Forums » News and Announcements

Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • Moderator
    • 8909 posts
    February 28, 2017 1:41 AM PST

    fazool said:

    Kilsin please share this grave discrepancy.

     

    I apologize for my peristence but simply MUST passionately argue for "my" people:

     

    Behold exceperts from the very lore of Lyone and the Halflings

    • A refreshing blend of madness and mirth

    • youthful exuberance that never dims

    • a resolute spirit that makes them undefeatable.

    • effortless stealth of a wolf

    • the devious charm of a child

    • the Ward of Flame revealed himself to me

    • them in silence for a time.

    • granted him a First Magic: to wield fire.

    • Deceiving him with a disguise herself

    • Molsth, who thought her a harmless, misguided child.

    • a great student of riddle and the tricks of the Laughing Wraith.

    • you shall fall forever silent.

     

    Halfling have the gift to wield fire.  This sounds like either be summoners or wizards.  

    Their history is silencing their enemy and using disguises while, they are living in an illusion.  

    Clearly they are INT casters and the most logical is Enchanter.

    Their lore clearly defines this caster class.

     

    People interpret the Lore differently so I wouldn't call it a discrepancy, I will leave it for Justin to explain when the time is right but I can say that in this case, Fire = Druid as Druids are natural earthly classes that control the elements.

    • 260 posts
    March 3, 2017 7:17 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Fire = Druid as Druids are natural earthly classes that control the elements.

    I'm going to take the liberty and loosely interpret this as my personal confirmation that the standard Wizard (Natural element users: Ice/Fire/Lightning, ect...) is getting a makeover, because why have two elemental users? Thanks Kilsin. :D

    • Moderator
    • 8909 posts
    March 3, 2017 9:56 PM PST

    Syntro said:

    Kilsin said:

    Fire = Druid as Druids are natural earthly classes that control the elements.

    I'm going to take the liberty and loosely interpret this as my personal confirmation that the standard Wizard (Natural element users: Ice/Fire/Lightning, ect...) is getting a makeover, because why have two elemental users? Thanks Kilsin. :D

    Why not have two? I wouldn't look to much into my explanation here, best to wait until we reveal the classes in full so you can see what we have done :)

    • 323 posts
    March 4, 2017 4:38 AM PST

    At first, when looking at certain combo's I said "Huh?"

    With a little time and consideration that Pantheon is an entirely new world, not a sequel, I have come around to thinking, "I'm beginning to like this."

    I'm truly looking forward to see what you guys have created. I like the idea of unique. The old cookie-cutter needs a new face.

    • 500 posts
    March 4, 2017 7:27 AM PST

    Klumpedge said:

     The old cookie-cutter needs a new face.

     

    That's a great way to put it. While I disagree with the idea of humans being able to do everything (which I talked about in an earlier post) I will say I'm not going to give up on trying to understand the angle VR is trying to approach. ... But it is very difficult to see how humans social/cultural atmosphere have enabled them to 'do everything'. 

     

    Good thing I plan to play a Dwarf. 

    #beardpower

    #holdmybeer

    • 281 posts
    March 4, 2017 4:42 PM PST

    One thing we need to remember with respect to the Gnomes in particular is that those who pursued the arcane the most were actually the ones who were destroyed by it.  The Gnomes who survived were those who were exiled to Skyhold.  They escaped the destruction of Elos but upon escaping were still caught up in it to an extent and were forced to abandon their mortal flesh.   

      "Foreseeing disaster, a splinter of the Gnomes petitioned the Elderhood to restrict the use of Elos Fire, pleading that the Gnomes retreat for a brief time outside the inner crust. These were called "Prophain"

      "The Prophain were exiled into a floating prison known as the Skyhold, fated to circle Elos til she consumed them."

      "Yet the Skyhold, built to lock the Prophain away until death, bore well against the lashes of Elos for a time. When a giant hole was struck straight through the crusts of Stormona, the exiled Gnomes piloted the structure through it, escaping to the quiet atmosphere of their ancestors."

    For me at least, this resonably explains why a Rogue would fit into the Gnome lore, as the ones who survived were the more cautious ones who advocated to slow down the consumption of the arcane powers given by Elos, and most probably were made up of some individuals who were totally against using it in the first place.  I realize that VR doesn't have to explain all decisions, but for me it makes more sense now.

