Forums » The Dire Lord

Dark Knight and Shields

    • 52 posts
    April 23, 2017 3:13 PM PDT

    Vilebeast said:

    Why shouldn't any of us be able to build the Direlord as we want...

    That is because Pantheon is not a "build your character 100% way you want" game. Each class has a specific theme as deemed by the developer. 

    • 16 posts
    April 23, 2017 3:56 PM PDT
    I think you may have missed my thoughts and hopes for character development. I still think there atleast be some wiggle room for play styles. Even still being proficient in most weapons, says that we will be able to play with the toons as we like, hopefully without hurting a group.
    • 1644 posts
    April 23, 2017 4:34 PM PDT

    I believe there is room for a DPS spec for Dire Lords. There will be times when groups have two tanks.

    • 600 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:56 AM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    I believe there is room for a DPS spec for Dire Lords. There will be times when groups have two tanks.

    I'm sure there DL is be tanks and that it simply becuase they have stated many times that you will have a role and only be able to run that role with that particular class 

    Tank: DL, PAL, WAR

    DPS: Monk, Rogue, Ranger, Summoner, Wizard

    Healer: Shaman, Druid, Healer

    plus "spec" is like the talent point system WoW uses, granted could knoght have abilities used more for offensive purposes sure they could but i see it being far an few between becuase they are a tank class and not a dps class.

    • 1644 posts
    April 25, 2017 2:46 PM PDT

    Actually, each class will have specializations to choose from.

    And they have implied that each class will also have some lesser abilities in another role, such as DPS classes minor ing in crowd control.

    • 600 posts
    April 25, 2017 3:30 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Actually, each class will have specializations to choose from.

    And they have implied that each class will also have some lesser abilities in another role, such as DPS classes minor ing in crowd control.

    You can have specialization of weapons and such without running into other roles, like small stuns and such i don't count as CCing but just a way to block a spell from casting or such things like this CCing to be in like a root, long duration stuns, mezzes and such like this where it prevents anything from happening for lengthy periods of time so you can focus on another target while they are stuck in one position, in fact small stuns and petty little things like this i would prefer to be more like interrupts and such.

    • 43 posts
    April 25, 2017 3:34 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Actually, each class will have specializations to choose from.

    And they have implied that each class will also have some lesser abilities in another role, such as DPS classes minor ing in crowd control.

     

    Has anything more been said about specializations since the kickstarter class descriptions which we've been told are likely wrong now?  Are we sure they're still in scope?

    • 3218 posts
    April 25, 2017 3:43 PM PDT

    snappa said:

    Beefcake said:

    Actually, each class will have specializations to choose from.

    And they have implied that each class will also have some lesser abilities in another role, such as DPS classes minor ing in crowd control.

     

    Has anything more been said about specializations since the kickstarter class descriptions which we've been told are likely wrong now?  Are we sure they're still in scope?

    This is pretty much all we know:

    From the FAQ:

    2.6 Will there be skill-trees that make a class very different, or will it be level 12 warrior = level 12 warrior?

    Pantheon is a traditional level based system with skills and abilities that are unlocked and practiced as you level up. Some customization and specialization will be present, but never to the point where a warrior ceases to be a warrior.

    • 65 posts
    April 28, 2017 1:44 PM PDT

    A few things most of this is my opinion as we dont know for 100% what the specs or abilities for this class will be like currently. 

    First, i think to some degree you will be able to build your tank how you see fit. If you want to lose all the AC gear in favor of Str or Hps ect you can build your class as you want. Granted it might cause hardship for your healier if you cant mitigate some of the damage but hey, build as you see fit. On a side note have any of you old school players  invited a tank that was 1 always out of endurance 2 taking a large amount of damage from normal pulls or 3 had zero idea how to control agro from normal pulls. Some of this goes back to being geared and knowing your class well enough to handle whatever zone your grouping up to deal with. Gear on a tank is almost as important as gear on a healier. 

     

    Second, i think to a lesser degree once you sign on playing a tank your main role should be/will be to tank, so your damage really should not matter. Your Main Objective is to stay alive and hold agro so the DPS classes in your group can slowly chew away on the mob/mobs. That being said could you if you wanted, tank a boss/named mob with a 2h weapon. Sure why not providing you can stay alive and hold agro i dont see a reason why it couldnt be done.

     

    • 321 posts
    April 29, 2017 9:46 AM PDT

    If we use EQ and Vanguard as examples of how this may be handled (and knowing there is an ability limit in memorization)

     

    It is very possible via Stances, weapon selection, and spell selection a dire lord could go "dps mode", I doubt it would be a full DPS class worth but would be maybe 80% (throwing a rough number out there idk) or something, so if they are in a group with another tank (which happens, but min/maxers are going to avoid) there isn't a massive loss.

