variables by playing a single player game so that you might remain totally immersed (or at least on your own terms).
Not to mention, this immersion fallacy seems to come up often - the idea that what is immersive to one is inherently immersive to all, or vice versa.
oneADseven said:Aradune said:Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency. Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary.
Thank you for the clarification and this is exactly the type of system that I was hoping to see.
I think we should probably add some clarification/additional info to the FAQ as this is such a volatile issue.
Rachael said:They have already stated time and again there will be no cash shop, of any kind for anything, arguing about what should be in this non-existent cash shop is pointless and detracts from the point of the thread.
Aradune said:Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency. Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary.
Well said Rachael. Thanks for clearing things up Brad (though I'm not convinced they needed to be >.<).
Aradune said:I think we should probably add some clarification/additional info to the FAQ as this is such a volatile issue.
I don't know that's necessarily the case Brad. If you look at this thread in its entirety, the majority of us are for choice in this instance. I'm all for additional information and clarification (and far be it from me to tell the team not to expand on a mechanic or idea) but at some point you just have to be ok with the fact that people, especially people on the internet, are going to find a way/reason to take exception with nearly anything.