     

    • 9 posts
    March 4, 2017 4:51 PM PST

    I guess hoping for a halfling monk was wishful thinking lol. It makes sense that they cant be though because of their size (even though monks generally  exceed their physical limitations) and their lore shows them as reckless and undisciplined


    This post was edited by drewber2814 at March 4, 2017 4:53 PM PST
    • 9 posts
    March 4, 2017 4:56 PM PST

    Syntro said:

    Kilsin said:

    Fire = Druid as Druids are natural earthly classes that control the elements.

    I'm going to take the liberty and loosely interpret this as my personal confirmation that the standard Wizard (Natural element users: Ice/Fire/Lightning, ect...) is getting a makeover, because why have two elemental users? Thanks Kilsin. :D

     

    Maybe not a make over. Generally I associate Wizards with arcane magic and not elemental magic, even though a lot of games give them elemental magic...

    • 500 posts
    March 4, 2017 11:00 PM PST

    drewber2814 said:

    I guess hoping for a halfling monk was wishful thinking lol. 

     

    I know how you feel. I was hoping for a Dwarf Monk myself. But then again, I was hoping to tank with it which wouldn't be supported. We really just need to try to fit into the molds VR is making for us. Not everyone is going to be happy, but, if you keep an open mind ... you might be surprised.

     

    -Todd

    • 643 posts
    March 5, 2017 5:26 PM PST

    tehtawd said:

    ...We really just need to try to fit into the molds VR is making for us. Not everyone is going to be happy, but, if you keep an open mind ... you might be surprised.

     

     

    It's a tricky fine line though:  they want to be unique and not follow some age-old paradigms but they are building this entire game on the basis of those of us orphaned players who want the old way.  Make it too much different and it won't be the same old way.

     

    I'm still very miffed that Halflings, whose entire lore is built around them being trpaped in the illusion of a different body and are charming and disarming, can't be enchanters.  This needs to change.

     

    • 2713 posts
    March 5, 2017 7:46 PM PST

    fazool said:

    I'm still very miffed that Halflings, whose entire lore is built around them being trpaped in the illusion of a different body and are charming and disarming, can't be enchanters.  This needs to change.

     

    Nowhere in the halfling lore does the word illusion even come up. They are cursed with a birthright affliction to stop maturing physically at adolescence. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at March 5, 2017 7:49 PM PST
    • 12 posts
    March 6, 2017 11:26 AM PST

    just curious, how would an elf shaman play within the game lore? What would that even look like? Shaman: "a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits," but the elf lore talks about the "sorrows" of "unifying with demonic beasts"..hmm..

    • 4474 posts
    March 6, 2017 12:55 PM PST

    Catenaut said:

    just curious, how would an elf shaman play within the game lore? What would that even look like? Shaman: "a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits," but the elf lore talks about the "sorrows" of "unifying with demonic beasts"..hmm..

    To answer your question about how an Elf Shaman would work in Pantheon lore, it's best to actually look to the game lore's definition of a Shaman rather than Google's definition. Shamans can vary from game-to-game. Here's Pantheon's definition: "For centuries, rumors have persisted that the mightiest of Shaman can abide in every age at once. Tales speak of a breed of masters who can discern the ancestry of friend or foe, wielding this knowledge to great benefit -- or frightful bane. But even a young Shaman can sense the threads of energy woven through Terminus’ past. A second sight draws them to the totems of those forsaken eons, in pursuit of furthering their rare power. Therefore, disciples must often abandon the norms of their civilization, as the trappings of this present age dilute their ability to draw upon the eras before it. Nevertheless, the source of this energy is obscured by those very same ages. The deepest past is the darkest shadow. And from the untrained youth to the most perceptive of Shaman, this mystery remains sealed like the marrow in their own bones." This makes no mention of evil spirits. It has much more of an emphasis on geneaology and knowledge of the past, present, and future. Several excerpts from the Elf lore show that ancestry is a big part of Elven culture:

    "Elves carry an immortal sense of how fleeting life is, born of their own brushes with total extinction."

    "To understand the Elves of Faerthale rightly, one must walk among the pages of their ancestors. It is a thick opus, full with triumphs and tragedies, begun long before their kind set upon Terminus."

