Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

You're in *their* world now

    • 110 posts
    January 16, 2017 1:36 PM PST

    It's a tale that should have been triumphant but turned into a tragedy -- one that I shared with Aradune before I decided to invest in Pantheon.

    When Sword Coast Legends was in development a few years ago, my husband was geeked out to the fullest. As a longtime D&D DM, he was excited that he may actually get a chance to translate his hobby into a video game. This was especially exciting on his end since his gaming buddies had gone their separate ways across several states. So we invested in the game. Many people would say "bougt into early access," but we both believe that pre-paying for games is like any other investment -- it could go up (be a success) or down (fail).

    So here was tiny N-Space, a company that specialized in helping to build other people's games, given the opportunity to produce its first game on its own. And this tiny enclave of D&D geeks in Orlando, Florida, were given the opportunity of a lifetime. However, as time went on, the weight of individual expectations from fans weighed down on the company like a ton of bricks.

    But first, there was the rush of expectations of meeting timelines from WotC. They had a schedule, and content had to be finished to meet with current storyline deadlines in the Sword Coast world. (Luckily for VR, they don't have an outside entity pushing timelines, which is one of the reasons I invested in Pantheon.)

    But then as the timelines stretched and people were left wanting more, the complaints started. Constructive criticism is never a bad thing -- ever. But what started the ultimate downfall of the game and N-Space itself was the unrealistic expectations from some D&D fans and how they flat-out refused to compromise on anything. But in the world of the internet, it only takes one lone voice to start a rumor, then a panic, then a witch-hunt, ending in the deafinging silence of an empty space.

    I'm writing this because I'm starting to see the same thing here on these boards, and it's worrying me.

    In the past few months, I've seen topics sprout up with absolutes guiding the discussion instead of open-minded debate. "If Pantheon has this, I won't play." "If Pantheon doesn't have this, I won't play." "If Pantheon doesn't prevent this, I won't play." "If Pantheon prevents this, I won't play."

    In a world where indy developers bring in their player base to act as a sounding board, some players forget they're making a game for everyone, not just an individual player. They're not making Jimmy's Pantheon, Suzie's Pantheon, and 50,000 other versions of the game.

    It's like the original tag line to EverQuest: "You're in our world now." Notice how it doesn't say, "You're in your own little world now." Just like the real world, the world is what it is and we have to forge our way through it, not expect it to mold to each person's expectations. But that's what made playing a game like EverQuest so interesting. When the game launched, players were given carte blanche to forge their way in the world. There were people who stayed in home towns and RPed. There were people who raced to Level 55 (and on and on) for a number of reasons (the challenge, the rush, the competitveness, the ego, etc.) There were people who did every quest but didn't give a tinker's cuss about the storyline or the quest information. There were people who soloed. There wre people who multi-boxed. There were people who grouped with the same three people every day. All of these people thoroughly enjoyed EQ in their own ways. It was like going to a sporting event, looking throughout the crowd, and enjoying how many people from different walks of like were there enjoying the same thing at the same time.

    But even back then, there were differences of opinion. Some people thought that if you didn't say "thee" and "thou" during quest chat, you were doing it wrong. Then there were those who thought that if you weren't raiding on a nightly business and competing to be the top guild, you were doing it wrong. The difference back then was people just had their opinions and it was OK. Nobody took their toys and went home because they saw someone playing in a different style.

    I'm not asking anyone to change their opinions on any subject contained within these boards. The beauty of opinions is everyone is entitled to their own. However, I would ask you as fellow members of these boards, I'd ask you to please have an open mind with other people's opinions and with the game itself. VR is never, ever going to be able to craft a game that suits every single want/wish/need of every person who will play the game. That means we the players have to remember to allow for some things we as individuals don't care for in order for the game to exist in the first place.

    I don't want to see VR become the next N-Space ... an indy company forced to close down when gamers didn't get their way with unrealistic individual expectations. I want to see them succeed with all of us ending up with a game we can be proud to call home, even if it's not our perfect idea of what home should be.

