Bazgrim said:Iksar said:I am not 100% on the lore but I imagine race relations are a bit more tenuous and drawing a parallel to the real world doesn't quite work. We are all of the human race; we don't have anything quite like ogres or elves, yet we historically have distrusted even other humans upon first contact. From my understanding, many of the races are relatively new to the world of Terminus which would make relations even less likely. If we were going real world comparison, consider the resistance to other cultures from ancient societies when introduced to other human civilizations which still ripple into the present.
I tend to agree with this. Each of these races are from DIFFERENT PLANETS. Not just different parts of the same planet. There's a lot of barriers to overcome. Especially since they haven't been together in Terminus for very long. As I said before, I would expect there to be some diversity in some of the cities. For example, dwarves that make a living as blacksmiths or bartenders in the Human city. Or humans that make a living in the Elf city. There's plenty of possibilities for some diversity that make sense. But I would expect that to be the exception rather than the rule.
The races still have alliances and several of them have been there for a very long time. I'm not talking scar quarter in the elf city, I'm talking human quarter in the dwarf city. So long as there's lore for it, I have no problem.
Bazgrim said:Sorry, but I don't see how that's any better. There would have to be some detriment to starting there or else almost everyone would just start there. And then that's just completely counterintuitive. That's what happened with Crescent Reach in EQ when Serpent's Spine was released. The unique starting cities still existed and players had the option of starting there, but CR was just more convenient, so there was no real reason to start in your home city. Even if you can somehow make it work with the lore, hubs tend to dumb down gameplay.
Where you see dumbing down of gameplay, I see "letting people play with their friends".
Where you see dumbing down of gameplay, I see "making sure new players can have fun".
In a broader sense, racially pure cities don't make much of any sense to me. I can think of very few examples in the real world, and even fewer in fantasy fiction. Where there were restricted cities, they were the exception rather than the rule. Sure, if two races are historically enemies, I wouldn't expect there to be any signifigant presence of Race A in Race B's city.
But if Elves, Humans, and, say Dwarves all get along relatively well, there would be pockets here and there of elves and dwarves within the human city. Perhaps not a whole Dwarven Quarter, but maybe a couple city blocks worth of neighborhood where most of the Dwarves that have decided to live within the human city would naturally gravitate to. There would be a smattering of Elven merchants, Dwarven armorsmiths and day laborers, etc. I'd find such a city way more realistic than a pure as snow human city where there are literally no other race allowed to live. This city has been here for years, centuries perhaps, before my character is "born" into it... it just defies belief that it would be a purely human enclave.
Sure, maybe the Dark Myr might have a strictly regimented, racially pure city... but it would be the execption, rather than the rule.
--Gray
gray808 said:But if Elves, Humans, and, say Dwarves all get along relatively well, there would be pockets here and there of elves and dwarves within the human city. Perhaps not a whole Dwarven Quarter, but maybe a couple city blocks worth of neighborhood where most of the Dwarves that have decided to live within the human city would naturally gravitate to. There would be a smattering of Elven merchants, Dwarven armorsmiths and day laborers, etc. I'd find such a city way more realistic than a pure as snow human city where there are literally no other race allowed to live. This city has been here for years, centuries perhaps, before my character is "born" into it... it just defies belief that it would be a purely human enclave.
Sure, maybe the Dark Myr might have a strictly regimented, racially pure city... but it would be the execption, rather than the rule.
--Gray
If you go back and re-read what I said on the previous page, I said pretty much the exact same thing - I totally agree with that. There should of course be dwarven blacksmiths that work in the elven city and other things like that.
But that's a far cry from any sort of hub. I'm not saying that friends shouldn't be able to play together. There's nothing stopping anyone from making the journey to another city. So yes, having the ability to just start together is dumbing it down. It's an easy button. I'm not some old jaded guy that wants the little whippersnappers to get off my lawn. I'm looking at it from a design standpoint. There very well could be some racial abilities from different races that synergize really well. If you want to have the luxury of those synergies at a low level, you should have to work for it. You should have to risk venturing off into the world at a low level. Again, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. But the challenge of doing so is way more memorable and way more important than just clicking a button for convenience. That's classic risk vs. reward. If you're not willing to undertake that challenge, that's okay - either roll the same race as your friend or wait until you're high enough level. I'm not against friends playing together. I have several family members that I plan on playing with. It's almost guaranteed they will play different races than me and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I look forward to having to go seek them out. I'm simply discouraging convenience where it's not needed. In fact, as I said, having the luxury of different racial synergies at such a low level is detrimental to the integrity of the design.
@gray808 et al
When they created EverQuest, they had a tag-line
"You're in our world now!"
From the FAQ, we see that FACTION and ALIGNMENT are to be important...
"... To have an open, living, breathing world, it is important to have dynamic faction relationships between the denizens of the world..."
From the TENETS and PANTHEON DIFFERENCE we see that the whole aim of Pantheon is to create a vibrant world, full of various monsters, races, factions and peoples. They are all living their lives, following their own paths ... the full tapestry of things that make up a living, breathing world!