    "arcane and physical prowesses as natural as the wind, rain and storm." -- suggests affinity with the elements. In many games, Shamans have spells based on controlling the elements.

    It's actually not that hard to see if you open your eyes :)


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at March 6, 2017 12:56 PM PST
    • 182 posts
    March 6, 2017 4:56 PM PST

    Of everything I love so far about this game, it is clear the majority of the playerbase disagree with the class/race matrix (myself included). With that said, they're a smart bunch at VR, so I'm dying to see what tricks or cool elements they have tied into the class/race combinations. The new Dev hinted it has something to do with the way you learn spells in Pantheon, but hopefully they aren't doing something new just to do something new! Some major restrictions and allowances going on obviously, so hopefully they know we will be as convinced/immersed into the lore as they are to want to limit our ability to play the fantasy roles people have been dying to play (15 years of waiting for some I'm sure). Being different just to be different is not efficient; but they know that! I guess I'm still just completely unsure of what they have up their sleeves.

    • 1905 posts
    March 6, 2017 5:18 PM PST

    Zuljan said:

    Of everything I love so far about this game, it is clear the majority of the playerbase disagree with the class/race matrix (myself included). With that said, they're a smart bunch at VR, so I'm dying to see what tricks or cool elements they have tied into the class/race combinations. The new Dev hinted it has something to do with the way you learn spells in Pantheon, but hopefully they aren't doing something new just to do something new! Some major restrictions and allowances going on obviously, so hopefully they know we will be as convinced/immersed into the lore as they are to want to limit our ability to play the fantasy roles people have been dying to play (15 years of waiting for some I'm sure). Being different just to be different is not efficient; but they know that! I guess I'm still just completely unsure of what they have up their sleeves.

    I think its far from a clear majority that disagree. Mostly it's just elf lovers that can't stand that elfs cant be everything they dream of.

    At least they are not being the same, just to be the same. That is not effective.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at March 6, 2017 5:22 PM PST
    • 415 posts
    March 6, 2017 6:54 PM PST

    Having been in computers for 30 years one cannot be succesful if one fears change.  I for one think that, as long as it fits the lore - Pantheon's lore, not other games' lore - I am very ok with it.  Nay! I welcome it and cannot wait!!

    • 230 posts
    March 7, 2017 12:21 AM PST

    I personally think its great to have restrictions based on lore and race. I also get that the humans get the greatest range to choose from, because they generally just want to try stuff and see if they like it, where as other races seem to be more rigid in their cultures. What I would hate to see it every race doing every class, it never made sense to me.

    Maybe it would make sense to have elements pulled in from a class that a race doesnt have? For instance, I could understand a dwarven theif learning some skills of a ranger and the like. But this would get complicated in balancing I guess.

    I dont think restrictions detract from a game and actually add to the "immersion" of the world, making if feel more realistic.

    On the whole, I am happy with the matrix and certainly willing to see how it plays.

    • 911 posts
    March 7, 2017 10:42 AM PST

    chenzeme said:

    I dont think restrictions detract from a game and actually add to the "immersion" of the world, making if feel more realistic.

    To play devil's advocate a bit here, I slightly disagree that having incredibly strong restrictions "addes to immersion".  I say "slightly disagree" because it will add to immersion for some for the first year or so, and eventually peoople will figure out which race is "best" for each class and then every warrior will be Ogre and every Paladin will be a Dwarf, and every Dire Lord will be... I think you get the picture.  Allowing other races to play other classes would allow a good player to "prove" that another race can play a class just as well (if that is going to be possible).  Regardless of how deep the lore is, once players have seen the majority of that lore, they may start prefering a specific race/class combo over another for their party once they begin the difficult encounters.  (I "personally" have yet to NOT see this in an MMORPG... I hope this game breaks that mold).

    On the flip side of that, humans being able to be "any" of the current FOURTEEN classes but other races can only be 4-8 almost instantly breaks the fantasy RP for me... like Humans are the strongest, most versatile, "master race" and the other races are too weak or ignorant  to figure out another "job".  (There can't be one discipline that came from another culture coming to terminus?  Whats preventing other races from learning other jobs if humans are smart/wise/intelligent/charimatic/enduring/agile/dextrous enough to learn them ALL?)  I understand lore is key, and I love lore, but at the end of the day we need subscribers and I'm affraid this may push away a few.  Some will say "good, we don't want players like that" but as I just stated, at the end of the day we need subscribers. Especially when there is such a restriction on race/class combos... we need as many players as we can get if the game is going to be as role-based as we would like.

