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Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

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    • 8618 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:00 AM PST

    Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations


    Here’s a diagram depicting our initial thoughts for Race and Class combos. This is largely based upon the current lore for each race paired with the flavor for each class. Additionally, as we continue on the road to public release (and beyond with live events and expansions), new Races, new Classes, and new combinations may become available.

    ClassRacechart4.jpg
    Some of these may stand out as a bit...well, unconventional. A quick word on a few of these:

     “The Odd Ones”

    • Ogre Druid?

      •      Our Druids are about the cycles of nature, the dance between predator and prey. Their powers draw from the forces of nature, like Lightning, Earthquakes, Wildfires, as well as the restorative and transformative sides of Nature. Think of them less as paragons of peace and some ideal of what Nature could or should be, and rather as reflecting what Nature is. Ogres fit this space as the wolf in the weeds.

    • Gnomes only have spell casters and rogues available?

      •      This is reflective of their culture. They are nearly singularly focused in their pursuit of the arcane and hidden secrets. In lieu of training in martial skills they’ve put effort in creating or summoning golems, homunculi, and other forms of false life to protect their grand works.

    • Dark Myr Bards?

      •      The Bard’s abilities aren’t limited to just buffing and uplifting their allies. Some of their songs will also demoralize foes, or manifest sonic based attacks. The Dark Myr definitely fit this side of the bard more so than most of the other “civilized” races.

    Paladin does equal Crusader. We felt the name might not fully fit what we have in mind for the class, after all, so we're going to run with Paladin.

    Bard and Necro are not official launch classes but we included them anyway as we are working hard on trying to make them launch classes, please don't hate us if we can't get them ready in time, though! :)

    Information from Justin "Istuulamae" our Loremaster:

    Hey everyone -

    Thrilled we were able to finally share our plans for race and class combinations with you all -- and field your feedback on them. I want to reiterate what Ceythos has said: these are plans, and while this is likely how we will be moving forward with the combinations it is not the absolute word on them. I also want to invite everyone to review Ceythos’ OP, because he understood some of these selections would be seen as “unconventional” and spoke good words about several of these combos.

    There is one thing that I want to humbly put forward: we are making a brand new world. Pantheon has no direct predecessor, it is not a sequel. While it may not come naturally at first, try to let this new world set your expectations of itself. Of course it’s understandable that each of us bring in expectations from our favorite games and experiences. We devs do it as much as anyone. Nevertheless I invite you all to look at these races and classes as familiar in some cases but new and distinct. It’s a practice that has helped us a lot internally, as we push ourselves to think beyond what we might assume “Must fill Box A, B or C” in any given design situation.

    One more thing: we wanted to leave ourselves room to grow within each race down the line, be that with new storylines emerging or in expansions or live events. So even if these combos stayed the same through launch, there’s no reason to think they won’t be added to thereafter.

    With that in mind I want to address some of the most common comments from a lore perspective.

    Where Have all the Crusaders Gone?

    While it hasn’t been public facing until now, internally we made the change from Crusader to Paladin I think in Q3 of last year. Without going into too much detail, we felt the name Crusader may have narrowed the scope of the class too much - and - wondered if the history of the term carried too many real-life historical connotations with it. I don’t think that the name change will alter the class at all, but like several of these decisions we wanted to have room to breathe in each instance and make a Pantheon class true to the Pantheon world.

    Why Some Casters and not All Casters?

    The simple answer here is that we looked at each of the 3 caster classes as distinct and standing on its own merit. When we did that we were able to make the connections to each race more freely and not assume “If One Then All” for each race. So Dwarves for instance -- as some have already suggested -- prize crafting and smithing to a degree that makes Enchanting a natural fit, but has nothing to do with Summoning. Once we let each arcane class have its own identity in the world, it didn’t feel right to lump them in as a One Caster Equals All Casters package.

    Dark Myr Can Sing?

