Forums » News and Announcements

Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • 173 posts
    February 18, 2018 12:23 PM PST

    Darch said:This is precisely what I was originally thinking, but then that logic is lost when you look at the classes like Bard and Druid... and even if you want to argue that the Bard, Druid and Ranger are "Neutral" in alignment, why can't everyone play them? 


    I think there's more to that.  For example, Gnomes are a neutral race...but have no attachment to the physical or natural worlds of Terminus.  Thus they cannot be Druids, Rangers, Warriors, or Rogues*.  This is also reasonably why they cannot be Shaman, which are different than Druids, but have a vaguely similiar sense of "non-arcane magics", probably in the nebulous realm of "spirit".

    *They CAN be Rogues, however, which really makes no sense.  I suspect the reason is that some people who are in charge of making these decisions want to play Gnome Rogues, and thus "Word of God" intervened and made it so.  :)  Otherwise, there would be Gnome Warriors as well...they would just suck.  Realistically, Gnomes should be neither of the two.  The idea that some Gnomes are effectively adventurers/treasure hunters doesn't really justify Rogues but not Warriors, and the implication that other classes are NOT adventurers/treasure hunters (for example, Enchanters) really makes no sense.

    Another oddity is that Gnomes can play all of the casters with the exception of Cleric, which makes sense under the idea that Clerics are devotees to the gods, but not under their original description (that the gods are gone and Clerics are essentially those that find leftover relics with some residue of god power in them and attune/absorb this power into themselves, essentially becoming demi-gods).

    .

    But yeah, at the end of the day, it kind of comes down to lots of elements going into each class, and a race should have met most/all of them before being able to have access to it.

    • 67 posts
    February 20, 2018 10:56 AM PST

    Renathras said:
    I think there's more to that.  For example, Gnomes are a neutral race...but have no attachment to the physical or natural worlds of Terminus.  Thus they cannot be Druids, Rangers, Warriors, or Rogues*.  This is also reasonably why they cannot be Shaman, which are different than Druids, but have a vaguely similiar sense of "non-arcane magics", probably in the nebulous realm of "spirit".

    *They CAN be Rogues, however, which really makes no sense.  I suspect the reason is that some people who are in charge of making these decisions want to play Gnome Rogues, and thus "Word of God" intervened and made it so.  :)  Otherwise, there would be Gnome Warriors as well...they would just suck.  Realistically, Gnomes should be neither of the two.  The idea that some Gnomes are effectively adventurers/treasure hunters doesn't really justify Rogues but not Warriors, and the implication that other classes are NOT adventurers/treasure hunters (for example, Enchanters) really makes no sense.

    Another oddity is that Gnomes can play all of the casters with the exception of Cleric, which makes sense under the idea that Clerics are devotees to the gods, but not under their original description (that the gods are gone and Clerics are essentially those that find leftover relics with some residue of god power in them and attune/absorb this power into themselves, essentially becoming demi-gods).

    Let's go back to the OP~

    Ceythos said:

    Gnomes only have spell casters and rogues available?

         This is reflective of their culture. They are nearly singularly focused in their pursuit of the arcane and hidden secrets. In lieu of training in martial skills they’ve put effort in creating or summoning golems, homunculi, and other forms of false life to protect their grand works

    Istuulamae said:

    Gnomes Gone Rogue?

    I invite everyone to review Ceythos’ OP. I’ll add to his comment that Gnomen arcane skills can be applied to physical stealth and hiding their form or disguising it. When you consider that they don’t have a fleshly body to hide in the same way an Elf might, it becomes a more natural possibility that some Gnomes  -- particularly those who are adventurous and wily -- to see their unique anatomy and stature as an advantage. An asset.

    Here again we asked the question of what is a unique but authentic way to have this race interact with the world. A small-framed, ethereal-bodied, diligent, adventurous and mystical being seemed to us to fit with the Rogue if we stepped outside of the obvious lines of their caster nature. Can you imagine a Gnome assassin darkly flashing between the shadows of a room? I can, and it keeps me up at night.

