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Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • 467 posts
    October 17, 2017 9:46 AM PDT

    Porygon said:

    If you are wearing PLATE armor... you are clearly concerned with defense.   A book doesnt really provide that lol

     

    Presumably, the cleric is fully aware of this, yet chooses the book because it provides access to powerful magicks that mitigate more damage than a mere shield.   He's not carrying a thick book to press wild flowers or to look up another word for "resurrection". 

    I know several folks who are upset at the limited racial choices for clerics.  They have been role-playing gnome and halfling clerics for years in other games.   I get why the gnomes aren't clerics, but I don't see anything in the halfling lore that would restrict them.  Since bards aren't likely to be in-game at launch, halflings are limited to 4 classes, tying with them ogres as being the most restricted races in Pantheon.  I hope the devs revisit this decision.

    From an RP perspective, the class/race matrix holds a few disappointments and a few surprises.

     

    • 1656 posts
    October 17, 2017 10:48 AM PDT

    Well, from a Pantheon lore perspective it makes sense that halflings can't be clerics. To quote the loremaster when talking about elves:

     

    Another hot button issue was that of the lack of a Cleric or Paladin class available to our Elves. While the superficial answer of “think of them as wood elves, not high elves” makes sense to most veteran gamers, there is a deeper lore meaning behind that rationale. Justin explained that the races that were prone to produce Clerics and Paladins were ones that were deeply connected to their deities, and that relationship was one that was central to their daily lives. The Elves are a bit different in that regard.

    “While their pantheon is important to the Elves, their response to several tragic and divisive historical moments has superseded the way they see themselves. To a degree Elves have become more ideological than religious. While some races are separated into different factions based on which deity they worship, Elves are split between two extremes (Ashen and Ember) and the nominal middle called Lucent. Those division represent the way they think is best to protect and prosper their people. Is it interwoven with their worship? Yes. But faith isn’t the first-thought focus of their life. It’s fair to ask if that is an imbalance for them”

     

    Halflings aren't deeply connected to their deities, if they even have any at all. 

    • 357 posts
    October 17, 2017 7:46 PM PDT

    Celandor said:

    I know several folks who are upset at the limited racial choices for clerics.  They have been role-playing gnome and halfling clerics for years in other games.   I get why the gnomes aren't clerics, but I don't see anything in the halfling lore that would restrict them.  Since bards aren't likely to be in-game at launch, halflings are limited to 4 classes, tying with them ogres as being the most restricted races in Pantheon.  I hope the devs revisit this decision.

    From an RP perspective, the class/race matrix holds a few disappointments and a few surprises.

     

    Ive never been one to roleplay.  But given that these iterations of gnomes and halflings are very different from others before... would it not really matter.  In the sense of, any roleplay experience you have from say, a halfling in EQ1, wouldnt really play much of a part here.  You would essentially be starting a new race, which is what you would have to do here.

    Correct me if im wrong lol.

    • 27 posts
    February 6, 2018 4:07 PM PST

    I'm curious if the races with fewer class options (4 options: Ogre, 5 options: Gnome and Hafling) and even those I would call intermediate options (6 options: Archai, Dwarf ans Skar) will be more elite at their available options than other classes who have more options?  It would sort of make sense, i.e. if you have a whole race of people who can only do 4 or 5 things then you would expect them to be really, really good at those 4 or 5 things, right?

    Just curious, :)

    Also, I know we all have preconceived notions of who should be what, what this class is or should be able to do, etc... based off of previous games, books and movies but this is a brand new world.  All we know about Terminus is what has been written by the developers, and it's pretty dang neat.  If we could drop preconceived notions I think we would look at these classes with some awe and excitment.  I know I have.  My first look at them was interesting, I thought oh man, that combo will be neat, that sounds fun, that is a little weird, but I didn't have huge ideas about what should be what.  It's been 12+ years since I've touched an MMO so I'm a bit out of touch.  But I'm personally very cool with them breaking from the tradition (is it really tradition, it's only been since EQ really...) and making their own paths.  To me that opens up a lot of new possibilities, "like how powerful will an Ogre Druid be?", as opposed to closing down doors like "why can't my elf be a cleric?"

    -Ini

    • 3353 posts
    February 7, 2018 3:26 AM PST

    TripleD said:

    I'm curious if the races with fewer class options (4 options: Ogre, 5 options: Gnome and Hafling) and even those I would call intermediate options (6 options: Archai, Dwarf ans Skar) will be more elite at their available options than other classes who have more options?  It would sort of make sense, i.e. if you have a whole race of people who can only do 4 or 5 things then you would expect them to be really, really good at those 4 or 5 things, right?

