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Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • 2504 posts
    February 10, 2017 2:40 PM PST

    I feel like progeny might allow combinations innately locked. I'm also pulling this out of my posterior. 

    • 315 posts
    February 10, 2017 3:01 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    I feel like progeny might allow combinations innately locked. I'm also pulling this out of my posterior. 

     

    Well, I guess there are worse places to pull it out of LOL.  But hey, is not the conjecture part what makes this a great time to be MMO'n? :)


    This post was edited by Aarpoch at February 10, 2017 3:01 PM PST
    • 26 posts
    February 11, 2017 8:07 AM PST

    I will still play an elf wizard -- too many good memories with my girl -- 

    After that, when you guys get the necromancer out, may have to make a gnome one -- as for the elf shaman, why not ? I have never seen one, bit sounds intriguing,

    We have to stretch ourselves and think outside the box - if they can be druids, why not shamans ?

    • 6 posts
    February 11, 2017 3:26 PM PST

    so when this going to come out to play is all i want to know

    • 1851 posts
    February 11, 2017 3:31 PM PST

    Probably 2018 or late 2017.

    • 405 posts
    February 11, 2017 3:46 PM PST
    They are shooting for alpha and beta in 2017. So says the FAQ
    • Moderator
    • 8670 posts
    February 11, 2017 3:52 PM PST

    snowman301 said:

    so when this going to come out to play is all i want to know

    We do not have a full release ETA yet, we are currently pushing towards getting pre-alpha ready, our first testing phase, from there we will announce alpha when we are close enough to being ready for it. :)

    • 165 posts
    February 11, 2017 5:15 PM PST

    Elven Paladin......................................whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy =(

    • 235 posts
    February 11, 2017 7:43 PM PST

    @ Taledar hehe , I feel the pain as well .... Elf Warrior it is!

    • 50 posts
    February 12, 2017 3:30 PM PST

    I love the class combinations. I think its great that some races will have significantly less class options than others. My only suggestion would be that humans should have at least 1 class that they cannot play.

    • 4381 posts
    February 12, 2017 4:35 PM PST

    Dreake said:

    My only suggestion would be that humans should have at least 1 class that they cannot play.

    I must ask, is there a reason? Or just because?

    • 50 posts
    February 13, 2017 7:29 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    Dreake said:

    My only suggestion would be that humans should have at least 1 class that they cannot play.

    I must ask, is there a reason? Or just because?

     

    I just think it makes it more realistic that there are some classes that races can't be. You could make an argument that humans wouldn't be great races for dark-magic type classes, etc.

    • 2504 posts
    February 13, 2017 9:35 AM PST

    Dreake said:

    I just think it makes it more realistic that there are some classes that races can't be. You could make an argument that humans wouldn't be great races for dark-magic type classes, etc.

     

    I think Humans can do everything in a game like this because there tends to be a decent number of people who really don't like playing other humanoid races. In EQ humans could be everything but shaman, but Barbarians were just bigger (better) humans and had access. 

    • 749 posts
    February 13, 2017 12:31 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Dreake said:

    I just think it makes it more realistic that there are some classes that races can't be. You could make an argument that humans wouldn't be great races for dark-magic type classes, etc.

     

    I think Humans can do everything in a game like this because there tends to be a decent number of people who really don't like playing other humanoid races. In EQ humans could be everything but shaman, but Barbarians were just bigger (better) humans and had access. 

    I think this could also have something to do with that fact that everyone playing Pantheon is human (presumably, HA).  So without making humans able to play every race there's a slight disconnect in that respect.

    • 564 posts
    February 13, 2017 8:24 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    While it is a first pass for the community, it is not for us, we have put a lot of Time, effort, work and thought into these class/race combinations and while some of you may not be used to some of the restrictions, they make sense from a lore perspective and are actually very complicated and intrinsically entwined into the class interdependence and overall balance of Terminus, these decisions were not made lightly and it is unlikely we will change them for those reasons and more that I cannot reveal yet.