    Basically, it's not really that they are only arcanists. Rogues aren't something that requires, like you said, a 'connection to the physical or natural world.' All it requires is a keen mind, a dagger, and the willingness to abandon one's scruples to succeed. Their unique anatomy is, above all else, fragile. A Gnome can be a rogue because a rogue isn't supposed to be taking a dragon's talon to the face and shrug it off. A Warrior would be expected to do just that. Rogue is basically the only non-caster class they realistically could be, and they didn't want the race to be only casters. Though... now that I think of it, you could make a decent case for Bard depending on what exact roles they will be expected to fill.

    If you've read the above and still disagree that they shoudn't be Rogues... I don't know what to tell you. Those arguments convinced me.

    • 20 posts
    February 21, 2018 7:07 PM PST

    I was planning to devote to the Elves, but I am at very least goping to have two humans for Cleric and Paladin...I did read the notes, so perchance later or in a Elf driven expansion where a different kind of Elven coulture is explored allowing for it lore wise.  Not knowing the lore behind all, Shaman seems the most out of place for the more popular and conventinal Elves.

     

    The convention of Elves thus far is they are very strict, prideful and exclusionary, while they do tend to have their roots be more natural and that of in nature, when I see the term 'Shaman' I think of much more primal and unpolished practices bordering on the general conventions of heracy.  That unpolishedness of a people that live many times longer than humans would not stick with a practice that is so unrefined, that again is based on my own perception of 'Shaman', while the concept of a Paladin & Cleric seem much like they would very much fit socially.

     

    I fully understand the desire for Pantheon to be its own game and not meet every expectation, to that end provinding readily available lore material to support Pantheon's perception of the races will be vital to keeping the peace, involving it in quests, cities and the very fiber of their culture and the exchanges we have as players...  I know its all very complex and time consuming, but to tamper with convention, one must submit sufficient supporting information and details to satisfy the most skeptical of players.  Relying on the blanket explination of: "It's Pantheon thats why." will only get you so far, like when disproving or proving theories to law, or disproving laws to be repalced by theories or other laws, nothing will be accepted without sufficient evidence and support...In the world of gaming its just THAT important, which I am sure VR is fully aware and that very acceptance or dissapproval makes or breaks games.

    • 67 posts
    February 22, 2018 6:25 AM PST

    Shaman, traditionally, is a class that is relegated as a savage witchdoctor sort of aesthetic. This is amplified by the tendency for the 'less civilized' races to become Shaman, like the Ogre or Skar. However, this is only a traditional interpretation of the Shaman. I know you mention we must supply 'sufficient supporting information' to justify breaking from convention, but happily the Shaman and the Elf are both things we actually have a wealth of publically available information on.

    The Shaman is a casting class that doesn't draw on the same energies other casters draw upon. They draw their magic from the power of time, the power of ancestry, and a mastery of the past. The Elf is a race who is so concerned with their tragic past, their fallen ancestors and former glory that they turn their faces from the Gods themselves. The long-lived Elves, who can simply watch multiple generations of their foes be born, age, and die, having a mastery over their ancestry? I don't see that as innappropriate at all.

    People have complained about the Elf not having access to the Cleric. The explanation we received is that Elves are too preoccupied with their mortal affairs and their past that their relationship with their Gods are too strained to ordain any Clerics. With the Ashen Shaman who pull strength from the past they seek to remember and the Ember Druids who pull strength from the lands they seek to master for their people, what room in their society is there for Clerics?

    My argument, of course, hinges on the perception of Shaman as 'unrefined' and 'heretical' being unnecessary trappings. Yes, an Ogre Shaman would be those things, but the Elf Shaman can be something entirely different. Imagine an aged Elf with an intricately carved wooden staff, Elven script telling a tale of their history winding down it's length. The Elf is wearing light, mithril chainmail, and he often speaks in a forgotten tongue when he isn't paying attention. Any interaction with a shorter-lived race mentions that he might have interacted with one of their parents recently, and if they sneak up on him he might get their name and the name of a long-dead ancestor of theirs confused. This Elf is what I imagine when I think of 'Elven Shaman.'


