Forums » Crafting

discovery via experimentation vs found/bought/taught recipes

    • 81 posts
    February 13, 2017 10:36 AM PST

    Hello,

     

    In the topics i have read about crafting, people talk about taught recipes (via a trainer), found recipes (via a chest for example) and learnt recipes (via leveling)

     

    I'd like to add a new possiblity. One thing i liked in other games was the possibility to learn new crafting recipes via experimentation.

     

    For example, you gather certain mats with something in your mind, open an experimentation tab, put the mats in it, and if your recipe is correct, you successfully unlock this new recipe in your log.

     

    I think this way of learning recipes is among the best ones, because it's a lot of fun, and it may involve good cooperation between players (recipe idea exchanges, trading mats to test things, etc). It's also a good way to make people use their logic to beat the game, which is like a minigame.

     

    Some people might say it's too easy this way : once someone finds a recipe, it is highly possible that the whole server is aware of it a few days later. But i'd say it still adds to the game, because you'll never be sure everything has been found, thus making people experiment over and over again, and making people feel richer with their mats because they would feel : "damn maybe i can do something really good with all this". And making a hard recipe only possible via experimentation, could on the contrary add to the difficulty and the flavor of this game.

     

    Maybe a mix of methods could be considered for recipes, but common logic tells me the easiest and the most logic recipes should be found via experimentation. Looking for weeks and traveling the world to learn to craft a basic sword with steel, or to make a bow with a rope and a wood branch wouldn't be satisfying. This is where experimentation should take its place.

     

    Experimentation for alchemy would fit very well for example.

     

    On the contrary, master recipes for epic equipment should be next to impossible, or completely impossible to find via experimentation IMO.

     

    I also think some tools should be used to make intermediate mats before crafting high-end items, and these  should be found via experimenting the use of this tool on several mats. Indeed, you don't really need a specific scroll to learn that using a hammer on a nail sticks two planks together.

     

    What do you think of this ?

     

     

    Cheers,

     

    Gideon


    This post was edited by Gideon at February 13, 2017 10:47 AM PST
    • 2575 posts
    February 13, 2017 4:45 PM PST

    It's an interesting idea for sure, but I think all recipes will be listed on fan sites sooner than later. I don't think it's possible to keep things hidden just because people haven't found a recipe in this day and age as that kind of information is often datamined from patches etc. 

    • 6 posts
    February 14, 2017 10:35 AM PST

    a concept that could be similar to this could be about "knowing the recipe is half the way"

     

    recipe could be " mix this mushroom with that herb in a water flask to create that potion"

     

    however, what is not said is how you do it or how many mushroom per herb you will need for an optimal result.

     

    as said, result could vary if for example you grind the herb in a mortar instead of adding the herb directly. using an alambic could in the same way change the result.

     

    then a basic recipe could lead to different result depending on how you proceed. of course, tool like the mortar or the alambic could be accessible only when you reach a given level in alchemy.

    be noted that using different tool could change the amount of ingredient needed as well.

     

    that way people could experiment not only by mixing random ingredient but by tweaking the amount of ingredient or change the method and tool used to process them.

     

    • 4416 posts
    February 14, 2017 11:02 AM PST

    This reminds me of Skyrim's alchemy system, which I think is ingenious. Basically each ingredient has 4 qualities, but all of them are unknown to you at the start. You can actually eat the herb or mushroom or whatever it may be to discover one of the properties. It actually gives you a brief, weakened version of whatever buff/debuff that may be. The other qualities are "unlocked" (for lack of a better word) by just combining the ingredients together. Once you know the properties of the ingredients, you can better predict what kind of potion you are making.

    • 759 posts
    February 14, 2017 11:26 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    This reminds me of Skyrim's alchemy system, which I think is ingenious. Basically each ingredient has 4 qualities, but all of them are unknown to you at the start. You can actually eat the herb or mushroom or whatever it may be to discover one of the properties. It actually gives you a brief, weakened version of whatever buff/debuff that may be. The other qualities are "unlocked" (for lack of a better word) by just combining the ingredients together. Once you know the properties of the ingredients, you can better predict what kind of potion you are making.