    We have taken onboard the feedback about Elf Cleric/Paladin but again, it is unlikely we will change at this stage, all I can say is that just because some people are used to different combinations in other games, doesn't mean you will see the same ones in our game, we are taking our own path and have shown that with our Dark Myr, Cold/Blue Dwarves, Archai and Gnome races.

    So my best suggestion is to open your minds and embrace the changes as they are set in place for a reason, we will reveal more as development progress. :)

    Oh, that is enlightening.

    As a consolation prize do we get a more in depth look at racial lore and it's relation to classes? I've read al lthe lore and usually take pride in my abillity to understand the thing I read, but clearly I was way off in several cases, as those who saw my post on which race could pull of which may know. Halflings are not charismatic nor tricksy, halflings are not even somewhat sprititually inclined when it comes to nature, ember elves are not traditional in any sort of religious sense, and the hardworking and technologically/magically advanced gnomes are in fact likely to enjoy cutting purses. I may sound bitter here, but worry not its on me. being so far off on so many different races and classes is..illuminating


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at February 13, 2017 8:28 PM PST
    • Moderator
    • 8670 posts
    February 14, 2017 1:28 AM PST

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Kilsin said:

    While it is a first pass for the community, it is not for us, we have put a lot of Time, effort, work and thought into these class/race combinations and while some of you may not be used to some of the restrictions, they make sense from a lore perspective and are actually very complicated and intrinsically entwined into the class interdependence and overall balance of Terminus, these decisions were not made lightly and it is unlikely we will change them for those reasons and more that I cannot reveal yet.

    We have taken onboard the feedback about Elf Cleric/Paladin but again, it is unlikely we will change at this stage, all I can say is that just because some people are used to different combinations in other games, doesn't mean you will see the same ones in our game, we are taking our own path and have shown that with our Dark Myr, Cold/Blue Dwarves, Archai and Gnome races.

    So my best suggestion is to open your minds and embrace the changes as they are set in place for a reason, we will reveal more as development progress. :)

    Oh, that is enlightening.

    As a consolation prize do we get a more in depth look at racial lore and it's relation to classes? I've read al lthe lore and usually take pride in my abillity to understand the thing I read, but clearly I was way off in several cases, as those who saw my post on which race could pull of which may know. Halflings are not charismatic nor tricksy, halflings are not even somewhat sprititually inclined when it comes to nature, ember elves are not traditional in any sort of religious sense, and the hardworking and technologically/magically advanced gnomes are in fact likely to enjoy cutting purses. I may sound bitter here, but worry not its on me. being so far off on so many different races and classes is..illuminating

    We will definitely share more in good time, this was just a small token to help people decide what class/race combo they wanted to play so they could speak about it more in the class discussion subforum.

    Halflings can be whatever we want them to be in this high fantasy setting, that is why I said to clear your minds and embrace the changes, they are not what you are used to :)

    • 185 posts
    February 14, 2017 6:47 AM PST

    @Kilsin,

     

    I don't think the Elf Cleric/Paladin thing is so much that people don't understand where you're coming from, as it is that Paladin's specifically are severely limited in their options. I get that there may be a very excellent reason - but even from an arithmetic stand point it seems to be forcing people into a very compromising position statistically. One of my biggest fears i've put out on this forum has been that the Paladin will be marginalized and under powered just like they were in EQ, and that its worth would be hamstrung by the development team. This definitely doesn't fill me with confidence. It's already starting out with one foot in the quicksand being limited to two races. One thats for sure going to be considered "jack of all trades, master of none." and another that will probably be the meta for that class if STR is the primary dwarven stat.