    This post was edited by Darchias at February 22, 2018 6:38 AM PST
    • 2064 posts
    February 22, 2018 11:08 AM PST

    Darchias said:

    Shaman, traditionally, is a class that is relegated as a savage witchdoctor sort of aesthetic. This is amplified by the tendency for the 'less civilized' races to become Shaman, like the Ogre or Skar. However, this is only a traditional interpretation of the Shaman. I know you mention we must supply 'sufficient supporting information' to justify breaking from convention, but happily the Shaman and the Elf are both things we actually have a wealth of publically available information on.

    The Shaman is a casting class that doesn't draw on the same energies other casters draw upon. They draw their magic from the power of time, the power of ancestry, and a mastery of the past. The Elf is a race who is so concerned with their tragic past, their fallen ancestors and former glory that they turn their faces from the Gods themselves. The long-lived Elves, who can simply watch multiple generations of their foes be born, age, and die, having a mastery over their ancestry? I don't see that as innappropriate at all.

    People have complained about the Elf not having access to the Cleric. The explanation we received is that Elves are too preoccupied with their mortal affairs and their past that their relationship with their Gods are too strained to ordain any Clerics. With the Ashen Shaman who pull strength from the past they seek to remember and the Ember Druids who pull strength from the lands they seek to master for their people, what room in their society is there for Clerics?

    My argument, of course, hinges on the perception of Shaman as 'unrefined' and 'heretical' being unnecessary trappings. Yes, an Ogre Shaman would be those things, but the Elf Shaman can be something entirely different. Imagine an aged Elf with an intricately carved wooden staff, Elven script telling a tale of their history winding down it's length. The Elf is wearing light, mithril chainmail, and he often speaks in a forgotten tongue when he isn't paying attention. Any interaction with a shorter-lived race mentions that he might have interacted with one of their parents recently, and if they sneak up on him he might get their name and the name of a long-dead ancestor of theirs confused. This Elf is what I imagine when I think of 'Elven Shaman.'

    Well said. 

     

    I don't think you can point and call shaman savage or less civilized, that is a real world prejudice largely created by Christianity. In a world where shaman produce demonstrable results of healing and communication with ancestors I can only imagine them being revered. 

     

    EndGamerZ said:

    The convention of Elves thus far is they are very strict, prideful and exclusionary...

    That's actually not the case in general for Elves. Remember they willingly took in the Humans when they arrived in Terminus and have been good friends ever since. 

     

    The Lucent are the largest group of and most common Elves:

    "For Lucent Elves, the Ashen heritage of suspicion toward outsiders is distilled down into something more like reservation and caution. They don't all have the same thoughts toward outsiders, but generally speaking they have no abiding fear of other races or overwhelming concern about their presence within Elven territory."

     

    But even the other two groups aren't exclusionary as much as they are just preoccupied with Elven affairs... more suspicious if anything but still willing and readily able to acknowledge the good of others:

    "Ashen are generally cold and dispassionate toward outsiders. This isn't because they think everyone beyond Faerthale is the Revenant or Tohr'mentirii (read the lore), though there is a distrust toward non-Elves that can lead to suspicion. Instead the Ashen have cultivated an intense preoccupation with their own world. They have no great trouble acknowledging the good of others, but they are reluctant to see the merit in embracing them. If the Elven way is the best way then any way that's not Elven is, by default, not as good."

    "The Ember...They don't necessarily trust outsiders any more than Ashen, but they do see the merit of exploring and engaging the vastness of the outside world. The Ember have an aggressive concern for their people that manifests in a hunter's heart, rather than a priest's piety."


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 22, 2018 11:09 AM PST
    • 100 posts
    February 24, 2018 1:57 PM PST

    I'm not too fond of the idea that Humans can be whatever the hell they want to be while every other class is more limited, some more so than anothers, and kinda disappointed that Paladin is such an exclusive class...

    • 16 posts
    February 25, 2018 10:28 PM PST

    There needs to be a Fighter/Magic user class for Elves.

    • 5 posts
    February 26, 2018 6:35 PM PST

    I'd like to see a Dwarf Bard. However, you're always drunk and since you can't sing well, you just sing loud!

    Anyone?

    No?

    Yea..... I kind of figured as much =P.