     

    Have to agree Baz that this was a fun system.

    I have always been fascinated by systems that require subsystems.  An example of potion lore would be:

    You gather various red herbs, roots, etc to create a base of red elixir (Red has regenative or healing aspects)

    You blend this with a crushed infused gem (each gem has separate properties based on rarity and color) infusing the gems requires enchanting.  

    Last step is combining said ingredients in required station with % change of rare etc plus discovery.

     

    I like it when it involves other skills or crafts in the game.

    • 22 posts
    February 14, 2017 1:23 PM PST

    Would a system like this guarantee success? What I mean is if I take an iron ingot and a hammer am I guaranteed to get a nail or is there just a potential for the nail. This would mean if *I* failed but someone else was successful I would know it could still be unlocked with an improved insight, crafting skill, quality of mat or something of the like. 

    • 6 posts
    February 14, 2017 2:16 PM PST

    in my opinion, basic object would be guaranteed sucess. however combinaison of basic object would lead to a great number of possibilities.

     

    taking a dager for example. it would be based on three element: the hilt, the guard and the blade.

     

    the hilt could be made by a wood craftman (with possibility to add some leather strap made by a leather armor crafter to have a better grip)

    the guard could be made by a blacksmith (wrong choice imo. still would increase durability and defense a little) but could also be made by a jeweler (if we assume that the guard could be later enchanted to give the weapon additionnal bonus depending on the enchantment and the guard size. A bigger guard could store a stronger enchantment, but would bring a maniability or attack speed malus.)

    the blade would be made by the blacksmith. he would be able to decide the thickness of the blade to make a dagger, a poignard or a misericorde.

    the one finishing the dagger would be able to decide the design according to the playstyle of the buyer.

     

    if we count 2 design of hilt (wood or wood+leather) , 6 design of guard (small, medium and big for both blacksmith and jeweler) and 3 design of blades (thin, average or thick),  then that would make 36 different design of daggers all with different stats. and it's not counting difference due to metals, elements quality and number of possible enchantment.

    that would make it possible for people to make weapons that are theorically unique.

     

    the "experimenting" part would then be about finding the combinaison that would suit well with a given playstyle.

    • 16 posts
    February 14, 2017 5:54 PM PST

    I dig everything about the OP's concept here. I also think RNG discovery while crafting or while adventuring should be a thing. Maybe you find a piece of paper on a mountain somewhere, that isn't always there, much like the devs are going to have class quests that take you somewhere special. Have a basic recipe list that can be improved upon, and special recipes that are discoverable somehow, and limited in some way to not just have every crafter on the planet have it. Fair? No. Immersive? Awesome? Yes.

    • 81 posts
    February 15, 2017 3:44 AM PST

    Lazzul said:

    Would a system like this guarantee success? What I mean is if I take an iron ingot and a hammer am I guaranteed to get a nail or is there just a potential for the nail. This would mean if *I* failed but someone else was successful I would know it could still be unlocked with an improved insight, crafting skill, quality of mat or something of the like. 

     

    I think this can be discussed upon. The system i am talking about could be more complex, involving success/fail chances, and an item quality system, making seasoned crafters make better items with the same recipe (like in Wurm Online). But i think in case the recipe is correct but the craft fails, some clue should appear to indicate that something was nearly crafted successfully, else experimentation would be a pain : players would think one recipe doesn't exist, whereas it does. Some message like "damn that could have worked" popping on the screen would be better, or maybe creating a failed item, that do not have the real item's properties, but looks a bit like the item it was supposed to be.

     

    Experimentation doesn't either prevent some crafting level requirements, popping on the screen something like : "i'm not sure how to do that" when your crafting level is too low.