We, the adventurers, are the interlopers!
So, here I am...
.... perhaps reborn into the body of an Elf, I see elven lore and consider my possible roles,
.... perhaps Wizard, wait, no ... Enchanter, good - but not suiting my lust for power ... ah! Summoner!
And so, my Elven Summoner is reborn ....
.... laden with the history of the Elves,
.... encumbered by my hatred of the vile Skar, bloated Ogres and cruel gnomes Dark Myr.
.... bolstered by the shining intellect and supreme smugness of the Elves
Now, which way is Thronefast ....
... a letter from Esmeralda said that is where she is,
.... oh good grief!
.... wonder where I can buy a horse?
Evoras, wonders if the world itself is part of the challenge...
Evoras said:@gray808 et al
When they created EverQuest, they had a tag-line
"You're in our world now!"From the FAQ, we see that FACTION and ALIGNMENT are to be important...
"... To have an open, living, breathing world, it is important to have dynamic faction relationships between the denizens of the world..."
From the TENETS and PANTHEON DIFFERENCE we see that the whole aim of Pantheon is to create a vibrant world, full of various monsters, races, factions and peoples. They are all living their lives, following their own paths ... the full tapestry of things that make up a living, breathing world!
We, the adventurers, are the interlopers!
So, here I am...
.... perhaps reborn into the body of an Elf, I see elven lore and consider my possible roles,
.... perhaps Wizard, wait, no ... Enchanter, good - but not suiting my lust for power ... ah! Summoner!And so, my Elven Summoner is reborn ....
.... laden with the history of the Elves,
.... encumbered by my hatred of the vile Skar, bloated Ogres and cruel gnomes Dark Myr.
.... bolstered by the shining intellect and supreme smugness of the ElvesNow, which way is Thronefast ....
... a letter from Esmeralda said that is where she is,
.... oh good grief!
.... wonder where I can buy a horse?
Evoras, wonders if the world itself is part of the challenge...
Also, this. Thank you, Evoras. Your posts are always insightful. Your meticulous formatting amuses me, but it's cool haha <3
Formatting, spelling and grammar are important - they make posts easier to follow and let the reader concentrate on the substance more easily.
We are interlopers, as adventurers. We make our money and gain our levels by going to the dwellings, camps and towns of those that are racially or speciesly diverse and robbing and murdering them. Fortunately most games don't provide for raping them and killing their puppies and kittens. And these are the characters that consider themselves *good* - paladins, even. Let us not even consider what the evil types do!
I was over on mmorpg.com talking about development with Sovrath and Amathe. Together, they came up with a what I think is a great idea to navigate the issue of how friends can play together if their starting city/races are impossible/difficult to get to. I know this topic has been chewed on for awhile (perhaps this is even a non negociable issue), and personally I don't care if I'm with my friends from the get go, but for those who do, I think this idea was worth a share. Hopefully this is the correct thread to post this:
Amathe said:Here is one way to resolve the issue.
1. Let players start their character out in any city;
2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;
3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;
4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);
5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);
6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).
No fast travel required.
[Sovrath] I would say there shouldn't be a disguise but that the player has to sneak, hide, skulk in order to get around OR if there is a disguise then in certain instances there is a chance someone might see through it.
If someone is in a hostile city then the game play should reflect that. That could actually be very exciting.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/468588/starting-cities/p4#VHXVJH9r567lLrfu.99
If properly executed, this feeds back into the risk/reward system of Pantheon, and would honestly just be exciting to see or do.
A glaring issue with the above would be that not every race has every class. If you were a cleric and you started with a friend in the Skar or Gnome cities then you'd likely be a very long and likely dangerous journey away from access to any of your needed spells/abilities/trainers/quests. Another issue is what happens when you hit level 5 (or whatever point the disguise disappears)? If you started at the city of a hostile race then you now have no merchants to offload goods and run the risk of being murdered at every outpost/guarded choke/road patrol...or heaven forbid on respawn being bound close to the city.
I mean, yeah they could convey the serious dangers risked by doing such a start but it also affects other players should they try to group with someone with only their starter abilities/skills because it turns out too hard to make it all the way to their own races city at such a low level, especially when they don't even know the way.
Zuljan said:Amathe said:Here is one way to resolve the issue.
I'm of the belief that some issues should just be part of life in Pantheon and don't need resolved.
My hope is the Devs decide a player simply needs to weigh what is more important to them, immediately playing with friends, or being a race that by nature is kos to them.
Learning how to overcome this kos dilemma is emergent game play, why would we want them to "resolve" it?
I understand wanting to allow people to play together, but I'm really hoping for something akin to Vanguard - where each race (mostly) had their own starting city, and you could meet up with others from your continent as you moved into lower-mid level adventuring areas. Of course, once you got to each continent's major port you could go to the other continents, but the way content was laid out, there was plenty to do close to home, and you only switched continents if you wanted to.
I say this because I feel like it's really important that players have different experiences based on where they start their character. Not only does this add to replay value, it's a huge way to make the world feel bigger. Imagine meeting someone when you're close to cap and finding out that they took an entirely different path of content to get to where they are than you did. Now compare that to other games where everyone has all done the same dungeons, the same quests, the same instances. It's just... not as real.