    • 603 posts
    February 27, 2018 6:25 AM PST

    Connas Soth said:

    I'd like to see a Dwarf Bard. However, you're always drunk and since you can't sing well, you just sing loud!

    Anyone?

    No?

    Yea..... I kind of figured as much =P.




    Dwarf Bard sings loudly: "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. Take one down and pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall".

    xD


    -sorte.

    • 326 posts
    February 27, 2018 7:53 AM PST

    Connas Soth said:

    I'd like to see a Dwarf Bard. However, you're always drunk and since you can't sing well, you just sing loud!

    Anyone?

    No?

    Yea..... I kind of figured as much =P.

    I think thats a cool way to look at it.  I could also imagine Ogres chanting, pounding on wardrums and bellowing massive horns, filling their allies with rage and demoralzing their enemies.  But there are no Ogre Bards :(

    • 2589 posts
    February 27, 2018 9:56 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Connas Soth said:

    I'd like to see a Dwarf Bard. However, you're always drunk and since you can't sing well, you just sing loud!

    Anyone?

    No?

    Yea..... I kind of figured as much =P.

    I think thats a cool way to look at it.  I could also imagine Ogres chanting, pounding on wardrums and bellowing massive horns, filling their allies with rage and demoralzing their enemies.  But there are no Ogre Bards :(

    Holding out hope that Progeny will allow this to happen.  Otherwise ... this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5VAcjoiJ-E

    • 67 posts
    February 27, 2018 10:05 AM PST

    It's probably an important distinction for Bards on using magic song. Having a tradition of music is probably something all the races share (well, maybe not the Skar and Gnomes...) but having music or poetry be a central thematic in their lore and accessing the literal magic of artistic expression is what makes or breaks access to the Bard class. 'Warcry' based effects like suggested with Ogre Bards might be abilities given to the Warrior or Dire Lord class, the latter of which is known for 'mastering the crippling power of fear.'

    • 3833 posts
    February 27, 2018 10:15 AM PST

    Darchias said:

    It's probably an important distinction for Bards on using magic song. Having a tradition of music is probably something all the races share (well, maybe not the Skar and Gnomes...) but having music or poetry be a central thematic in their lore and accessing the literal magic of artistic expression is what makes or breaks access to the Bard class. 'Warcry' based effects like suggested with Ogre Bards might be abilities given to the Warrior or Dire Lord class, the latter of which is known for 'mastering the crippling power of fear.'

    I agree that is an important distinction. Most MMO classes have roots in D&D, and from there we can see that the Bard's song has explicitly magical properties:

    "Bards use their artistic talents to induce magical effects.The class is loosely based on the special magic that music holds in stories such as the Pied Piper of Hamelin,"

    (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons) )

    There's more to being a Bard than inspiring courage or rage. Such non-magical abilities could easily fit into a Warrior's arsenal. Bards also have the power of entrancing those that hear their song. Personally, I'd find it very odd to see an Ogre lulling someone to sleep.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at February 27, 2018 10:18 AM PST
    • 326 posts
    February 27, 2018 10:52 AM PST

    There's more to being a Bard than inspiring courage or rage. Such non-magical abilities could easily fit into a Warrior's arsenal. Bards also have the power of entrancing those that hear their song. Personally, I'd find it very odd to see an Ogre lulling someone to sleep.

    I feel the same way about the Dwarf though (in a weird racist way...) in regard to the "rugged looking races" lulling someone to sleep or charming something with their irresistible looks.  But I can completely understand that the Ogre isn't capable of being a bard due to the arcane nature of the songs.  My original comment was more of a fun perception of "music" than a question or argument as to why Ogres don't have access to the bard.

     

    **eidt** Why is this under News and Announcements?


    This post was edited by Darch at February 27, 2018 11:01 AM PST
    • 2064 posts
    February 27, 2018 11:14 AM PST

    I imagine a good part of Ogre not having access to bard has to do with them not exactly being dexterous when it comes to instruments nor particularly gifted at carrying a tune. I'd bet the best of them would still end up sounding like Jim Henson's muppet Sweetums. 