     

    I admire Aradune tremendously, but one of the things I remember being angry about as a young player in EQ1 is how much it felt like he and the EQ team were out to compromise the Paladin class from the outset. The Paladin Epic was one of the most difficult and convoluted. The Paladin spell gap was massive and the utility of the spells were incredibly situational due to how vast the gulf was between them and the Cleric learning cycles. The combat curve for that class from 1-10 was incredibly brutal. And the rewards felt like they were never in step with the risk of playing the class until 49. They were never considered a critical class in classic, and that's the last thing I want to see in Pantheon. (I also maintain the Necromancer was very pampered in EQ. To this day one of the greatest renditions of that class type to ever be made.)


    This post was edited by Verdic at February 14, 2017 6:51 AM PST
    • 243 posts
    February 14, 2017 7:26 AM PST

    VR Team I for one am happy about the things others seem to be upset about. I always play the evil races because I like the difficulty of navigating the world with danger around ever corner. Thus I have never really played a Druid but can't wait to try one out as an Ogre.

    I like the idea of the Dark Myr being Mermen/Mermaid and being a Monk. Spinning Tail Sweep? 

    I like that it makes sense in the World of Terminus and that Lore and the history have sort of set out Terminus as a unique game with some familiarity and yet so much new.

    I have always played Trolls because I want my fantasy world to be different than real life and well they always seemed simple and not quick witted and chubby butt scratching misfits to me. So I will be trying new races with this game and now new classes not ever available to Trolls.

    Now when I wanted to look sexy and be a pulling mob splitting off tank I played my Dark Elf Shadow Knight again neither in game. So I will try an Arachi Dire Lord. Seems close enough.

    Just the ideas and making me think to try new Races and Classes is good because MMO's have been in a rut for some time in my opinion. EverQuest, Rift, ShadowBane, Vanilla WoW and a few others took time to explore and level and learn and the was fun to myself and my wife.

    We are all in for Pantheon. Nothing else on the horizon peaks our interest and that's a shame because we love games but to us it seems they have gone the way of fast food. All the same, fast, cheap and simple. If you stay on the dollar menu you get out under budget but order anything different and all of a sudden you're dropping $13 on lunch. Fast food is great and it works but I think it's time for a restaurant. New menu items, new tastes, new experience.

    Best metaphor I could come up with.

    I like the idea of subscription, not a cash shop and being pay to play. I love the idea of risk and reward. I miss the grouping. Yes, It was nice when I could solo but I made friends and learned new strategies and add-ons or websites with people.

    Yes, I drifted off topic but what I am trying to do is say give it a chance and try it out.

    Their tenants and ideas and the fact they listen to us, means a lot. I hope VR hears that some people are on board and 

    • 2504 posts
    February 14, 2017 9:07 AM PST

    Verdic said:

    I don't think the Elf Cleric/Paladin thing is so much that people don't understand where you're coming from, as it is that Paladin's specifically are severely limited in their options. I get that there may be a very excellent reason - but even from an arithmetic stand point it seems to be forcing people into a very compromising position statistically. One of my biggest fears i've put out on this forum has been that the Paladin will be marginalized and under powered just like they were in EQ, and that its worth would be hamstrung by the development team. This definitely doesn't fill me with confidence. It's already starting out with one foot in the quicksand being limited to two races. One thats for sure going to be considered "jack of all trades, master of none." and another that will probably be the meta for that class if STR is the primary dwarven stat.

     

    Personally I can understand your concern from an EQ standpoint, as Paladin was always waaaay in the back, but there is nothing to suggest they will be underpowered in this game just by having two races available. I'd hope the team has learned a lot over the years and this time around Paladin won't simply be a weaker warrior with crappy hand-me-down cleric spells. We should just wait and see what they have in store, and what the racials are etc. 