Tahoe said: Due to the number of classes humans can play I am getting the feeling that they may be able to start in various areas. For lore based purposes a necro would not start in the same city as a paladin. It would be more likely that one of the perceived bad races would have an enclave of humans that broke away from Thronefast.
Agreed.
Kastor said: I hope each race can only start in their home cities. Adventuring to other areas and starting zones is high adventure! Many memories were made. Also, why couldn't a necro start in the same city as a paladin?? You think cities don't have dark areas, secrets. Etc.??
Also, we don't know anything about the Necromancer lore yet. Necromancers may not actually be considered an "evil" class. They may be mor neutral - tenders of the dead, keepers of spirits, mediums to the afterlife.
oneADseven said:An observation I made after looking at the race/class combinations: Ogres are limited to tank/healer, and Gnomes are limited to dps/control. Hopefully their cities are close to each other because they are the only 2 races limited to 2 archetypes, and they compliment each other perfectly for the full quaternity. Their cities being in close proximity would be very important for the beginning stages of the game since it would allow players that choose these races to experience the full suite of group roles. Ideally they would run into each other around level 10 or so when grouping becomes more important. It's basically yin and yang ... in archetype, and size. A small little detail like this could go a really long way ... the game is supposed to focus on class interdependance and the eventual union of these 2 races could blossom into thousands of long lasting friendships. The ogres would be able to provide every archetype that the gnomes are missing out on, and vice versa. Can anybody clarify where their starties cities are, relative to each other on the map?
Always love your posts...
And I agree to the codependency on these two races. I would simply LOVE to see SOMETHING that results in a combo race whereby a gnome rides an ogre ( see also, MasterBlaster from Thunderdome). Maybe not right now, but at a later time. Imagine a hybrid class that specs. in control and healing (druid?) and a race that is both an ogre and gnome? Am I crazy?
>Also, we don't know anything about the Necromancer lore yet. Necromancers may not actually be considered an "evil" class. They may be mor neutral - tenders of the dead, keepers of spirits, mediums to the afterlife.<
Indeed.
Is a necromancer that summons the spirits of the dead to fight for a good cause evil? Why? If you mention that he or she compels the spirits to his or her will - what makes you assume that the spirits have not all come willingly to serve the cause.
Is a paladin good - or is a paladin a fanatic one dimensional person that will do anything, however wrong, if it serves the cause? If I am a paladin of God A and blow myself up to kill 50 worshippers of God B am I good or evil? What if God A isn't exactly "good" and God B isn't exactly "evil". Is paladin status limited only to dedicated followers of "good" Gods. With dozens of races each with a long history and diverse cultures who is to say one is "good" and one is "evil".
Look at pet classes. If I compel innocent animals to serve my cause, and force them to die for a cause that isn't theirs, not really caring because I can always summon another and there is no real penalty for death of the animal - am I not more evil than any necromancer ever trained?
Nephretiti said:oneADseven said:An observation I made after looking at the race/class combinations: Ogres are limited to tank/healer, and Gnomes are limited to dps/control. Hopefully their cities are close to each other because they are the only 2 races limited to 2 archetypes, and they compliment each other perfectly for the full quaternity. Their cities being in close proximity would be very important for the beginning stages of the game since it would allow players that choose these races to experience the full suite of group roles. Ideally they would run into each other around level 10 or so when grouping becomes more important. It's basically yin and yang ... in archetype, and size. A small little detail like this could go a really long way ... the game is supposed to focus on class interdependance and the eventual union of these 2 races could blossom into thousands of long lasting friendships. The ogres would be able to provide every archetype that the gnomes are missing out on, and vice versa. Can anybody clarify where their starties cities are, relative to each other on the map?
As much as I like this idea, I also like Kastors comment where having to learn in your own city then adventuring to a new one- maybe at level 35-40- is important.
the tunnel was unique because DE's and humans were so close. I think they shoud be farther away to allow organic "tunnels" emerge all over the world, for specific combinations. however, I also want to see gnomes fighting in their gnomish way- without the need for perfect class interdependency by needing ogres near by. They should not need ogres near by but idealy be able to handle tough fights on their own. What if Ogres meat, erm, I mean meet halfling first? some symergy but not much, and then again the challenges should not be predicated on the "holy quarternity" by race, but rather by ability. Sure gnomes cant mezz, but they can root. they meet a halfing rogue with some mezz- awesome- two parts to CC with root and mez which is fine if the wizzy can blast them. if they get three of the holy quarternity by class, then they can put a log in to tank, so long as they can convince the monster to beat on the log.- or the mage can summon a wall to "tank" and there's your quarternity, in the gnomish way provided someone can bind wounds, and I am sure all casters will learn binding wounds, heh.
This makes other classes not needed per se, but allows the inclusion of other classes to change gameplay and makes the gameplay robust and engaging and challenging to the player for the player will have to adapt to the inclusion of the new class in their group.