    • 2589 posts
    February 27, 2018 11:17 AM PST

    Galka bards were really rare in FFXI but I always loved grouping with them.  I am a fan of weird race/class combinations ... I had a troll paladin in EQ2!  He wasn't my main but it was really cool playing something different.  I'll never forget the bad ass gnome warrior I met during my EQOA days ... his name was Tower.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 27, 2018 11:18 AM PST
    • 2064 posts
    February 27, 2018 11:30 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Galka bards were really rare in FFXI but I always loved grouping with them.  I am a fan of weird race/class combinations ... I had a troll paladin in EQ2!  He wasn't my main but it was really cool playing something different.  I'll never forget the bad ass gnome warrior I met during my EQOA days ... his name was Tower.

    Here's to hoping rare/otherwise unavailable combos can be unlocked via progeny. I'd love some super out of the box head turners like a Skar Cleric or Gnome Warrior...as long as each race has access to a trainer somewhere in the world (Skar cleric would probably have to travel to the Myr city).

    • 27 posts
    March 2, 2018 12:06 PM PST

    Sorte said:

    Connas Soth said:

    I'd like to see a Dwarf Bard. However, you're always drunk and since you can't sing well, you just sing loud!

    Anyone?

    No?

    Yea..... I kind of figured as much =P.




    Dwarf Bard sings loudly: "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. Take one down and pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall".

    xD

    Brells Magic Keg is for Ale !   Up all night getting dizzy and pale...

    *written and performed by Jethal Silverwing  (as both ratonga and dwarf ! )
    -sorte.

     

     

    • 173 posts
    March 11, 2018 7:15 PM PDT

    Darchias said:

    If you've read the above and still disagree that they shoudn't be Rogues... I don't know what to tell you. Those arguments convinced me.

     

    I'm still going with "Word of God" (namely, I just think Kislin REALLY wants to play a Gnome Rogue, lol)

    All of those descriptions don't describe a Rogue.  They describe an Enchanter.  Enchanters traditionally have invisibility and illusion spells.  And if the Gnome's small frame accords it easy access to hiding, then that should be a RACIAL ability, not a CLASS decision - why can a Gnome Rogue hide in shadows but a Gnome Mage cannot, when it is their PHYSICAL FRAME that allows them to do so?  Further, the argument even goes that Gnomes don't train martial prowess.  Does this mean Gnome Rogues will not have weaponskills/abilities and will, instead, use magic attacks unlike all other race Rogues?  That the Gnome Rogue will be a different class from normal Rogues?  Of course not.  It'll be like in WoW where they gave Tauren Paladins as a class calling them "Sun Druids" which was stupid because (a) at the same time the Druid class already uses solar abilities and (b) there were FAR better arguments for giving Trolls the Paladin class based on the Zul Gurub lore from Vanilla establishing that there was once a group of "heretic" Trolls that used "strange magics", wore plate armor, and fought against the blood god (and were called "heretics" by their worshipers, but given the more honorable name of "Freethinkers" by those who opposed the darker path the Troll race was taking).

    Ahem... (I'm STILL a little miffed about that one for some reason, lol)

    The point is, all of the things said about Gnome Rogues actually apply to Gnome Enchanters.  The ability to magically disappear from sight, to strike from the shadows, and to search for treasure and control the battlefield.  Give Gnome Enchanters some kind of stabby-stabby weapon skill and there's your argument.

    The fact that the lore clearly says that Gnomes do NOT practice martial skills means that having the Rogue CLASS - which uses weapon skills (e.g. martial arts training) - doesn't make sense.  Especially since they also cannot play Warriors, and Warrior is the most basic of all physical classes (which is why EVERY RACE in basically EVERY MMO can play them - even in WoW where Blood Elves didn't get access to Warriors when they were first released, it was eventually given to them, and at the time, only denied because the game code had a limit of the amount of classes each race could have - 8 or so, I think - which was fixed later on.)

    .

    So yeah, those arguments won you over, great...

