Forums » Crafting

Which Games Should We Model Crafting After?

    • 68 posts
    February 19, 2018 7:28 AM PST

    Echoing what was stated elsewhere in this thread; I totally agree that a robust crafting/economy leads to longevity in MMOs.  Star Wars Galaxies was by far the best crafting I have ever experienced and I would love to see Pantheon adopt a similar system.

    We still do not know much about how complex Pantheon's crafting system will be.  Hopefully a lot of thought is being put into it, because history has taught us, that it really will make or break the game.

    • 3008 posts
    February 19, 2018 8:21 AM PST

    Trustar said:

    Echoing what was stated elsewhere in this thread; I totally agree that a robust crafting/economy leads to longevity in MMOs.  Star Wars Galaxies was by far the best crafting I have ever experienced and I would love to see Pantheon adopt a similar system.

    We still do not know much about how complex Pantheon's crafting system will be.  Hopefully a lot of thought is being put into it, because history has taught us, that it really will make or break the game.

    If you haven't already, check out the interview I did with Pantheon's crafting dev, Corey LeFever. He was behind Vanguard's crafting system and definitely puts an insane amount of thought into every aspect of Pantheon's crafting system. He shares some of his insight here:

    This post was edited by Bazgrim at February 19, 2018 8:21 AM PST
    • 17 posts
    February 23, 2018 6:43 PM PST


    I liked Everquest's the most from the beginning... where to make a tiger raptor skin belt, I'd have to go kill tiger raptors to get hides (or buy them from other players etc) while shouting that I would buy the yew leaves you could forage in the zone, and dumpster diving the vendors near by for the ore I needed that people would sell to NPCs after exiting a dungeon., then go make subcomponents like studs or bracing etc. and then drag and drop everything in a bag and hit combine.  It made you pay attention, the components were realistic and kind of unique.  You had to have the right molds or patterns and tools...   There were all sorts of different furs and pelts you could make stuff with, from High Quality Lion Skins to Low Quality Wolf Skins etc.  I even had a page on EQTraders once upon a time where I had made a list of all the uses for different pelts in the game.  Then later like in planes of power they just made a bunch of hides and skins that were just cash loot and ruined the whole "everything is useful" method they had for various animal parts.  

    The downside was, besides failing, and besides sometimes it taking 200 combines to get a skill up, was all the drag-and-dropping, sometimes like 7 different items for each combine, and if you got it wrong you'd lose all your materials.  


    I didn't like the generic crafting system you got later with every MMO since, where there were tiers of materials and all the items for all the tradeskills were made just using the raw materials gathered from nodes.  The later crafting in EQ was like this, and it was all drop down menus etc.  I don't mind nodes as much vs. killing monsters for materials, but every blacksmithing recipe in EQ2 for example, you just need the basic ore for that tier and a fuel like coal, and you can sit and max out your crafting.  They made it so you got more experience from doing quests than from grinding at the forge.  You used to get bonus exp the first time you made an item, so it encouraged making one of each thing if you could.  Later, you just did writs and maybe a crafting timeline for an xpac and never even made any weapons to put on the market.  

    I'd rather do it the old way with the drag and dropping, than sit at a crafting station and mash the same buttons mindlessly for 5 hours while I watch netflix.  

    I liked the randomness of the materials in SWG, that made it a lot of fun for armor and weaponsmithing.  Finding an amazing polymer or metal and then setting up a harvester to gather it was a lot of fun.  

    I also liked how in EQ2 and Vanguard at one point, there were like 4 different tiers of items you could make.  Like, crude, regular, fine and pristine or something like that, I think vanguard was class A, B, C, or D.  I think they stopped it in EQ2 to save room in their item database (and because they dumbed everything down), but I liked having the possibility of screwing up an item and getting a lower quality one vs. just making the same item every time.  I guess that is sort of like the SWG crafting system too, although that one had a lot more math and more variables involved.  

