Forums » The Wizard

Defensive abilities

    • 32 posts
    February 20, 2017 8:51 AM PST

    So what would you like to see as defensive abilities for a wizard?

     

    Already mentioned was some kind of short distance teleport spell like Fade/ Shadowstep in EQ. That alone wont be enough though.

    The Wizard always had Runes to cover his skin and absorb blows and magic. The Wizard epic had a Klickeffect Force Shield, back then a huge Damage absorb. Id like something like this again.

     

    Some kind of Aggro losing Ability would also be good like Jolt / Concussion spell line. Maybe 1 Big cooldown Jolt that resets aggro and a small one that can be cast inbetween.

     

    Whats your ideas?

    • 601 posts
    February 20, 2017 9:27 AM PST

    I like the idea of a Mana Shield. Something I can throw up in a time of need, but will cost me greatly by taking my Mana instead of Hp Per hit.  

     

    Wouldn't mind even if it was a channeled ability. One that you could have up until OOM. Of course as a Wizard we all know being OOM is basically being dead as we are 95% less effective without Mana, but maybe certain situations require something of the sort. 

     

    Other than that I think I'm good with very limited defensive abilities as I hope to not need them in a group. As for Soloing... I expect Wizards to be the highest DPS class in group so with that I expect them to be limited on defense to limit their solo ability. 

    • 2695 posts
    February 20, 2017 9:44 AM PST

    While it's easy to explain a Wizard having almost any ability "because magic," it's important that they still have some vulnerabilities. If they are not somehow reliant on other archetypes, they will just become unstoppable soloing machines. I don't think that's necessarily what you're suggesting, but it's worth putting it out there. I suspect Wizards in Pantheon will tend to lean more toward the "Glass Cannon" end of the spectrum. The class description suggests that they have truly unbelievable power, but it is sometimes unstable. For this reason, I think it is important that they not have too many "Get Out of Jail Free" cards to fall back on. The skill and strategy in playing a Wizard should be trying to find the fine line between maximizing your damage output and not pulling aggro. Having aggro-loss and other defensive abilities decreases the amount of strategy involved if it does not sufficiently punish you for finding that balance. Either you take a lot of damage, or the other members of you group (tank, healer, CC) have to help to make up for your mistake.

    That said, I can conceive of a force field that perhaps can only be cast on self and maybe only wards against other forms of magic (not physical) but does so very well. I'm not saying that Wizards should have 0 defensive abilities. But they should have pretty significant limitations imo. I think it makes a lot of sense that the vast majority of a Wizard's defensive abilities be focused on protecting against other magic, rather than all forms of damage.

    It also could be interesting if they have a magical damage shield that damages any enemy that hits the target affected by the shield.

    • 54 posts
    February 20, 2017 10:38 AM PST

    A wizard may, or should IMO, have among the strongest damaging spells in this game. For this reason, as Bazgrim said, this class shoud not have OP defenses as well. But some defenses is important too : why would a wizard study how to kill a whole building at once, and not prevent himself from being injured by an arrow ? This would make no sense.

     

    As a wizard, most of my favorite spells come from Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights.

     

    My favorite defensive spell from BG2 was called Contingency. It is not really a spell by itself, but it works this way : you can cast it between fights, when noone is around. You select a spell from your book and a condition. Then later, it triggers instantly this spell when conditions are met (reaching 25% health, being unable to move, etc). It opens a lot of possibilities, even defending yourself with a fireball centered on yourself, or whatever. It makes you feel very powerful, because you know you always have a backup in case things go wrong. Yet it doesn't always save your life as few spells really do by themselves either.

     

    Some other defensive spells could be :

     

    - damage immunity for X seconds

    - Stoneskin : blocking the next X attacks then the shield breaks

    - Force shield : blocking X damage then shield breaks

    - invisibility : don't need to talk about that one.

    - partial invisibility : X% chance to miss you

    - Etherealness : being unable to deal and to recieve damage at the same time. By extension, being unable to influence the physical world and to be affected by it by any means.