    I guess we will see :)

    #DevilsAdvocate

     

    • 1905 posts
    March 7, 2017 11:06 AM PST

    Darch said:

    chenzeme said:

    I dont think restrictions detract from a game and actually add to the "immersion" of the world, making if feel more realistic.

    To play devil's advocate a bit here, I slightly disagree that having incredibly strong restrictions "addes to immersion".  I say "slightly disagree" because it will add to immersion for some for the first year or so, and eventually peoople will figure out which race is "best" for each class and then every warrior will be Ogre and every Paladin will be a Dwarf, and every Dire Lord will be... I think you get the picture.  Allowing other races to play other classes would allow a good player to "prove" that another race can play a class just as well (if that is going to be possible).  Regardless of how deep the lore is, once players have seen the majority of that lore, they may start prefering a specific race/class combo over another for their party once they begin the difficult encounters.  (I "personally" have yet to NOT see this in an MMORPG... I hope this game breaks that mold).

    On the flip side of that, humans being able to be "any" of the current FOURTEEN classes but other races can only be 4-8 almost instantly breaks the fantasy RP for me... like Humans are the strongest, most versatile, "master race" and the other races are too weak or ignorant  to figure out another "job".  (There can't be one discipline that came from another culture coming to terminus?  Whats preventing other races from learning other jobs if humans are smart/wise/intelligent/charimatic/enduring/agile/dextrous enough to learn them ALL?)  I understand lore is key, and I love lore, but at the end of the day we need subscribers and I'm affraid this may push away a few.  Some will say "good, we don't want players like that" but as I just stated, at the end of the day we need subscribers. Especially when there is such a restriction on race/class combos... we need as many players as we can get if the game is going to be as role-based as we would like.

    I guess we will see :)

    #DevilsAdvocate

    As usual, this argument against humans being all the classes is brought up with invalid reasoning. 

    Its not that other races are ignorant or that humans are the master race. It's simply that the races in these games tend to have a strong cultural identity. Humans do not. The other races have iconic things they are good at doing and they get bonuses when doing them. Humans do not. Their bonus is to be like Bards, a jack of all trades.

    People love Bards because they can do anything, but not as well. The human haters hate on humans for the same thing.

    • 2713 posts
    March 7, 2017 11:29 AM PST

    Darch said:

    To play devil's advocate a bit here, I slightly disagree that having incredibly strong restrictions "addes to immersion".  I say "slightly disagree" because it will add to immersion for some for the first year or so, and eventually peoople will figure out which race is "best" for each class and then every warrior will be Ogre and every Paladin will be a Dwarf, and every Dire Lord will be... I think you get the picture.  Allowing other races to play other classes would allow a good player to "prove" that another race can play a class just as well (if that is going to be possible).  Regardless of how deep the lore is, once players have seen the majority of that lore, they may start prefering a specific race/class combo over another for their party once they begin the difficult encounters.  (I "personally" have yet to NOT see this in an MMORPG... I hope this game breaks that mold).

     

    This actually isn't how it plays out. There are those who play the "best" race for whatever class but with possible stat caps or depreciating returns in bonus stats, all races can excel in any class. Even in EQ, by Velious gnome warriors could cap out their STR/STA and tank almost as well as an Ogre (just missing the frontal stun resist). A lot of people like playing the off the beaten path or just lesser common race/class combinations. In fact reading this thread you can see that race preferences are more important to many people regardless of how min/max they might be for any given class. Like all those crying out for Elven paladin who I bet would play one even if they had the weakest starting stats for paladin. 

    • 1905 posts
    March 7, 2017 11:33 AM PST

    Iksar said: 

    In fact reading this thread you can see that race preferences are more important to many people regardless of how min/max they might be for any given class. Like all those crying out for Elven paladin who I bet would play one even if they had the weakest starting stats for paladin. 

    They would play them anyways. But they sure would whine about it all day. It's an eleven tradition. That's why they make such good cheese, it goes well with their whine.