    • 11 posts
    February 28, 2018 2:15 AM PST
    Vanguard crafting was amazing, model it like that please!
    • 4 posts
    March 1, 2018 12:06 PM PST

    EQ2 is my favorite loved the crafting tabels at the guild hall 

    • 3 posts
    March 3, 2018 11:31 AM PST

    I have played nearly every MMO out there, and I can say hands down that SWG crafting had it right. The simple fact that crafting mats had stats that affected the overall outcome of the final product made it a game unto itself.

    This means that getting a 'sword o' doom' from one crafter could be better or worse than another crafters. It really allowed players to focus on mat gathering and the crafting aspect of the game AS the game. It means that for players who invested the time to get good at crafting, and who spent the time to look for better mats were able to make better items. This drove the player based economy in a way that I have yet to see duplicated.

    If you want 'community' in this game, I can tell you that it existed in SWG. I had an entire network of 'prospectors', people who would survey different worlds/areas for me so that I could always be up to date on what the current materials available were, and where they were at. I had to barter with players to use their 'plots' so that I could erect mining nodes for those resources, or some of them mined it themselves and then bartered those materials with me for cash or weapons. I played SWG with a group of about 8 people and we all formed the biggest (and best) weapons facility on the server. It was a blast to do. Teamwork in the extreme and it was such a pleasant change from 'go here, kill this' gameplay. don't get me wrong, I love slaying baddies and exploring, but it was nice to have another option for fun, rewarding gameplay.

    Vanguard and Horizons also had excellent crafting but still does not hold a candle to SWG.

    • 623 posts
    March 3, 2018 11:43 AM PST

    Grellk said:

    This means that getting a 'sword o' doom' from one crafter could be better or worse than another crafters.

    I'm not a fan of this type of design.  I'd like to see a player holding a "sword o' doom" and know what that is without having to inspect them to see if they have a good "sword o' doom" or a bad "sword o' doom". 


    This post was edited by philo at March 3, 2018 11:43 AM PST
    • 2 posts
    March 4, 2018 2:16 PM PST

    I personally liked original EQ2 Crafting system.  It added so interaction instead of the norm of gather materials and craft with the proper tools and hope the random number generator would be nice to you.  You used various abilitys to increase the how close you were to be finished (progress).

    As well as abilities to increases the overall "quality" (crude, shaped, regular, pristine) of the item..  For example if I was attempting to craft an 8 slot backpack, provided I wasn't horrible and failed outright you would craft some sort of item. The crude would only be a 4 slot. The shaped would be a 6 slot. The regular would be an 8 slot and the pristine would be a 10 slot. The newer crafting system with EQ2 you either make the item or you get back some of the components depending how close you were to making the actual items.  Some items with the new eq2, you could only make the item or fail.

    On occassion you would have to preventive measure to reduce the risk of failing.  Sure, there was a risk of dieing/taking damage or even failing the combine if you mistakenly used the wrong ability multiple times while taking preventive measures but it does have some reality to it.   

    The one thing I didn't like about EQ2 crafting is coming from EQ1 crafting, is you must know the recipe before you can craft it.  You were forced to learn the recipes (quest reward, loot, vendor bought) before you can even attempt to make an item.  EQ1 allowed for experimentation and yes in game did provide random items "books, npcs that guided you on what was needed to experiment to learn these recipes." But, it wasn't a requirement. Especially, recipes used to the higher end stuff.  It also eventually, prevented you from randomly mixing stuff that wouldn't make anything useful together which was a plus.

    • 3 posts
    March 11, 2018 12:12 AM PST

    TO be Honest, I didn't get time in the early games like EQ or SWG. I grew up on the fast track systems in games like WoW, where it was really just a mild side time sink, which was quite dissapointing. Then I got into FFXIV where I fell in love with a complex crafting system. It had it's issues for sure, like how you needed to essentially max all crafts to even be good at one or two, but I enjoyed how it really became a system that in itself you could focus on. I loved the idea of being able to simply be a Crafter, or at the least, a crafter with a side job of adventurer :D 

    many of the systems discussed in this thread sound really good, and I would like to see many aspects of whats discussed in the crafting system. I believe that specialization should have it's rewards, and encourage players to follow a trade. I also think it would be nice to have enough flexibility If you chose, so someone could say, do the basic essentials in many systems, but not excel. jack of all trades, master of none kind of idea. The adventurer who learns how to take care of his gear, but can never really get past your standard solid sword with a keen edge.