     

    Edit: And don't forget EQ launched with Monk having a single race available expanding to two races for a very long time with the first expansion. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 14, 2017 9:47 AM PST
    • 4381 posts
    February 14, 2017 9:29 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Verdic said:

    I don't think the Elf Cleric/Paladin thing is so much that people don't understand where you're coming from, as it is that Paladin's specifically are severely limited in their options. I get that there may be a very excellent reason - but even from an arithmetic stand point it seems to be forcing people into a very compromising position statistically. One of my biggest fears i've put out on this forum has been that the Paladin will be marginalized and under powered just like they were in EQ, and that its worth would be hamstrung by the development team. This definitely doesn't fill me with confidence. It's already starting out with one foot in the quicksand being limited to two races. One thats for sure going to be considered "jack of all trades, master of none." and another that will probably be the meta for that class if STR is the primary dwarven stat.

     

    Personally I can understand your concern from an EQ standpoint, as Paladin was always waaaay in the back, but there is nothing to suggest they will be underpowered in this game just by having two races available. I'd hope the team has learned a lot over the years and this time around Paladin won't simply be a weaker warrior with crappy hand-me-down cleric spells. We should just wait and see what they have in store, and what the racials are etc. 

    Once again Iksar, you are correct. If they spent as much time mulling over the combination as they said they did (and we can only assume that they did), there's literally no way that they overlooked the fact that Paladins have only two race options. The power of the Paladin will be determined in testing and not a moment earlier. You can't really say what the arithmetic standpoint is because we haven't been given ANY numbers. The amount of race options does not affect the power of a class. I understand your concern. And I know people get tired of hearing this, but it really is too early to accurately judge. Don't let your fears skew your assessment.

    • 749 posts
    February 14, 2017 9:32 AM PST

    Verdic said:

    @Kilsin,

     

    I don't think the Elf Cleric/Paladin thing is so much that people don't understand where you're coming from, as it is that Paladin's specifically are severely limited in their options. I get that there may be a very excellent reason - but even from an arithmetic stand point it seems to be forcing people into a very compromising position statistically. One of my biggest fears i've put out on this forum has been that the Paladin will be marginalized and under powered just like they were in EQ, and that its worth would be hamstrung by the development team. This definitely doesn't fill me with confidence. It's already starting out with one foot in the quicksand being limited to two races. One thats for sure going to be considered "jack of all trades, master of none." and another that will probably be the meta for that class if STR is the primary dwarven stat.

     

    I admire Aradune tremendously, but one of the things I remember being angry about as a young player in EQ1 is how much it felt like he and the EQ team were out to compromise the Paladin class from the outset. The Paladin Epic was one of the most difficult and convoluted. The Paladin spell gap was massive and the utility of the spells were incredibly situational due to how vast the gulf was between them and the Cleric learning cycles. The combat curve for that class from 1-10 was incredibly brutal. And the rewards felt like they were never in step with the risk of playing the class until 49. They were never considered a critical class in classic, and that's the last thing I want to see in Pantheon. (I also maintain the Necromancer was very pampered in EQ. To this day one of the greatest renditions of that class type to ever be made.)

    May I just ask, did you play the Vanguard Paladin?  If so, where do you think it lands in comparison?  I played one for a short time, into early 30s perhaps.  Unfortunately, I really don't have much frame of reference because the class is just generally not one I identify with, so I never played the EQ Paladin.

    I hate to bring up the Pantheon vs EQ vs Vanguard debate, but I think it could carry some value given that Brad is the common thread.

    • 185 posts
    February 14, 2017 10:02 AM PST

    I realize that you are saying we don't have numbers and don't know - but in regards to *choice* specifically - the hard number is two. I want to make sure no one misses this. But I will put it on it's own line to stress it.

     

    Paladin is the only class with only two racial choices.

     

    My fears are based on the precendent it sets from a design stand point going forward. If this is the attitude that is being taken towards the class this early in design, it doesn't fill me with calm. Especially since I and others like me champion the concept of these classes so heavily.

     

    In regards to the Vanguard question - I did enjoy the Vanguard Paladin much better - but I still don't believe it was ever considered one of the best options. I'm sure someone who raided in Vanguard could correct me. I didn't raid in VG after trying to raid as a PLD in EQ.