     


    This post was edited by Gideon at February 15, 2017 3:50 AM PST
    • 165 posts
    February 15, 2017 10:14 AM PST

    * you smelt 1 iron ore* "you recieve a small amount of iron"

    * you refine a small amount of iron* "too little useful iron is recovered, your iron is lost"

    *you refine 2 small amounts of iron* "you create a small iron ingot"

    *you refine 3 small amounts of iron* "you creat an iron ingot"

    *you refine 4 small amounts of iron* "you create a large iron ingot"

    *you refine 5 small amounts of iron* "you create a large iron ingot, residual iron is lost"

    * you smelt coal* "you have recovered some carbon"

    *you refine 3 amounts of carbon* "you create a small bar of carbon"

    *you combine a small ingot of iron and a small bar of carbon* "you get a small amount of useless alloy"

    *you combinbe 2 small ingots of iron and a small bar of carbon* "you get a small amount of useless alloy"

    * you combine 3 small ingots of iron and a small bar of carbon* "you create a small bar of steel"

    You get the idea.  Add numerous additions such as differing amounts of nickel, mithril, what have you to creat alloys with different properties.  Hard steel, holds it's edge, perfect for hand to hand combat weapons, not to mention harvesting tools.  Softer steel, not as useful for weapons, but easily manipulated into armor.  Mithril steel properties of steel but will also accept rune augmentation.  Pure Mithril, can be magically enhanced, takes no damage in battle.

    Say you find a small lockbox in the depths of a dungeon.  You have your local friendly rogue pick the lock, (he has mastered lock picking hasn't he?, otherwise the contents might be lost), you discover a map that refers to a forge of unimagineable heat, located ironically in a land of frost and ice, in the margins you see a list of material, 4 bars of hardened steel, 1 bar of soft steel,1 bar of enhanced mithril, a pouch of diamond dust "must be crafted by a master smith wielding a coldain hammer blessed by druid".  What is enhanced mithril?  It hasn't been discovered yet.  Is it discoverable?  I say yes, but unlikely.  You can make a thousand attempts with differing combinations, and not be successful.  Or, you can go to a grandmaster trainer.  He tells you that yes it can be forged, but only with great difficulty.  You must hone your skills.  You must master the forge, "become one with it" learn to anticipate complications before they occur.  "When you reach this point come back to me.  Then, and only then, will I give you the knowledge that will allow you to forge enhanced mithril."  Do you take a stab at getting lucky with the combinations, probably for awhile, but mithril isn't easy to come by and you are losing patience.  *You kneel in front of the grandmaster*  "Teach me what I need to know so that I might one day forge enhanced mithril."  If you're lucky along the way you pick up the skills to make the coldain hammer, befriend a druid skilled enough to bless said hammer, or at least acquire an item to sacrifice to the druid diety to enhance your hammer.  Don't forget to find a jeweler to create diamond dust for you. Of course there are rumors of diamond dust a plenty at the bottom of the diamond mines worked by cave trolls in the whispering lands, no small task for a hardy group of adventurers, but you had always planned a trip there looking for the rare perfect diamond for another project...

    A scenario to consider.  It's just an idea but it provides options for chance, skill, adventure.  Who said crafting was dull?

    This ends my tangent, hopefully I made a point, maybe two, in there somewhere!

    *edit: "you have become better at proofreading"

             "you have beomce better at proofreading 2"


    This post was edited by Chimerical at February 15, 2017 10:28 AM PST
    • 415 posts
    February 19, 2017 6:57 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    It's an interesting idea for sure, but I think all recipes will be listed on fan sites sooner than later. I don't think it's possible to keep things hidden just because people haven't found a recipe in this day and age as that kind of information is often datamined from patches etc. 

    it is true. The days that there was no alakhazzam or  eqtraders are over and any new items will be posted the day they're found.  In eq1's initial crafting system it was you tried something and if it worked you got something. Initially, there was no message to give an indication that there was no item to be made with that combination of ingredients.  It just failed.  Getting things combined was just trial and error and getting skilled in any trade skill was near impossible.

    I hope that trade skilling and mastery of it is going to be super hard and not for the faint of heart.

    Additionally, I would like to see that the system implemented will have the ability to grow over time unlike eq1 where the max cap was 300.


    This post was edited by Durp at February 19, 2017 6:58 PM PST