    I love the idea of a complex resource gathering system, but I worry about the possibility of too much competition in node and resource acquisition. I can't speak from experience, but I had heard horror stories about players dominating resources in SWG, and I'd hate to see the playerbase being divided due to massive land/resource grabs due to a system that rewards selfishness too much. That being said, they were only stories told to me by others, So I can't say for sure, but it brings to my mind the idea that there needs to be a balance between equal resource acquisition, and a healthy competitive market.

    Since I tend to craft heavily in most MMO's I play, I favor the idea of crafting being an intregal part of the game, and having it a necessary aspect of end game gear. I always hated the feeling that I worked so hard to craft X items, only to find out that they were really a tier below the drops people got in random dungeon runs. crafting should be on par at a bare minimum with world drops, and if it was integrated into those same world drops, it would be amazing.

    A good example of this would be an enhancement system where end game gear wouldn't be at its fullest capacity unless it was also worked on by a master craftsman. adding to that rare materials you would have to quest and research to find. like a rare mineral that can only be found in specific caves in specific regions, and it has to be melded by the master crafstman. then the weapon needs to be smelted in some forge of the gods whilst holding off waves of subterrian minions bent on keeping you from doing it...stuff like that. Epic gear would end up being the responsibility of a guild in cases like that, not just a single players acquisition for that day.

    Either way, I want an involved system that rewards time and specilization, whilst keeping a healthy balance between player access and competition for resources. I want to be able to create a character specifically for the sole purpose of crafting, knowing that my journey will be just as interesting and involved as it would be if I chose the path of adventurer...or perhaps my craft leads me to that adventure. I have to discover that rare mineral after all...

    This post was edited by temjiu at March 11, 2018 12:16 AM PST
    • 8 posts
    March 13, 2018 11:29 AM PDT

    Most of the mmo's I have played have had crafting that was at best moderately interesting. That was perhaps because of no chance of failure which could also represent loss of materials.

    DAoC on the other hand had a few key concepts that made crafting far more involved and interesting. Each result not only had a chance to fail or succeed, each failure had a chance to loose some materials but not an extravegant amount IIRC.  Successful crafted items had variable quality levels. Qualtity levels ranged from 88% qual to 100% qual (aka MP or Masterpiece). Anyone could skill up to such a point as to successfully craft something about 95% of the time but it may take hours and hours and hundreds of attempts to get MP legs or MP boots. It was not a system for the faint of heart and took serious effort to create a full armor set of MP.

    When Spellcrafting gems were applied to modify the stats, there was an opurtunity to overcharge the item. If you failed, things blew up. MP quality level gear could hold more stats and had better odds of not blowing up if you wished to chance overcharging. Most everything else about DAoC crafting was on par with many other older mmos.


    • 23 posts
    March 13, 2018 2:21 PM PDT

    I really really got into crafting in EQ2 -- not at first LOL -- it WAS awful -- tedious, complicated --  just awful...

    and YES the chemitry table or forge could kill you LOL ...  but ...

    then they changed it --- took ALL the intermediate steps out --  sages no longer needed ink and paper to scribe spells, woodworkers didn't need to first have rough wood and then refine it down, alchemists didn't need to have bottles or vials to make poisons ...  and so forth ....

    AFTER that, I was a huge crafter ---

    EQ2 was my first serious MMO and I loved the crafting ( tried EQ's but never could figure it out, WoW's is just too easy and boring, never played Vanguard's but everyone says it was great, Rift's was ok too, a lot like LotRO imo -- yes I tried it there too ) --- 

    just please please ----- NO intermediates ...  I will not craft if the game has them ( just me I'm strange; had a very good friend in EQ2 who loved it from the very start and was a big crafter in Vanguard)


    This post was edited by Einelinea at March 13, 2018 2:21 PM PDT