     

     

    Bazgrim said:

    Iksar said:

    Verdic said:

    I don't think the Elf Cleric/Paladin thing is so much that people don't understand where you're coming from, as it is that Paladin's specifically are severely limited in their options. I get that there may be a very excellent reason - but even from an arithmetic stand point it seems to be forcing people into a very compromising position statistically. One of my biggest fears i've put out on this forum has been that the Paladin will be marginalized and under powered just like they were in EQ, and that its worth would be hamstrung by the development team. This definitely doesn't fill me with confidence. It's already starting out with one foot in the quicksand being limited to two races. One thats for sure going to be considered "jack of all trades, master of none." and another that will probably be the meta for that class if STR is the primary dwarven stat.

     

    Personally I can understand your concern from an EQ standpoint, as Paladin was always waaaay in the back, but there is nothing to suggest they will be underpowered in this game just by having two races available. I'd hope the team has learned a lot over the years and this time around Paladin won't simply be a weaker warrior with crappy hand-me-down cleric spells. We should just wait and see what they have in store, and what the racials are etc. 

    Once again Iksar, you are correct. If they spent as much time mulling over the combination as they said they did (and we can only assume that they did), there's literally no way that they overlooked the fact that Paladins have only two race options. The power of the Paladin will be determined in testing and not a moment earlier. You can't really say what the arithmetic standpoint is because we haven't been given ANY numbers. The amount of race options does not affect the power of a class. I understand your concern. And I know people get tired of hearing this, but it really is too early to accurately judge. Don't let your fears skew your assessment.

    • 2504 posts
    February 14, 2017 10:43 AM PST

    Verdic said:

    I realize that you are saying we don't have numbers and don't know - but in regards to *choice* specifically - the hard number is two. I want to make sure no one misses this. But I will put it on it's own line to stress it.

     

    Paladin is the only class with only two racial choices.

     

    My fears are based on the precendent it sets from a design stand point going forward. If this is the attitude that is being taken towards the class this early in design, it doesn't fill me with calm. Especially since I and others like me champion the concept of these classes so heavily.

     

    But what does this mean exactly? How is that even a negative, as I feel like I am missing something here. Yes you have less racial choices but what does that have to do with the *class* that you are worried about? I mean, Shaman in EQ had three races initially and Monk had a single one and I don't think those classes suffered at all. 

    • 4381 posts
    February 14, 2017 10:54 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Verdic said:

    I realize that you are saying we don't have numbers and don't know - but in regards to *choice* specifically - the hard number is two. I want to make sure no one misses this. But I will put it on it's own line to stress it.

     

    Paladin is the only class with only two racial choices.

     

    My fears are based on the precendent it sets from a design stand point going forward. If this is the attitude that is being taken towards the class this early in design, it doesn't fill me with calm. Especially since I and others like me champion the concept of these classes so heavily.

     

    But what does this mean exactly? How is that even a negative, as I feel like I am missing something here. Yes you have less racial choices but what does that have to do with the *class* that you are worried about? I mean, Shaman in EQ had three races initially and Monk had a single one and I don't think those classes suffered at all. 

    Again, I agree. I don't see how paladins having two racial choices sets any "precedent" and is not indicative of any "attitude" that is being taken towards the class from a "design standpoint." I'm not saying you're crazy for being worried. But still, these are assumptions. Not facts.

    • 5 posts
    February 14, 2017 11:07 AM PST

    Verdic said:

    ...

    In regards to the Vanguard question - I did enjoy the Vanguard Paladin much better - but I still don't believe it was ever considered one of the best options. I'm sure someone who raided in Vanguard could correct me. I didn't raid in VG after trying to raid as a PLD in EQ.

    Paladins did very well raiding in VG.  They were the preferred tank for some encounters, and could hold their own on the others.