    • 4474 posts
    March 7, 2017 11:36 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Darch said:

    chenzeme said:

    I dont think restrictions detract from a game and actually add to the "immersion" of the world, making if feel more realistic.

    To play devil's advocate a bit here, I slightly disagree that having incredibly strong restrictions "addes to immersion".  I say "slightly disagree" because it will add to immersion for some for the first year or so, and eventually peoople will figure out which race is "best" for each class and then every warrior will be Ogre and every Paladin will be a Dwarf, and every Dire Lord will be... I think you get the picture.  Allowing other races to play other classes would allow a good player to "prove" that another race can play a class just as well (if that is going to be possible).  Regardless of how deep the lore is, once players have seen the majority of that lore, they may start prefering a specific race/class combo over another for their party once they begin the difficult encounters.  (I "personally" have yet to NOT see this in an MMORPG... I hope this game breaks that mold).

    On the flip side of that, humans being able to be "any" of the current FOURTEEN classes but other races can only be 4-8 almost instantly breaks the fantasy RP for me... like Humans are the strongest, most versatile, "master race" and the other races are too weak or ignorant  to figure out another "job".  (There can't be one discipline that came from another culture coming to terminus?  Whats preventing other races from learning other jobs if humans are smart/wise/intelligent/charimatic/enduring/agile/dextrous enough to learn them ALL?)  I understand lore is key, and I love lore, but at the end of the day we need subscribers and I'm affraid this may push away a few.  Some will say "good, we don't want players like that" but as I just stated, at the end of the day we need subscribers. Especially when there is such a restriction on race/class combos... we need as many players as we can get if the game is going to be as role-based as we would like.

    I guess we will see :)

    #DevilsAdvocate

    As usual, this argument against humans being all the classes is brought up with invalid reasoning. 

    Its not that other races are ignorant or that humans are the master race. It's simply that the races in these games tend to have a strong cultural identity. Humans do not. The other races have iconic things they are good at doing and they get bonuses when doing them. Humans do not. Their bonus is to be like Bards, a jack of all trades.

    People love Bards because they can do anything, but not as well. The human haters hate on humans for the same thing.

    Pretty much. It's not that other races aren't capable of learning other jobs - it's just that they have no interest. They feel like other things are more important. For example, Ogres have a very militaristic society so of course their population is going to consist of a higher percentage of warriors. Their bodies lend themselves toward physical combat and they have had great success with that so far, so regardless of whether or not they're capable of other studies (Ogres are actually quite intelligent) why would they even bother?

    Whether or not it breaks immersion isn't even really worth discussing because that means so many different things to so many different people. An argument could be made that there's always a possibility that a member of a culture could always break free of their societal norms and go pursue their individual passions regardless of whether or not it is considered acceptable by the other members of their race. I could conceive of a Halfling that started hanging with the wrong crowd in Thronefast and over the years learned the power of Necromancy. At the same time, I could conceive of someone seeing an Ogre Wizard and thinking "An OGRE WIZARD!?! That doesn't make sense! My immersion is broken!" lol. There's no pleasing everyone. VR is just selecting the classes that most closely fit the values of each of the racial cultures that they have created. And there's nothing wrong with that.

    • 500 posts
    March 7, 2017 8:50 PM PST

    As stated elsewhere in this thread I also do not enjoy that Humans 'can do everything'

     

    However

     

    I hate to put one of my favorite writers under the bus on this one, but, perhaps the lore for Humans doesn't stress enough points which make them a race that has thirstily drank up as much knowledge of the world than other classes. I could see stereotypical 'dwarves are for the dwarves' kind of thoughts to explain why dwarves get so little, and I didn't need the lore to express that.

     

    I'm sure VR is thinking a few things about our responses in terms of humans.

     

    1) Humans SHOULD be all classes, even if our lore doesn't spell it out. We(VR) could always stress certain things in upcoming lore.

    2) The opinions shared on the forums are valid, it doesn't make sense Humans get to do everything, and we don't want to change our lore to reflect something which doesn't seem right to us(VR) now.

    3) Party at Brad's house.

     

    My thoughts are ... they know what they are doing, they will make the best decision even if that decision isn't what everyone likes. I want the game out now, 'a decision' or lack-there-of isn't going to ruin the game. Kilsin is heavily medicating and we should all appologize to his kidneys. 