    While bards are traditionally known for their upbeat and jovial qualities in MMOs, we felt that the Dark Myr presented a unique and authentic chance to broaden the scope of the class. Songs and melodies in our own world are not merely relegated to the happy side of life. As Ceythos first put it in one of our discussions, “What about the mournful power of a dirge?”

    That idea was compelling, especially in the context of the Dark Myr. A huge part of their culture was and is lamenting their history and remembering the excruciating moments after they came to Terminus…

    “Many say the cries of anguish loosed that day still linger in the murky waters…  Yet the fateful day of their arrival is marked by mourning, one week prior and one week after. Among the ceremony is a reading from ‘The Day of Testimonies’ a collection of witness accounts to the lamentable day.”

    While the lore isn’t explicit in this regard, in my mind deep and mournful songs are as much a part of the ceremonies as the readings -- which are dramatic and performed in front of the entire assembly. That aspect of weaving together the theatrical with the memorial also fits with a second answer as to why Dark Myr can be bards: the storytelling theater of song. We felt it was too narrow to exclude a troubadour aspect of the Bard. So if you can’t imagine a Dark Myr being inherently joyful, can you imagine them pretending to be, and perhaps using that skill to their advantage? Can you imagine a wanderer from the sea who learns tales of other worlds and casts a spell of song over anyone who will listen? I can, and it only deepens the sorrow and mystery of the Dark Myr.

    What About Halfling Pyros?

    There were a few ways we could’ve resolved this critical aspect of the Halfling heritage, but the one that felt the most natural was in Halfling Druids. Certain Druidic spells will include fire wielding, and for now that is the primary way Kiren’s Gift of First Magic is manifested. To wield fire is still rare and precious to the Halflings -- remember, only Marthus was given the First Magic by Kiren at that time, not all of the Kiri. While we may decide differently down the line, for now it was not a gift that was given to all or to the degree of traditional wizardry.

    We may have First Magic manifest in other ways among the Halflings, but for now it is entrusted to the Druids of Sorhiryth.

    Gnomes Gone Rogue?

    I invite everyone to review Ceythos’ OP. I’ll add to his comment that Gnomen arcane skills can be applied to physical stealth and hiding their form or disguising it. When you consider that they don’t have a fleshly body to hide in the same way an Elf might, it becomes a more natural possibility that some Gnomes  -- particularly those who are adventurous and wily -- to see their unique anatomy and stature as an advantage. An asset.

    Here again we asked the question of what is a unique but authentic way to have this race interact with the world. A small-framed, ethereal-bodied, diligent, adventurous and mystical being seemed to us to fit with the Rogue if we stepped outside of the obvious lines of their caster nature. Can you imagine a Gnome assassin darkly flashing between the shadows of a room? I can, and it keeps me up at night.

    No Elf Cleric or Pally?

    On this most consistent point of feedback I will simply say that we hear you.

    Archai Going Monk, not Ranger?

    When you think of a martial-based class who uses its body like a weapon, relies on toughness like a mountain and movements like water, doesn’t a race whose body can be made of mineral and imbued with the attributes of water seem like a pretty solid fit? Of all the comments so far, I think this one has surprised a little. It was probably one of the first class/race combo decisions we made, ages ago in fact, when I first pitched the Archai to Joppa.

    “What class fits these guys the best?” I wondered.

    “Oh, Monk. For sure,” he said.

    Then I shaved my head and drew striations all over my body with red markers, IIRC.

    Maybe I’m a bit cloudy on that last part, but you get the picture. I do believe over time Archai Monks will seem like a more natural fit to some of you. As for Rogues, bear in mind the celebratory nature of the Archai doesn’t automatically descend into haughtiness. They celebrate freedom and liberation, yes -- but also consider thoughtfulness and discernment a virtue. How they use their freedom is very important to them, because it was so hard fought to attain. They are a race that has been tested by their trials and out of them become a culture that celebrates with joyful delight, not taunting arrogance.