    - Illusion clones : You create illusion clones of yourself around yourself. All illusions have the same chance to get hit as you, and you have one chance to get hit too. Each time an illusion gets hit instead of you, it disappears untill all them get hit or untill spell ends.

    - time stop : stops time around you in an AOE except for yourself during X seconds. Projectiles stop in mid-air, other characters stop any action. You can make any action, that really happen all at once when time stop ends as the battlefield resumes. Both offensive and defensive. OP spell, very fun to play.

     

    Another spell from BG2 i loved was Project Image. When you cast it, an illusion of yourself appears at your position, as well as you get invisible at the same time for the spell duration. Your illusion can cast spell as if it were yourself and has the same life total as yourself. Spell stops at the end of duration or when the illusion dies. (the illusion can move and be controlled by player)

    OP. Lots of fun with that one.

     

     

    Cheers

     


    This post was edited by Gideon at February 20, 2017 10:49 AM PST
    • 152 posts
    February 20, 2017 12:50 PM PST

    You have to be careful with wizard defensive spells.  If wizards are going to be unrivaled magic damage dealers - and I think they should be - then the most obvious way to balance that is the classic "glass cannon" approach.  Philosophically, aggro-management and defensive spells should be distributed between wizards and other classes such that the wizard can only approach their full survivable damage-dealing potential when supported by a full group.  That said, Wizards should have some survival spells of their own.

    I chose the word "survival" instead of "defensive" on purpose because I'd prefer to see the Wizard's "defensive" options be double-edged; every option available to you makes the problem worse long-term in exchange for a momentary reprieve.

    For example, say you accidentally pull a mob off your warrior.  You could stun it with an high-threat thunderclap before it hits you, short-range teleport, and hope somebody fixes the aggro problem - that you just made worse - before it recovers.

    Solo it wouldn't matter, and in raids you'd have to work with your teammates to manage aggro.  Maybe give another class the ability to mitigate or redirect the threat generated by Wizards.


    This post was edited by Shai at February 20, 2017 12:55 PM PST
    • 26 posts
    February 21, 2017 10:01 AM PST

    I think the EQ wizard did it well

     

    List of Spells for defense.

    -Some kind of self buff that adds AC and/or Elemental resists

    -Hit point shield, which uses reagents

    -Root

    -Snare

    OH and EYE of ZOMM! Or should it be called "Train" That way you can kill your group or yourself as fast as possible! - just a joke 8)  Have to get this light.

    • 9 posts
    March 6, 2017 10:27 PM PST

    I would think that a damage shield like Mana shield, stun and root would be sufficient. The short distance teleport thing just gets you into more trouble especially in dungeons because you can't control where it sends you -- it could send you right next to another mob. I never used it for that reason. If I got into trouble the damage shield would protect me enough to allow me to get off a stun or a root then either get out of the mobs melee range or evac/gate.


    This post was edited by Nahanni at March 6, 2017 10:28 PM PST
    • 2695 posts
    March 7, 2017 6:33 AM PST

    Nahanni said:

    The short distance teleport thing just gets you into more trouble especially in dungeons because you can't control where it sends you -- it could send you right next to another mob. I never used it for that reason.

    They could just make it so that it only teleports you a short distance in the direction that you are facing. But even still, it might be kinda meh.

    • 26 posts
    April 5, 2017 7:41 AM PDT

    In general I think agro management is one of the core ways a good Wizard can distinguish themselves as a great player.  Walking that knife edge between maximum effectiveness and being beaten to meaty chunks.  So, it follows that I think drawing agro should be particularly punishing.

    That said, the mana shield idea - particularly if it is configured to leave you OOM or very close to it - is an interesting idea.  Given downtime and the huge reliance on mana to be at all effective, losing all or most of ones mana is pretty punishing.