    Just curious, :)

    mmm kinda yes and no. It wouldn't make sense to have an Ogre Warrior be objectively better than a Human Warrior, or else no one would play a Human Warrior. But it won't necessarily be a significant disadvantage to only have 4 options either. From the FAQ:

    4.5 With all these races and classes are they going to become homogenized for easy balancing, or will some just naturally be better at other things than others?

    On a high level, overall, there must be balance. If not, everyone would feel compelled to play only the race/class combination more powerful than the others. That said, what race you choose will involve receiving different racial innate abilities that can and will be handy while adventuring. So, there will be times when the race you choose is to your and your party’s advantage, other times neutral, and other times to your disadvantage. Same with classes. They will all be useful in any serious dungeon or other adventure area but one may be more advantageous in certain scenarios and situations.

    • 1053 posts
    February 8, 2018 8:24 AM PST

    In many games one race *is* clearly and distinctly better for particular classes. But the advantage fades away fairly quickly. Suppose a dwarf warrior starts off with 12 hit points and an elven warrior with 8. Pretty big difference. Why would anyone play an elven warrior unless there was a big advantage the other way in something else. Well, maybe because a reasonably geared dwarven warrior will have 300 hit points in a week and the elf will have 296. Aesthetic preference may override that 4 hit point difference. Or maybe the elf gets very slightly better armor that balances it all out.

    More importantly, do we really need equal incentives for all race-class combinations? I would argue definitely not. All classes should have a valid role - none should be objectively inferior at everything. All races should have a valid role - likewise. But many people like the challenge of a weaker combination and I think it benefits neither the game nor the players to try and make every *combination* equal. Let a dwarf warrior be objectively superior to a halfling warrior from beginning to end (or vice versa).

    Yes this will discourage the person that only wants  to play a halfling and only wants to play a warrior and wants to be the best - but IMO it is worse to shoot for universal blandness in the name of total equality. Let us not crucify the hope of varying and interesting races upon the cross of uniformity (apologies to William Jennings Bryant his speech was a lot better than my revision).

    By the way it is still too early to assume that the race/class combinations are locked in stone. I would be surprised if at release they are identical to how they look now.

     

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at February 8, 2018 9:28 AM PST
    • 120 posts
    February 8, 2018 8:47 AM PST

    In EQ the only class/race combos that were clearly better was Ogre warrior with resist to stun when facing the mob, and monk and necro iskar for regen. Every other class/race combo at end game would usually have gear sets that maxed out all of their stats anyways. So if the gear is balanced to the point of making it possible for any combination of race/class combos to have maxed stats in their primary stats, then the only balancing issue will be racial abilities.


    This post was edited by Watemper at February 8, 2018 8:49 AM PST
    • 2261 posts
    February 8, 2018 9:01 AM PST

    I think each race should have their own starter stats and maybe a racial ability or two.  The starter stats become less effective as you grow in level, eventually getting to the point where they are barely noticeable at all.  Starter stats could include base resists and possibly small acclimation bonuses.  As far as racial abilities are concerned, I would prefer to see them be meaningful and possibly be tied into progeny as it could allow each race to have meaningful differences, but wouldn't prevent players from mixing and matching to some degree if they are willing to participate in the system.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 8, 2018 9:06 AM PST
    • 4 posts
    February 8, 2018 9:06 AM PST

    well put oneADseven and Dorotea . Thats my thought as well.

    • 120 posts
    February 8, 2018 9:08 AM PST

    Don't know about the progney system with racial abilities. If they are very good racial abilities then racial combos could be broken.

    • 2261 posts
    February 8, 2018 9:15 AM PST

    It's also possible that progeny could be used to open up new race/class combinations.  The sky is the limit.

    • 1053 posts
    February 8, 2018 9:34 AM PST

    Right now Progeny is an interesting idea that can still go in any of a number of directions. At least as far as we know.

    It would be a bit off topic to focus too much on that now but I am content to assume that VR is capable of developing that system in a way that doesn't break other things ....too much.