    ------------------

    OK, so I know there are more questions than I’ve given answers. You all are amazing and your criticisms are read many times over. All of them get consideration, even if they don’t change our decisions.

    I personally want to say how greatly I appreciate your patience with all of this. Yet I must ask for more. I’ll be back to answer new questions, and I’m going to invite Ceythos and Joppa to share their thoughts on the additional questions or comments you all have posed. Hope I’ve satisfied some of them in the meantime.

    Onward & Upward!


    This post was edited by Kilsin at February 3, 2017 4:32 AM PST
    • 645 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:13 AM PST

    A dwarven enchanter just strikes me as weird :)


    This post was edited by Sevens at February 3, 2017 4:13 AM PST
    • 29 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:26 AM PST
    Dwarven stonechanters, I guess. Seems neat to me. Ogre druid is a tough one to get around, but I get it. Love the combos!
    • 1811 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:35 AM PST

     "  There is one thing that I want to humbly put forward: we are making a brand new world. Pantheon has no direct predecessor, it is not a sequel. While it may not come naturally at first, try to let this new world set your expectations of itself. Of course it’s understandable that each of us bring in expectations from our favorite games and experiences. We devs do it as much as anyone. Nevertheless I invite you all to look at these races and classes as familiar in some cases but new and distinct. It’s a practice that has helped us a lot internally, as we push ourselves to think beyond what we might assume “Must fill Box A, B or C” in any given design situation " 

     

     

    Looks great VR !  Very nice change up :)  You guys are really pulling out all the stops !

    • 1 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:39 AM PST
    Long time backer and lurker.

    This has me excited. Not exactly what I was hoping for my Dwarven people... but options I can work with.

    Thank you much Kilsin!
    • 408 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:44 AM PST

    This is fantastic - I'm more excited by the uncommon combinations (and the lore and reasoning behind them).

    A Dark Bard has me in tingles!

    Thanks for sharing VR team, and great work.

    • 325 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:46 AM PST

    We Humans are so diverse :)

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    • 8618 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:50 AM PST

    Sevens said:

    A dwarven enchanter just strikes me as weird :)

    I added extra info after you posted but basically read what Justin has to say, he explains that we are not following traditional paths for all races like other games have done, like how we took our own path with the Gnomes, we are creating our game to fit our Lore and changes like this may seem strange to what you are use to but this is what we would like to go with. :)

    • 3 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:54 AM PST

    I love all the class/race combos, but I am slightly worried that the lack of playable races for Clerics, Rangers, and Paladins might lead to some population imbalances for those classes.  We all know how desired Clerics were in EQ and they had 7 playable races at start.  Paladins and Rangers were pretty few-and-far between in early EQ, (for a number of reasons beyond that of race selection,) but having even less races to choose from here might cause some issues. 

    I love some of the "less usual" combos, and I hope that the classes are so unique and relevant that race combos won't cause players to steer clear of them, but some players are very attached to the "classic" races such as Elves, and Halflings, and with no option to go Cleric there I worry it might cause some problems. 

    Just some thoughts. I'm glad everyone gets to see this now, and can start to plan their characters!


    This post was edited by archus at February 3, 2017 4:58 AM PST
    • 645 posts
    February 3, 2017 4:56 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Sevens said:

    A dwarven enchanter just strikes me as weird :)

    I added extra info after you posted but basically read what Justin has to say, he explains that we are not following traditional paths for all races like other games have done, like how we took our own path with the Gnomes, we are creating our game to fit our Lore and changes like this may seem strange to what you are use to but this is what we would like to go with. :)

    Oh it wasnt a complaint, just an observation. i like the fact of having non traditional race class combos. I do have one questiong about this though, If Dwarves can be chanters what is the reasoning for barring them from the Summoner or Wizard class? Not a complaint once again, just curious for a behind the scenes reasoning is all

     

    • 875 posts
    February 3, 2017 5:11 AM PST

    Sevens said:

    ... I do have one questiong about this though, If Dwarves can be chanters what is the reasoning for barring them from the Summoner or Wizard class? Not a complaint once again, just curious for a behind the scenes reasoning is all

    From what I read above :

    Kilsin said:

    Why Some Casters and not All Casters?