    • 3016 posts
    January 16, 2017 1:45 PM PST

    Yep you can't please all of the people all of the time.    VR has the last word on any change, or new addition to the game, what works.    We can submit our ideas, or play around with conjecture,  in the end..its what fits with the VR vision that will win out.     (thanks Lghtngfan, this has been on my mind too.)  And of course,  WE ALL want what's good for the game and the game future. :)

    • 1778 posts
    January 16, 2017 1:59 PM PST
    Well said Lghtngfan.
    • 839 posts
    January 16, 2017 2:08 PM PST

    Great post bud, the "You're in our world now" tag line always summed it up perfectly and especially says to me that this world is going to be dangerous and you will have to find a way to survive and thrive in the world with nothing but your powers and the community of others at your side!

    • 138 posts
    January 16, 2017 2:16 PM PST

    Lghtngfan said:

     

    It's like the original tag line to EverQuest: "You're in our world now." Notice how it doesn't say, "You're in your own little world now." Just like the real world, the world is what it is and we have to forge our way through it, not expect it to mold to each person's expectations. But that's what made playing a game like EverQuest so interesting. When the game launched, players were given carte blanche to forge their way in the world. There were people who stayed in home towns and RPed. There were people who raced to Level 55 (and on and on) for a number of reasons (the challenge, the rush, the competitveness, the ego, etc.) There were people who did every quest but didn't give a tinker's cuss about the storyline or the quest information. There were people who soloed. There wre people who multi-boxed. There were people who grouped with the same three people every day. All of these people thoroughly enjoyed EQ in their own ways. It was like going to a sporting event, looking throughout the crowd, and enjoying how many people from different walks of like were there enjoying the same thing at the same time.

    ..................

    I'm not asking anyone to change their opinions on any subject contained within these boards. The beauty of opinions is everyone is entitled to their own. However, I would ask you as fellow members of these boards, I'd ask you to please have an open mind with other people's opinions and with the game itself. VR is never, ever going to be able to craft a game that suits every single want/wish/need of every person who will play the game. That means we the players have to remember to allow for some things we as individuals don't care for in order for the game to exist in the first place.

    <-------- I especially liked these parts!!

    • 159 posts
    January 16, 2017 2:17 PM PST
    Completely agree. I posted similar (but way less articulate) on a thread about complete custom gear slots for shaman only in the classes section.
    • 219 posts
    January 16, 2017 2:18 PM PST

    @Lghtngfan......... +100 on your post. Well said and thanks for sharing.

    • 35 posts
    January 16, 2017 3:00 PM PST

    Posts like this bring a stirring to ones loins.

    Splendidly constructed and said.

    • 323 posts
    January 16, 2017 3:04 PM PST

    Well said, and thank you for your thoughts.  I agree generally with your sentiment, but I'll quibble with the absolutism.  There really are some game elements/mechanics that would drive me and other players away.  To use an example from your post, if my server's economy is destroyed by botted/multi-boxed mage armies (or the PRF equivalent), I may simply stop playing the game.  To use another example, if cross-server dungeon queues are introduced into the game, and the grouping experience becomes similar to the current WoW grouping experience, I would likely stop playing the game, as I have stopped playing WoW.  There really are some dealbreakers for me and, I expect, for others.  Unlike real life, I can choose whether or not to live in "their world" of Terminus.  And if their world is poorly designed and unenjoyable, I will choose not to.  I think it's fine to express these sentiments on a message board like this one. 

     

    Edit:  I re-read my post and thought it comes across as too negative.  Just to be clear, I am a backer of the game and have the highest hopes for it.  My disagreement was merely about the proper scope of debate in a forum.


    This post was edited by Gnog at January 16, 2017 3:05 PM PST
    • 68 posts
    January 16, 2017 3:59 PM PST

    Im quitting this game because you made this post.

    • 1618 posts
    January 16, 2017 4:09 PM PST

    They have repeatedly stated that the game might not be for everyone. I just hope it's for me.

    • 17 posts
    January 16, 2017 6:08 PM PST

    Great food for thought. Thank you for posting!

    • 58 posts
    January 16, 2017 7:22 PM PST
    Good post I completely agree.
    The devs can't please everyone but they have to make sure that everything fits in the mechanics and the lore so really I am paying for this type of game. All I can do is share ideas if they make it in woohoo bonus hehe

    Peeps if you want to have a game like you want it then go make one ☺
    • 780 posts
    January 16, 2017 7:28 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    They have repeatedly stated that the game might not be for everyone. I just hope it's for me.