    ...but I'm saying they aren't that great arguments and I can easily see reason to oppose them.  I accept there will be Gnome Rogues (again, "Word of God"), but I find it a jarring break from their lore, seems very misplaced without giving them Warrior as well, and kind of diminishes the race to me.  A race ENTIRELY of magical/casters is cool to me as something different.  Tacking on ONE (and ONLY one) physical class because of "Rule of Cool" is kind of frustrating.  I accept that Gnomes don't have Cleric (though I still think they should, because Pantheon Cleric is very different than most classic MMO "Priest" archetypes and are actually a knolwedge/magic/artifact based class, lorewise, not a devout, religious one in the "normal" sense), and I accept they WILL have Rogue...but I don't have to like it.  :p

    .

    Finally, that a spirit/energy being Gnome flashing around shadows assassinating people is a thought that keeps people up at night is reason to have them in a game doesn't make sense to me.  The thought of a life-ending meteor crashing into Earth keeps me up at night, too, or the thought of corrupt government agencies someday dominating the world's Human population, or of Human trafficking or torture, or any other number of horrible things keep me up at night... - doesn't mean every game needs a world ending meteor.  :) 

    • 522 posts
    March 13, 2018 6:26 AM PDT

    Renathras said:

    Snip

    Love your post, you made a really cool point about gnome rogues being similar to enchanters.

    Thinking about dilligent, weak bodied folks who greatly value their race over their individual selves choosing to forsake flashy magic to be rogues often enough to make it a class/race combo is difficult for me too. 

     

    By the way, an ogre singing battle songs at unfortunate foes with accompaniment of a large drum or other bass instrument is a thought that keeps me up at night.

    As is an elf beating foes down with holy might. And a halfling using their wordy wiles in context with illusion based mind control spells. And an Ogre sneaking into your room and stabbing you with his sword sized dagger. And an Ogre doing a round house kick/tiger palm strike, augmenting those massive limbs with ki. And an ogre casting wizardly explosion magic. O.K. I'm done now=)


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at March 13, 2018 6:53 AM PDT
    • 67 posts
    March 13, 2018 9:01 AM PDT

    Renathras said:

    I'm still going with "Word of God" (namely, I just think Kislin REALLY wants to play a Gnome Rogue, lol)

    All of those descriptions don't describe a Rogue.  They describe an Enchanter.  Enchanters traditionally have invisibility and illusion spells.  And if the Gnome's small frame accords it easy access to hiding, then that should be a RACIAL ability, not a CLASS decision - why can a Gnome Rogue hide in shadows but a Gnome Mage cannot, when it is their PHYSICAL FRAME that allows them to do so?  Further, the argument even goes that Gnomes don't train martial prowess.  Does this mean Gnome Rogues will not have weaponskills/abilities and will, instead, use magic attacks unlike all other race Rogues?  That the Gnome Rogue will be a different class from normal Rogues?  Of course not.  It'll be like in WoW where they gave Tauren Paladins as a class calling them "Sun Druids" which was stupid because (a) at the same time the Druid class already uses solar abilities and (b) there were FAR better arguments for giving Trolls the Paladin class based on the Zul Gurub lore from Vanilla establishing that there was once a group of "heretic" Trolls that used "strange magics", wore plate armor, and fought against the blood god (and were called "heretics" by their worshipers, but given the more honorable name of "Freethinkers" by those who opposed the darker path the Troll race was taking).

    Ahem... (I'm STILL a little miffed about that one for some reason, lol)

    The point is, all of the things said about Gnome Rogues actually apply to Gnome Enchanters.  The ability to magically disappear from sight, to strike from the shadows, and to search for treasure and control the battlefield.  Give Gnome Enchanters some kind of stabby-stabby weapon skill and there's your argument.

    The fact that the lore clearly says that Gnomes do NOT practice martial skills means that having the Rogue CLASS - which uses weapon skills (e.g. martial arts training) - doesn't make sense.  Especially since they also cannot play Warriors, and Warrior is the most basic of all physical classes (which is why EVERY RACE in basically EVERY MMO can play them - even in WoW where Blood Elves didn't get access to Warriors when they were first released, it was eventually given to them, and at the time, only denied because the game code had a limit of the amount of classes each race could have - 8 or so, I think - which was fixed later on.)

    .

    So yeah, those arguments won you over, great...