    The simple answer here is that we looked at each of the 3 caster classes as distinct and standing on its own merit. When we did that we were able to make the connections to each race more freely and not assume “If One Then All” for each race. So Dwarves for instance -- as some have already suggested -- prize crafting and smithing to a degree that makes Enchanting a natural fit, but has nothing to do with Summoning. Once we let each arcane class have its own identity in the world, it didn’t feel right to lump them in as a One Caster Equals All Casters package.

    and looking at the background Lore for Dwarves ...

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/dwarves/

    It seems they are

    "...the Dwarves seek not an empire, but to increase their mastery in smithing, the arcane as well as battle. .."

    and

    "...From that beacon their legacy as champions, mystics, artisans, story-tellers and unfailing companions has flourished,..."

    So I can only assume that the VR Lore team decided there was a strong rationale for Dwarves delving into enchanting etc but not having any particular interest in the arts of summoning enitites or of merely wielding elementalk power such as Wizzies (will probably) do!

    Evoras, thinks Dwarves have fat fingers though...

    • 129 posts
    February 3, 2017 5:25 AM PST

    Well, lore aside since I do understand choices made according to lore, I feel the small races of gnome and halfling are much too limited in choice of class especially when you take out the two classes that may not be available at launch.

    Ogres too.  Poor ogres don't have much choice at all.

     

    Just my 2 copper--not an argument, just how I feel.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • 645 posts
    February 3, 2017 5:35 AM PST

    Evoras said:

    Sevens said:

    ... I do have one questiong about this though, If Dwarves can be chanters what is the reasoning for barring them from the Summoner or Wizard class? Not a complaint once again, just curious for a behind the scenes reasoning is all

    From what I read above :

    Kilsin said:

    Why Some Casters and not All Casters?

    The simple answer here is that we looked at each of the 3 caster classes as distinct and standing on its own merit. When we did that we were able to make the connections to each race more freely and not assume “If One Then All” for each race. So Dwarves for instance -- as some have already suggested -- prize crafting and smithing to a degree that makes Enchanting a natural fit, but has nothing to do with Summoning. Once we let each arcane class have its own identity in the world, it didn’t feel right to lump them in as a One Caster Equals All Casters package.

    and looking at the background Lore for Dwarves ...

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/dwarves/

    It seems they are

    "...the Dwarves seek not an empire, but to increase their mastery in smithing, the arcane as well as battle. .."

    and

    "...From that beacon their legacy as champions, mystics, artisans, story-tellers and unfailing companions has flourished,..."

    So I can only assume that the VR Lore team decided there was a strong rationale for Dwarves delving into enchanting etc but not having any particular interest in the arts of summoning enitites or of merely wielding elementalk power such as Wizzies (will probably) do!

    Evoras, thinks Dwarves have fat fingers though...

    I somehow missed that paragraph comepletly...thanks!

    • 22 posts
    February 3, 2017 5:37 AM PST

    The low # of races that can be Cleric is disturbing.   I can see the race/class division cause problems for Progeny as some Races are getting the shaft on potential class picks.

    • 7 posts
    February 3, 2017 5:49 AM PST

    I can imagine the balance that a company like Visionary Realms is trying to maintain is a tough one. You want to make everyone happy in that if they've loved playing a race and class they have that option. Some of the earlier MMO's were great because you had to think about what made the most sense for you to play based on the restrictions. How were you going to traverse the landscape and interact with its inhabitants. I felt some of the failures were whent those games "opened" up those restrictions with no penalties what so ever. Dark Elf Ranger for example. Everyone wants to say let me tread my own path in this world not thinking about how tough it would be to play a race that isn't welcome in 90% of all places and those you were accepted in are now hated because of the path you chose to follow. Too much for this early in the morning perhaps.