    • 67 posts
    February 8, 2018 9:46 AM PST

    I'm excited about most of the combinations available. I do agree with earlier criticism about the dearth of classes capable of being Clerics and Paladins though. I read the above justification for Elves not being Clerics (due to their culture being more about idealogical divides and this getting in the way with their worship), and I agree with it, but the fact that only two races can be Paladins is fairly concerning to me. Maybe it is, indeed, a bad plan to have Elf Clerics, but I think Elf Paladins might be a natural fit. I don't know much about the Paladin class, myself, but the brief blurb on the Classes page mention that they have, 'a call transceding the customs of the Cleric order.' In that lens, the ideals of the Ashen and Ember factions getting in the way of their faith seems a perfect fit for Paladins.

    The only real problem with a race that can't be a cleric being a Paladin is the Paladin blurb explicitly says that Paladins are former Clerics, so that particular flavor would probably have to be altered to fit in Elf Paladins, but I think that Ashen Paladins and Ember Paladins would be a very interesting dynamic and would allow for greater diversity in the Paladin class, or even Lucent Paladins who's call is to unite the divisions in their race. I think there's a lot of interesting space to be explored lore-wise.


    This post was edited by Darchias at February 8, 2018 9:47 AM PST
    • 120 posts
    February 8, 2018 11:08 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    It's also possible that progeny could be used to open up new race/class combinations.  The sky is the limit.

     

    That I think I am fine with.

    • 2261 posts
    February 8, 2018 12:04 PM PST

    I find it interesting that Dark Myr can play as clerics but don't allow a transition for those clerics to become paladins.  The class description for paladins seems like something that would be right up their alley.  Based on the cleric prerequisite it would seem that Dark Myr are the most likely choice to have paladin added to their available class matrix.

    • 832 posts
    February 8, 2018 12:41 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I find it interesting that Dark Myr can play as clerics but don't allow a transition for those clerics to become paladins.  The class description for paladins seems like something that would be right up their alley.  Based on the cleric prerequisite it would seem that Dark Myr are the most likely choice to have paladin added to their available class matrix.

     

    Fair point, and something I agree with. Its really the only change I agree with myself as everthing else makes a lot of sense, so curious to see if there was valid reasoning for not allowing DM to be Pallys. 

    • 123 posts
    February 12, 2018 6:31 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I find it interesting that Dark Myr can play as clerics but don't allow a transition for those clerics to become paladins.  The class description for paladins seems like something that would be right up their alley.  Based on the cleric prerequisite it would seem that Dark Myr are the most likely choice to have paladin added to their available class matrix.

    I made this same argument last year.  Dark Myr can be Clerics AND Warriors, but not Paladins(?!)  I also added how good and evil are just perceptions;  One man's hero is another's villain.  The oppressed need righteous champions too.

    • 67 posts
    February 12, 2018 8:46 AM PST

    Well, an important distinction is that Paladins are not just hybrid Clerics/Warriors: They are former clerics that devote the zeal they used to show their deity to a more mortal cause. The Dark Myr culture may revere those clerics to such a degree that Dark Myr Paladins are simply anamatha: No Cleric would dream of leaving the order for any reason, for the cause of their race and their deities tenants are so aligned no cause could transcend the Order.

    With the Paladin flavor as it is (as far as I know) there really isn't much room for another race to be Paladin. The requirement to be a former cleric would have to be lifted to have any non-Cleric race become one. I made my argument for Elf Paladins above, but like I mentioned there, the Cleric requirement for entry kind of puts the kibosh on it.

    • 1656 posts
    February 12, 2018 1:49 PM PST

    Darchias said:

    Well, an important distinction is that Paladins are not just hybrid Clerics/Warriors: They are former clerics that devote the zeal they used to show their deity to a more mortal cause. The Dark Myr culture may revere those clerics to such a degree that Dark Myr Paladins are simply anamatha: No Cleric would dream of leaving the order for any reason, for the cause of their race and their deities tenants are so aligned no cause could transcend the Order.

    With the Paladin flavor as it is (as far as I know) there really isn't much room for another race to be Paladin. The requirement to be a former cleric would have to be lifted to have any non-Cleric race become one. I made my argument for Elf Paladins above, but like I mentioned there, the Cleric requirement for entry kind of puts the kibosh on it.

    That's how I see it. Dark Myr might just be so dedicated to Syronai that for one to assume they could use her gifts to take judgement into their own hands would be heresy of the highest order and an afront to the memory of her and her sacrifice. 

    • 46 posts
    February 12, 2018 2:02 PM PST

    From my understanding cleric and paladins get there powers from the gods so how is it from this post most of the gods were turned into mortals and are now deceased? So where are they getting their power from now?