    This post was edited by Rykath at April 5, 2017 7:42 AM PDT
    • 133 posts
    April 5, 2017 9:04 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Nahanni said:

    The short distance teleport thing just gets you into more trouble especially in dungeons because you can't control where it sends you -- it could send you right next to another mob. I never used it for that reason.

    They could just make it so that it only teleports you a short distance in the direction that you are facing. But even still, it might be kinda meh.

    ESO had a cool defensive spell that ported you a short distance in the direction you were facing and optionally stunned an enemy in your path. So if Big Baddie was loose and set on pounding your Sorc to the ground, you could streak through it and stun it, then reposition yourself. Unfortunately it was rendered mostly useless due to min-maxing and unbalanced abilities coupled with relatively few skills allowed on your bars, which meant you needed to slot certain skills and not others to be effective.

     

    I agree that if wizards are to be glass cannons, then glass cannons they should be. BUT I also think that they should be able to avoid being one-shotted all the time, whether through aggro management, crowd control or defensive skills used judiciously at the right time (e.g. a ward put up in an oh-**** moment but that can't be spammed to make up for poor positioning, aggroing or crowd control).

    • 15 posts
    April 6, 2017 6:53 PM PDT

    Some defensive abilities yes, I thought EQ wizards were fine defensively knowing that I was a glass cannon just with rune, root, aa snare ect. Things along these lines are fine but we can't make the class so overpowered with high def and high offense. One perfect thing would be a long refresh rune that absorbs all damage from one hit and make this spell a regeant heavy one or something along the lines of a duration (ive become superman for 5 seconds) type spell. Duration would be key to these types of spells with the exception of snare and roots.

    • 46 posts
    April 11, 2017 8:46 AM PDT

    I would prefer to see the wizard class be more than someone who sits for 90% of the fight and then stands up and casts one spell and then sits back down again. I much prefer a Dungeons and Dragons type wizard, which is emulated in games like Neverwinter Nights and BG, etc. 

    • 744 posts
    May 2, 2017 3:10 PM PDT

    I put a post in the below link, but the convo needs to go in the caster thread and this threads looks good. I would like to continue the conversation here with what I mention in the below post.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6068/live-stream-05-02-feedback/view/post_id/110169

     

    I like the concept of defensive mental state, be intresting and more involved then just a self buff, we still want self buffs tho :P

     


    This post was edited by Zeem at May 2, 2017 3:11 PM PDT
    • 492 posts
    October 29, 2017 10:14 PM PDT

    I've seen several comments similar to Zeems about "the Wizard being one shotted" another thread is here, but this thread more appropriate to my comments. 

    Not happy with what ive seen in stream so far

    And as a Wizard I must say I disagree with this "They shouldn't be able to be one shotted" theory.  "With Great power comes Great Responsibility" and the Wizard has great power! In exchange for this they should indeed be a "Glass Cannon", and it is there responsibility to KNOW this and treat it as such. The truth is The Wizard should NEVER take a hit, so the "One Shot" is irrelevant.

    In these streams where the Wizard was one shotted I propose to you the Wizard made the mistakes (I'm also basing this on the assumption that the Wizard at this stage of game construction had the spells at there disposal, they DID have root, I don't know about snare)

    As a Wizard I had two LAWS that were not to be broken, if they were, it was my fault

     1) Distance is my friend! (most wizard spells have a range of over 100 feet.. USE THIS, BE at 100 feet, or at least 50 to 75)

     2) The Wizard MUST be prepared for a Critical Hit at any time. (you WILL pull agro at time of Crits, you must be ready to give the Agro back To the Tank)

     

    If you have played a Wizard you know you don't Nuke at the start of the battle, the Tank needs to build Agro first. This does not mean you don't CAST, this time needs to be spent preparing the Mob for possible Critical hit that WILL pull agro expecially if it's on your first nuke (unless your waiting to long in which case your not maximizing your damage output) This mob needs to be snared (I didn't notice snare on them in the streams) If a druid, or Shaman or other was not snaring I always would, I didn't Nuke until it was snared. Then IF I got lucky and my first hit was a Critical hit, and the Snared mob started toward me, the distance came into play. If I'm huddled in the group 10 feet away then I would still get hit, the Tank needed time to assess the situation, turn and go after the MOB (he can't catch it if its not snared). My Nukes have a range of 100+ feet. Assuming the area was safe behind the group (in many of the cases we seen it was) I would be back 50+ feet before I cast the Nukes... IF I Crit. and the SNARED mob started heading to me at 50-75 feet I would have had time to Root, Tank would have had time to Taunt and the Wizard never should have taken a hit in the first place.