     

    Yeah, I think that's how we all feel.  That's what's kind of funny about it.  Luckily for me, the tenets pretty much prevent all of the things that will make me leave the game.  I'm also very confident that this game is going to be released and be successful.

    • 3852 posts
    January 16, 2017 7:49 PM PST

    Good post. It is certain that if the game makes it to release it will have things I really like and things I ...don't.

    Most of my posts here try to focus on two things - getting a game done the way I want it, and getting a game done the way I think it will attract enough players to be a success. When I see the two conflicting I almost always argue for the latter over the former. A good game that succeeds is a whole lot better than a much better game that fails. I'll never forget Wizardry 9 and Jagged Alliance 3 (neither made it to release Sir-tech went belly-up). I don't want VR to follow them into ...should I say it ...why not ...oblivion.

    • 1399 posts
    January 16, 2017 7:56 PM PST

    @Lghtngfan thank you for this, great post

    • 1860 posts
    January 16, 2017 10:22 PM PST

    That post makes me wish there was a "like" button.  Nice post.

    • 93 posts
    January 16, 2017 10:55 PM PST

    Thank you Lghtngfan, well said.

    I have to put my hand up and say that I have posted before stating that if X happens I wont play.  After receiving a stern but polite response from Kilsin I realised that what I had said was just a shitty thing for me to say.  So apologies for that.

    The effort and passion for this game by VR is apparent and they are very open to our suggestions.  All we need to do is give the feedback in a respectful way and trust that VR will get the job done, to make something special.

    At times I think our excitement for this adventure can get the better of us and our own passion for what we want can overflow a bit and perhaps cause some of us to be to blunt in our replies.  

    This adventure will be different for me as I haven't really ever played an mmo like this.  I had Vanguard, but didn't play much, so unsure how that compares with the likes of EQ in its heyday.

    *salute*

    ~~~ <()> ~~~
    Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
    my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
    my wrath undoes the wicked!
    <~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>

    • 393 posts
    January 17, 2017 3:18 AM PST

    Thanks so much for sharing Lghtngfan.

    Your words have well intentioned meaning and remind me to keep grounded and take this shared journey with an open mind. 

    Huzzah!

    • 67 posts
    January 17, 2017 3:22 AM PST

    Thumbs up! 

    • 624 posts
    January 17, 2017 4:00 AM PST

    Passion-sparked debate

    Shows fervor of the fallen

    We all wish to rise

    • 1303 posts
    January 17, 2017 6:00 AM PST

    @Lghtngfan 

    There are so many great points in your post. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it. 

    • 72 posts
    January 17, 2017 10:25 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    They have repeatedly stated that the game might not be for everyone. I just hope it's for me.

    i am sure it will be. If your into actually having to use skill and take time to learn, then this game is for you. If you like to have everything pretty much handed to you, then WoW is your game. 

    • 19 posts
    January 17, 2017 10:36 AM PST

    @Lghtngfan

    I took have noticed this, specifically the last few weeks.  You echo my exact thoughts with one exception....

    Let's Go Red Wings!  :)

    • 110 posts
    January 17, 2017 10:51 AM PST

    Thank you so much everyone for the kind words! I've been wanting to write this for weeks, but I was so afraid that it wouldn't come out right and you guys would take it the wrong way. A couple of things:

    beautifully - I see what you did there ;)

    shasta - I think beefcake's response is a pretty mature way of looking at Pantheon. As much as I hope that it'll be the game for him, it very well may not be -- and there's nothing wrong with that. That's what the devs have been championing all along. I'd rather beefcake try the game, not like it, and go on his merry way instead of him sitting and stewing in a game that he doesn't like and badmouthing it in every public forum because it wasn't designed for his needs. Also, there's nothing wrong with liking games that have new-world mechanics with exclamation-pointed quest-givers and linear storylines. I much prefer an open-world style game, but I won't look down on anyone who likes the other kind. Two of my coworkers (both in their 50s) just said as much yesterday -- they prefer WOW because they don't have the time in their day to sit there and find quest-givers. They want to get their quests, do their thing, and then leave the game. Their enjoyment comes from hanging out with each other and accomplishing things, not the actual story.

    Jasper - All ur Yzerman r belong to us! ;p