     

    I played a paladin and SK in EQ and there were many times as a Paladin, I was the Puller/CC for the group via Roots/stuns/blinds/paci, and on my SK if I wasnt tanking I was DPS/Pulling. This involved a different spellset up then if i were tanking (and probably how it would logically be handled in Pantheon since they said there will be no Hotswapping of spells IE: spellswapping mid combat).

     

    Also some of you either don't remember or weren't playing optimally in early EQ, because 2handers were far and away the best option for either of the knight classes because shield AC in the early era didn't have a major bonus like it would later on in the games lifespan. The swing aggro + dps increase almost always outweighed the minor (and it was absolutely minor or nonexistant until they fixed the AC hardcap in Late Velious/early Luclin) Mitigation gains.

     

    It wasn't until Planes of Power when Knight 1handers and tank shields gained power (through mudflation) that Sword and Board was even a viable option for an endgame player of either of the knight classes. (especially when 2handers got bumped up in relative power in Velious) 

     

    Thats just my 2 cents.


    This post was edited by Sunmistress at April 29, 2017 9:49 AM PDT
    • 5 posts
    April 29, 2017 10:29 AM PDT

    Shucklighter said:

    Shai said:

    Shucklighter said:

    I don't think the option to use 2H weapons should be taken from Crusaders and Dire Lords, though...

    I don't think anybody's suggesting that anything should be taken away from anybody.  The question that interests me is: should "knight-themed" classes get as much defensive benefit from a 2-handed (2H) weapon as from a Shield.  I think they probably did in EQ.  I assert that they probably shouldn't in Pantheon.

    I also think that they should get more offensive benefit from a 2-Handed weapon, than from a shield.

     

    Restated.  For "Knights:"

    Defensive Benefit: Shield > 2H > Dual Wielded One-handers

    Offensive Benefit: 2H > Shield > Dual Wielded One-handers

     

    I don't recall using a two-handed weapon over a shield ever giving a Paladin or a Shadowknight a defensive advantage in EverQuest.  Sure, the epics allowed bashing without a shield, but even the Paladin Epic had much less AC than contemporary shields.  I think using a shield was the way to go when it came to mitigation.  I guess aggro might be a different story, but we are talking defense and mitigation here. 

     

    I definitely agree with you that using a shield should give you a defensive advantage over using a two-handed weapon and I hope it works that way in PRF.

     

    Palladius from Vulak'Aerr in NTOV during Velious xpac. If I recall it was the highest ac/hp/dex/agi option, and with the higher delay you ate less ripostes. Plus the fact the lifesteal proc was unresistable made it huge for tanking. It literally made 1h/shield obsolete after obtaining.

    • 282 posts
    April 10, 2018 12:41 PM PDT

    Sooo. Regarding Bazgrim's interview with Joppa ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vebn1AN6KY ), we now know that the Dire lord will use exclusivement weapon with edges, as they may need to draw blood from the ennemies before using it for their own magic.

     

    The flavor mensionned included using a two handed weapon, and also two weapons. Nothing was mensionned about the shield, and only different bonuses beeing using one two handed or two one handed weapons, inclused while tanking.

    I think it's fair to assume the Dire lord at this point is designed not to use shield, and to focus on an agressive style to maintain defense, which kind of appeal me.

    • 11 posts
    April 10, 2018 3:20 PM PDT

    Tiburon said:

    Vanguard addressed this by creating stances. The stances for defensive would enable certain abilities to only be used while in defensive stance and only with a sword and board. This made tanking and skills associated with it realvant when you were defensive, and alternately when you were in offensive mode using a 2hnder you had skills that were only associated with that and obviously doing damage.

     

    I know I do not want stance dancing... If thats what you mean... Two handed tanking sounds amazing

    • 39 posts
    April 11, 2018 4:18 AM PDT

    Dont be scared about tanking with a two handed weapon. Our MT in VG was a Dread Knight with a two handed weapon. :)

     

    APW


    This post was edited by Zazazuu at April 11, 2018 4:18 AM PDT
    • 481 posts
    April 11, 2018 2:55 PM PDT
    This topic is very aesthetic heavy. While I want the function to use a shield or not on direlord I am open to a new interpretation as well.

    First. Let it be said the Samurai used heavy armor and a twohanded sword (among other arsenal). They were knights from another country who did not typically use shields but were very effective in fighting. The shield was their heavy armor.

    As a person familiar with actual medieval combat I can tell you how much benefit one will give you, but I also am trained in Katana.

    The tip of a two handed weapon is your shield. Anyone getting into your range presses up against this shield. Zoning is important. That is why I think it very possible to tank with a 2hander. Heavy armor is key, but so is zone control.

    Lets not forget magic. Magic can be a shield for some.