    ...but I'm saying they aren't that great arguments and I can easily see reason to oppose them.  I accept there will be Gnome Rogues (again, "Word of God"), but I find it a jarring break from their lore, seems very misplaced without giving them Warrior as well, and kind of diminishes the race to me.  A race ENTIRELY of magical/casters is cool to me as something different.  Tacking on ONE (and ONLY one) physical class because of "Rule of Cool" is kind of frustrating.  I accept that Gnomes don't have Cleric (though I still think they should, because Pantheon Cleric is very different than most classic MMO "Priest" archetypes and are actually a knolwedge/magic/artifact based class, lorewise, not a devout, religious one in the "normal" sense), and I accept they WILL have Rogue...but I don't have to like it.  :p

    .

    Finally, that a spirit/energy being Gnome flashing around shadows assassinating people is a thought that keeps people up at night is reason to have them in a game doesn't make sense to me.  The thought of a life-ending meteor crashing into Earth keeps me up at night, too, or the thought of corrupt government agencies someday dominating the world's Human population, or of Human trafficking or torture, or any other number of horrible things keep me up at night... - doesn't mean every game needs a world ending meteor.  :)

    There's a lot to unpack here, so I'll try my best. The largest part of this argument, it seems to me, is that you have an extremely specific view of what it means to be a Rogue, which has a couple of things it needs to have. Martial skill, knives, and hiding in shadows, and you make the further qualifications that all classes must be the only ones to have the thing that they're known for being the best at and that Warriors are considered 'basic'. If I'm wrong on any of these points, feel free to correct me, but I'm going to attend to each of them.

    Rogues need to have 'martial skill'. I would argue they don't. If you look at Rogue archtypes in a few other games, you would be right! However, in Pantheon, the Rogue is one of the classes we know the most about thanks to it's entry in the Class section of the website.

    Swift, elusive and deadly, the treacherous Rogue is far more than a trickster. With daggers drawn she is a ruinous force, dwelling in the dread of her foes and smiling at the dark as if it were an old friend. In the shifting sands of this fragile era, Rogues are sought out for the faceless affairs of nations. Yet their allegiance is rarely to a banner or creed.

    • Ability Arsenal: The Rogue calls upon a multitude of skills, such as trapfinding, disabling traps, and opening locks. They can also strike an opponent when they least expect it with deadly precision, oft times with a poison coated blade. Some Rogues are driven to experimentation with crafting their own devices and alchemical concoctions to distract, damage, and escape their foes.

    • Iconic Ability: Improvised Alchemy
      Embracing life on the edge, the Rogue calls upon their knowledge of poisons and mixtures to whip up an improvised potion to hurl at their opponents. Such creations aren’t made with the level of care a dedicated Alchemist might craft, so the Rogue never knows for sure what effect they’re going to come up with until they see the result in combat .

So it seems that the Rogue class, in Pantheon, is more about 'deadly precision', crafting devices, and alchemy than 'martial prowess'. Their training seems to be one part stabbing, three parts crafting in a workshop, one part crafting on the fly, and two parts anatomy knowledge. Not a lot of 'martial training' there. They stab with their brains, the body is just a delivery mechanism. As for hiding in shadows, while the fact apparently Gnomes glow might make this a bit hard if they rupture a seal or something, they can also pack themselves down to fit in a breadbox, so while shadows might not be their friend, a cluttered room or uneven cavern might conceal a Gnome at any time of day. I will remind 'controlling the battlefield' is something the Support category of classes do, and Rogues are both Melee DPS and Support.

Warriors aren't basic. Just because most races can be them doesn't make it an easy class. It's a long, hard training consisting of tactics, physical conditioning, and weapon drills. You don't pick up a sword, swing it around for a few weeks, and get punched in the face at the bar a few times because you said unflattering things about their relatives and call yourself a Warrior. Nearly everyone can be a Warrior because it's a fairly essential class! Everyone needs meatshields. The devs even make it a point that Gnomes build golems, homunculi, and possibly even zombies to fill the niche in their society that Warriors would fill anywhere else. Gnomes can't be Warriors due to lacking the requisite physical durability to take a dragon's talon to the face. Rogues don't either, so that doesn't disqualify them from being a Rogue.