    Ogre Druid and Elf Shaman are the odd ones in my mind so far.

    Anxiously awaiting the next tidbits of information. Excited to share this class/race with my inner circle so we can start formulating what our guild is going to look like.

     

    • 53 posts
    February 3, 2017 5:54 AM PST

    I see Bard :)

    • 477 posts
    February 3, 2017 6:16 AM PST

    Dark myr rogue? Fish are not sneaky!

    I'm assuming humans won't be the ideal race for min/max in every class option right?


    This post was edited by jpedrote at February 3, 2017 6:17 AM PST
    • 875 posts
    February 3, 2017 6:41 AM PST

    @jpedrote

    I suspect Humans are likely to be 'ideal min/maxers' for precisely zero classes hehe! Usually Human 'benefits' tend to be breadth of choice, rather than any particular stat advantage (such as you might find on a Ogre-Warrior or Gnome-Wizzy perhaps). Hence I never hold my breath in the expectation that my Human character will get any 'preference' stat-wise for any particular class!

    As for Myr Rogues ...
    ... from what I have read of the Lore, they are sneaky, underhand, disdainful of others, mean, devious, evil .....
    ... errr Rogues :)

     

    Evoras, plans to stay away from fishy Coastlines...

    • 2013 posts
    February 3, 2017 6:48 AM PST

    Thanks Kilsin. Lot of juicy info packed in to this. Some of the explanations also give extra hints on class info in the process.

    I dont see my beloved Gnome Bard on that list, but its cool. I can still play a Gnome and a Bard. Now the question is do I go Darkside? Dark Myr Bard......... hmmmmm.

    A big thanks to our Bard er Lore Master Istuulamae as well. We look forward to your continued class leaks um totally official info. ^.^

    • 73 posts
    February 3, 2017 7:02 AM PST

    Sevens said:

    A dwarven enchanter just strikes me as weird :)

     

    First thing that came to my mind reading this.

    • 149 posts
    February 3, 2017 7:06 AM PST

    Thank you for this class/combo breakdown! Something to dig our teeth into.

    I like what I'm seeing. Some unique combos for sure. Really interested in the Ogre Druid. Cleric does seem to be a little thin. I would think Elves would be more suited for clerics than Shamans. 

    But the real oddball for me is Skar Monk. Skar are such a violent race. It seems at odds with the inner peace required for the monk discipline.

    • 40 posts
    February 3, 2017 7:10 AM PST

    Was hoping for a few more combinations for Summoner, though Elf was not one I was expecting so at least I have another option to consider. I'm not the biggest fan of elves overall, so I'll probably stick with going Gnome but was hoping Dwarves would have more available to them. Either way, great to see some thoughts hashed out and being able to have a better idea of where to go from here. My only real complaint is it seems like some classes may have some very low play counts based off these limitations.

    • 86 posts
    February 3, 2017 7:14 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    Dark myr rogue? Fish are not sneaky!

    I'm assuming humans won't be the ideal race for min/max in every class option right?

     

    There are PLENTY of ambush predator fishes. :)

    • 1179 posts
    February 3, 2017 7:26 AM PST

    Yeah...I think fish are pretty sneaky, actually.  LOL.

     

    People have been saying they are worried that some combinations won't get played very much.  I don't think that's really a bad thing.  I wouldn't expect there to be a perfect balance.  I think each class will have a race that is most popular, and I'm fine with that.  It's nice to see that unusual combination once in a while.  I guess it could be an issue if races were severely underplayed, but I think the races with few class options have at least one option that they do very, very well.

    • 177 posts
    February 3, 2017 7:52 AM PST

    I'm surprised you didn't mention the most obvious reason for Dark Myr Bard.... WHALE SONG!

    On a more serious note... the main issue I have with the Gnome classes is it restricts them to 2 of the 4 roles. Surely their lore would fit with allowing them a class that fits into at least one more role.