    -Todd
    • 13 posts
    April 12, 2018 7:48 PM PDT

    I agree almost entirely with the folks who believe that shields should be for the knight who wants to maximize their mitigation, in all cases, except for the one subject for which this discussion is being held: the Dire Lord. The Dire Lord's blood letting magic blah blah puts them in the same arena as ringwraiths and other high fantasy evil knights, imo. Their mitigation should be supernaturally linked to their presence in battle, and I believe that their ability to tank should improve as the weapon they wade into battle with becomes more intimidating, whether it be one handed, two handed, etc. :)

    • 184 posts
    April 13, 2018 1:03 PM PDT

    I think we can let the Dire Lord not use shields quite easily and logically. DL's utilize blood magic, they can heal themselves with it, using a 2h or DW lets you let out more blood, which means more healing, and therefore effectively more mitigation, just not a direct damage reduction.


    This post was edited by Youmu at April 13, 2018 1:03 PM PDT
    • 321 posts
    April 13, 2018 1:59 PM PDT
    There could also be blood magic related "shields" But more like a forcefield type effect.

    Lord Soth from Dragonlance (what I think of when I think Dreadlord) didn't need no shield.

    And what was said before.

    A skilled user of a 2handed weapon can easily dispatch one with a shield and sword, distance control is paramount.

    Add magic and other fantasy elements in, and there is very little reason to be locked I to the "tank must use shield or else" outlook.
    • 219 posts
    April 15, 2018 12:25 AM PDT
    Such excellent news! Thrilled this is the direction theyre taking with the DL.
    • 481 posts
    April 16, 2018 7:58 PM PDT

    Sunmistress said: A skilled user of a 2handed weapon can easily dispatch one with a shield and sword, distance control is paramount.

     

    Actually its the other way around. In actual combat the shield transforms people into much braver attackers. 9 times out of ten the person who has the shield will be victorious. Push in to bate an attack then dispatch them after you block it.

     

    As a matter of strategy you would want a shield buddy in front of a polearm or other two handy. What happens is when the large weapon strikes out it creates openings for your shield buddies who can approach faster and safer to take advantage of the openings.

    -Todd

     

    • 321 posts
    April 16, 2018 8:36 PM PDT
    I was talking a one v one. I can't see 9 to 1 odds on a shield/sword beating a 2hander (I was envisioning spear in my previous post, but I could see long sword doing well as well)

    As long as the 2hand user can keep the sword and board user In their killbox, and stay out of the others, I just can't see it happening.

    In a small skirmish or a squad or larger based tactical system, yeh that makes sense.

    • 184 posts
    April 17, 2018 7:01 AM PDT

    Having sparred 2h-sword vs shield I can say with high confidence, shield has the advantage, by a lot. You would need a really massive sword (zweihänder style, 5'7 or longer) to be on par, something like a spear would have a better time but still hard and I would give the advantage to the shield still. It isn't about the shield blocking then striking, the real devious thing is that they can block and strike at the same time, in a single moment. And should you have a reach advantage, they can just press in to close range where you with the longer weapon cannot do much. A shield user can safely go into and past this "killbox".

    • 481 posts
    April 17, 2018 7:31 AM PDT

    Youmu said:

    Having sparred 2h-sword vs shield I can say with high confidence, shield has the advantage, by a lot. You would need a really massive sword (zweihänder style, 5'7 or longer) to be on par, something like a spear would have a better time but still hard and I would give the advantage to the shield still. It isn't about the shield blocking then striking, the real devious thing is that they can block and strike at the same time, in a single moment. And should you have a reach advantage, they can just press in to close range where you with the longer weapon cannot do much. A shield user can safely go into and past this "killbox".

     

    This is correct. The reason i brought up a cooperative example is because that is where you see these weapon types which are heavier shine brightly. Heavy handed weapons can be super effective if you support them with guard.

     

    zweihänder i have used and trained in. Well, only in the way a horsecutter is used. I have effectively used that heavy weapon against sword and 'bored' opponents. Theres a few tricks there. But its very obvious id rather have a shield and flail.

    You know whats a good twohander? A big freakin flail. Like a twohanded flail. Thatl suprise a shieldwall.

     

    -Todd

    • 184 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:04 AM PDT

    The general way of big two handed weapoins like zweihänders and pole-weapons like haberds and glaives deal with shields is, GO FOR THE LEGS, or FEINT FOR LEGS AND GO FOR HEAD.

    • 321 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:12 AM PDT
    I've only ever sparred with Naginata and Spears vs a 1hander and board, and thinking about your points I think perhaps my opinion was formed mainly based on anecdotal evidence, and I think I can envision against higher or equally skilled opponents you guys are probably correct.

    I do stand by my opinion that in a world where magic exists though, a shield isn't necessarily going to be needed as a rule.