     

    -Todd

     

    • 2713 posts
    March 7, 2017 11:23 PM PST

    tehtawd said:

    I hate to put one of my favorite writers under the bus on this one, but, perhaps the lore for Humans doesn't stress enough points which make them a race that has thirstily drank up as much knowledge of the world than other classes. I could see stereotypical 'dwarves are for the dwarves' kind of thoughts to explain why dwarves get so little, and I didn't need the lore to express that.

    Now, I know everyone can interpret the lore in different ways but I offer these excepts from said lore as to their ability to do it all:

    True power speaks not a word, yet its presence is deafening. The city of Thronefast has been that presence for the Humans for nearly 500 years, and to know their heights of power is to behold the capital, a breathtaking jewel in the light of dawn. The breadth of their influence is glimpsed in the majestic navy, unrivaled on the open waters. Students and masters of nearly every art and discipline, Humans' middle-rung size and strength is perhaps a lone mediocrity, their oft flamboyant pride not withering before kings, ghouls or dragons.

     

    ...When first arriving on the continent that became Kingsreach, the frail colony was helpless under a winter so stark it was called "cursed". Only by heavy reliance upon the nearby Elves of Faerthale did they outlasted the tempest.

    ...At the time of Avendyr's death in 525 IH, the capital city had no equal in wealth or influence, no peer in beauty or acclaim, and his passing was honored across four continents.

    Over 450 years later the Humans are still prospering, though the heritage of sacrifice and service has been exchanged for vice amongst much of the aristocracy. Nevertheless, Amenthiel 'The Lady King', a true blood heir of Avendyr, has shown traits of her ancestor's character and composure.

    It starts out in the preface of Human lore saying they are the students and masters of nearly every art and discipline, which I think is pretty telling lore-wise as to why they can be every class. It then goes on to mention that in their early days on Terminus they relied upon the Elves, which I imagine they would have learned a lot from. Presumably they would have picked up Druidism and Shamanism from them, perhaps even rangering as their first city was settled in a forest. Then in time as their influence, wealth, and (I imagine) people spread across the lands, with no equal among any of the races, they are most likely above all to have picked up any other classes they may not have already had culturally during their past.


    This post was edited by Iksar at March 7, 2017 11:26 PM PST
    • 230 posts
    March 8, 2017 8:12 AM PST

    I love a good healthy debate.

    Adding to my earlier comments. I don’t see a problem with humans doing everything as they are pretty nimble and love trying anything laid out before them and (as others have stated a couple of times) their culture is not as rigid and their physiology allows them to participate easily.

    The physical, social and cultural restrictions of the other races impact naturally on the available roles for the other races. Ogres should have real problems when finger picking a lyre, for instance (all though I’m sure they could beat the hell out of a bull's skull or two and get a rhythm going and I shudder at the thought of their vocals).

    It really depends on how far this is taken. Again, taking the Ogre as an example, it makes sense that an ogre would be a frontline blitzkrieg of mayhem just from their physical stature. This doesn’t mean that they should be the only choice for a warrior, though. From a strength point of view, yup, big brute of a battering ram. From an agility point of view, though, it would have to be elves. From a steadfast point of view, then Dwarf, etc.

    Now, this leads me naturally to wanting different races implementing the same role in a different ways, using different skills and effects. An Ogre warrior, would have a larger damage arc with lots of crushing damage (if they manage a hit), whereas an elf warrior would have a smaller damage arc, but would be able to target soft areas better and do more specific damage and connect a lot more often. So an ogre would be better suited to front line crowd control and damaging lots of individuals in a single sweep maybe with a stun effect, where as an elf would be better equipped to do lots of damage in a short period to individual targets. Not hitting as many, but doing more damage to the few.

    Now I'm not saying that this is the direction that VR are going down, but this kind of setup would be very intriguing and, from a role-playing point of view, would be much more enjoyable. Each race playing the same class in different and dynamic ways.

    That, as far as I am concerned, would be the logical outcome of the Class/Race matrix. Restricted classes for races and different abilities for class depending on race (I’m a programmer so I do know how hard this would be to balance before I get flamed).


    This post was edited by chenzeme at March 8, 2017 8:32 AM PST