     

    So defensive abilities I would NEED

    Snare, Root (things can still get tricky if you can't get distance)

     

    of course shields, Runes, Concussion, are all nice, and Shadow Step is great in outdoors PVP...

    But the main defense is Distance, Snare and Root

      

    I had a Guild Leader in WoW that had a saying

    "If the Tank Dies, it's the Healers Fault"

    "If the Healer Dies, it's the Tanks Fault"

    "If the DPS Dies, it's there Own Fault"

    Us DPS learned to mitigate our own agro and not take the Healers attention off the Tank. I learned NOT to take a hit in the first place!

     

    Pantheon, MAY change all that, I know

    • 325 posts
    October 29, 2017 10:46 PM PDT

    I like the idea of a more defensive/cc oriented sub class wizard who sacrafices damage to survive a bit better, perhaps in a particularly dangerous area.

    the frost line of spells are cool for this sort of thing. 

    • 326 posts
    October 31, 2017 4:50 PM PDT

    I like the thunder stun option.
    There comes a time when a wizzy could be hit, being by a roamer or over agro.
    The wizzy should have some form of defense to get the mob to focus else where; the consussion would reflect that
    Then if a wizzy activly engages (plays solo for example) then it comes down to a means to resist summons or avoid getting hit
    Resist summons is easely a magic aspect. As such a wizzy would build resistance ability.
    To avoid getting hit borders on enchanter buff business. Then the snare options is more closer to ranger options, if you want to get original.
    Spawning short lived objects is more in the realm of the magician

    Trying to resolve this issue, here are a few concepts I just thought off:
    Vibration of Earth, to get mob off balance (AoE?, debuff?)
    Change local Atmosphere, around wizzy to avoid gettting hit
    Random short distant gates (the old fade), move without movement
    Fading, no movement at all, just be permeable
    Rift Bubbles, Mob hits elsewhere (or by that even mob hitting itself)
    Consistancy, mob itself gets permeable
    Blinding, obviously affect light
    Segmentation, dismembered body of the wizard (rifted body)
    Flexibility, the latex wizzy
    Blend, in with the background
    Dimensional, 2 dimension wizzy
    Spiral, the single axis rotating wizard (end up facing random direction)
    ... anyways... if you think long enough you can think of more solutions




    • 152 posts
    October 31, 2017 4:57 PM PDT
    Nice post, Rydan. Some clever and original ideas in there. I particularly like the fade and 2D wizard ones.
    • 2561 posts
    December 7, 2017 10:45 AM PST

    Nolaen said:

    So what would you like to see as defensive abilities for a wizard?

     

    Already mentioned was some kind of short distance teleport spell like Fade/ Shadowstep in EQ. That alone wont be enough though.

    The Wizard always had Runes to cover his skin and absorb blows and magic. The Wizard epic had a Klickeffect Force Shield, back then a huge Damage absorb. Id like something like this again.

     

    Some kind of Aggro losing Ability would also be good like Jolt / Concussion spell line. Maybe 1 Big cooldown Jolt that resets aggro and a small one that can be cast inbetween.

     

    Whats your ideas?

     

    Got ambushed?  Root and back up far enough to snare,  so if root breaks (as it usually did in the early days)   you can back up and root again.  Don't hit snare when you are close to the mob,  you can end up snaring yourself. :P      Stun (Concussion) is a good spell for healer mobs,  stops their casting for a bit.  Specially when there are two healer mobs,  they heal each other.