     

    • 1656 posts
    February 12, 2018 2:13 PM PST

    Lovethemdead said:

    From my understanding cleric and paladins get there powers from the gods so how is it from this post most of the gods were turned into mortals and are now deceased? So where are they getting their power from now?

     

    We only know a very limited amount of the various gods of each race. 

     

    "In short, we want it to matter what deity you select, for obvious reasons. But there's a nuance in Pantheon that may differ from other games: each race has anywhere from 1-?00 deities, or things functioning in a deity-esque role. So you aren't picking from global, universal gods. You're picking from your racial roster, which is likely exclusive to your race. Now, there may still be some crossover between "like" deities, and that's the part we're working through now. So if you pick a God of Death for the Ogres, shouldn't that breed some familiarity with the followers of a similar god among the Dark Myr? We think so.

    When we've got those details worked out, I'm sure we'll have releases that help you acclimate and understand the Gods -- or similar beings -- of each race. We want you to know who you're serving, as much as you can."

    • 243 posts
    February 12, 2018 10:52 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I find it interesting that Dark Myr can play as clerics but don't allow a transition for those clerics to become paladins.  The class description for paladins seems like something that would be right up their alley.  Based on the cleric prerequisite it would seem that Dark Myr are the most likely choice to have paladin added to their available class matrix.

     

    I think alignment is the factor that prevents Dark Myr from having Paladins.  The devs seem to have gone with traditional alignment restrictions for the classes that normally had them (Paladin and Ranger were traditionally mandatory good alignment, Necromancer and Direlord would be mandatory evil).  So not only would a paladin require their race to support clerics (clerics could be good or evil, depending on their deity) and warriors, but the race would also need to support good alignment (so neutral or good race).  My understanding of the races are that there are 3 good (elf, halfling & dwarf), 3 neutral (human, gnome & archai) and 3 evil (skar, ogre & dark myr).  As such, you won't see any pallys or rangers amonst the 3 evils, or any necros or direlords amongst the 3 good races.

     

     

    • 145 posts
    February 14, 2018 11:01 AM PST

    After reading Februarys newsletter, I have to wonder if Ember and Ashen elves have access to all available elven classes, or if some classes will be Ember only, or Ashen only. And what about Lucent, the most common elf?

     

    Do these three branches of Elven society have different traits that would better suit them to a particular class?

    • 123 posts
    February 15, 2018 5:39 AM PST

    I think alignment is the factor that prevents Dark Myr from having Paladins.  The devs seem to have gone with traditional alignment restrictions for the classes that normally had them (Paladin and Ranger were traditionally mandatory good alignment, Necromancer and Direlord would be mandatory evil).  So not only would a paladin require their race to support clerics (clerics could be good or evil, depending on their deity) and warriors, but the race would also need to support good alignment (so neutral or good race).  My understanding of the races are that there are 3 good (elf, halfling & dwarf), 3 neutral (human, gnome & archai) and 3 evil (skar, ogre & dark myr).  As such, you won't see any pallys or rangers amonst the 3 evils, or any necros or direlords amongst the 3 good races.

     

    This is precisely what I was originally thinking, but then that logic is lost when you look at the classes like Bard and Druid... and even if you want to argue that the Bard, Druid and Ranger are "Neutral" in alignment, why can't everyone play them?  But when even that is taken out of the equation, good and evil are a matter of perception/perspective. 

    Although my opinion ultimately doesn't matter, I still stand by it.  I feel that if a race can physically and spiritually be a cleric AND warrior they should be able to be a paladin.  Likewise, if a race can be a Druid and Warrior, why can't some be Rangers (Ogre, Dark Myr, Archai)?

    Mod Edit: Inappropriate paragraphs removed in line with the forum guidelines.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at February 16, 2018 3:58 PM PST
    • 243 posts
    February 15, 2018 8:59 AM PST

    Like I said, it's just speculation. I recall seeing at some point that there was an alignment factor being designed into the game, but details on it haven't really been provided yet (and maybe that's changed? Who knows.) I'll agree that that wouldn't explain all the class restrictions. With respect to rangers, 1st and 2nd edition were actually strictly good alignment. I believe they got opened up at some point, but I only ever played 2nd ed., so the idea of a ranger that isn't good seems strange to me. Anyone first introduced to a more recent implementation would probably feel differently though. Either way though, that doesnt explain their lack of representation in say, the Archai. I'm guessing the devs may have had other design decisions in mind when they were drawing up their restrictions.


    This post was edited by Elrandir at February 15, 2018 9:01 AM PST