As for thinking that Rogues aren't allowed to use magic at all... well, why not? Who's to say Rogues of other races don't dabble a bit in illusion magic? Why do Enchanters need to have a monopoly on an entire branch of magic, particularly since I'll bet that Enchanters won't be the only casting class with access to Invisibility. Talking about the Gnomish inclination to use magic to augment their stealth emphasizes the idea of stealth, and that hiding oneself away from danger is an inherently Gnomish thing to do, which goes hand in hand with Rogue.

I guess my main point here is that I think we disagree what exactly it means to be a 'physical' class, and more importantly what the Rogue is. I agree that the Rogue is a physical class, but one that uses brains over brawn. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Rogues itemize for Intelligence as one of their key stats, which would be an interesting design choice in my opinion.

 

EDIT: What is wrong with my formatting... Nothing I'm trying is working, gonna have to leave it as-is. If a moderator can figure out wtf is wrong I'd appreciate it.


This post was edited by Darchias at March 13, 2018 9:08 AM PDT
    • 10 posts
    March 13, 2018 4:19 PM PDT

    attempting fix formating


    This post was edited by Apoxar at March 13, 2018 4:32 PM PDT
    • 10 posts
    March 13, 2018 4:31 PM PDT

    Apoxar said:

    Long read to catch up for a first time post.

     

    What would people's thoughts be of the following:

    Any race can be any class, with the the following example.

     

    Say you want to play an ogre monk.  You'd run into the following issue.

    No racial cultural background.

     

    This could have far reaching issues. 

    -Your race would have no trainers for this class, meaning you would be forced to progress via faction with a different race.  Depending on starting factions, this might be very difficult, or nearing impossible at lower levels.
    -No class/race specific crafting or itemization.  Perhaps the only light armor made by ogres leans towards druids, or very simple clothing.  Add in racial size restrictions (if thats going to be a thing again) on dropped gear might make it very difficult to find 'proper' armor for such a character.  Maybe you'd have to find ways to craft your own.
    -Outcast repuation.  You've chosen to be something contrary to your racial culture.  You've gained the scorn of your fellow Ogres, who won't associate with you, etc, related faction issues.
     

    A simple example, but the thought could easily be compounded for other combinations.  Maybe Gnome Warriors.  Sure, you can do it, but it'd be absolutely terrible.  Maybe bonus damage taken?  High chance of being stunned?

    If the thought is paladins are a 'holy warrior of good', something like a dark myr might literally have months of faction work to even train.

     

    Personally, things I'd love to see.  Would be amazing to see a functioning high level contrary race-class combination that while certainly not min/max, very different, or very rare.

     Yes, it could very well result in a totally gimped character.  The power of choice.

     

     Edit: I have no idea if this shows the same for other people as it does me (nearly unreadable), but I have no idea how to fix it.

    • 2064 posts
    March 13, 2018 4:43 PM PDT

    The forum usually breaks like this after someone does a copy+paste of something from the FAQ page and sometimes other pages from the site. I'd suspect Darchias broke it unintentially when they copy+paste the bit from the rogue class page. 

     

    That said I don't like the idea of any race any class unless it is gated behind something like progeny (in which case I love the idea). It breaks the lore/feel of the world quite a bit when everyone is playing random/weird combinations that go against the norms of any given race. Yes it would make sense that each race might have some small number of individuals that go their own path and break cultural norms but it would be quite rare, hence gating it behind something like progeny. 

    • 10 posts
    March 13, 2018 5:03 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    The forum usually breaks like this after someone does a copy+paste of something from the FAQ page and sometimes other pages from the site. I'd suspect Darchias broke it unintentially when they copy+paste the bit from the rogue class page. 

     

    That said I don't like the idea of any race any class unless it is gated behind something like progeny (in which case I love the idea). It breaks the lore/feel of the world quite a bit when everyone is playing random/weird combinations that go against the norms of any given race. Yes it would make sense that each race might have some small number of individuals that go their own path and break cultural norms but it would be quite rare, hence gating it behind something like progeny. 

     

    I'd actually had that thought also.  Perhaps an ogre could be a monk if his Bigmomma made deep friendships up at the mon(k)astary.