Kilsin said:There is a nice mix here and most of you agree with a good mix of many options, on Facebook a tonne of people want a mix except are bitterly against having it auto update! :D
Agreed. No auto update.
I liked how EQ1 did it. You could buy most spells at the vendors, but not all spells were available at a single city. To get some spells, it required you having to travel or trade with other players who made the journey. Some spells were crafted. Some spells were dropped by mobs. Some spells were quest rewards. Later, some spells were acquired by turning in quest items dropped by raid bosses or crafted from raid components.
So a good mix like that I think would be good for Pantheon. Having all of your class's spells should be something you work towards, and feel accomplished when you finally fully complete your spell book. There is no sense of value when you get all of your abilities handed to you for free.
I'd like to see spells and abilities learned at low levels from their training NPC ect.
Once you start to get into your 20's, then some of your spells/abilities need to be gained via quests or mob drops.
High level, once again allow some to be bought, and make some spells/abilities require time and effort to acquire via epic quests and battles.
Abacda said:I actually preferred the Everquest way. you only get new ones every 4th or 5th new level and they weren't automatically available. You had to seek them out from trainers, merchants, mob drops and quests. I liked that if you were close to the spell level you'd fill a bag with spell scrolls so you were prepared for the DING...
I agree that spell circles were more exciting than getting new spells every level or two. I'd love to go back to something like that.
Inar said:Agreeing with most of you, about a mixture of ways to gain abilities, I think that "auto update" might be a good addition to it.
I think that by swinging a sword enough times, you might gain knowledge by yourself, about better ways / different ways to use it, and not always need a trainer for it.
So some kind of "the more you use it, the more skills you might discover" thing, might be a nice add.
While I definitely don't want to level and get a bunch of 'You have learned' spam, I think Inar has a good point here. Maybe some spells that are basically more advanced versions of other spells could be learned this way. So, maybe you get Stinging Swarm at Level 14, and after you cast it so many times, you figure out Creeping Crud. You could cap the advances per level and make it so the earliest you could discover Creeping Crud is Level 24, but if you ding 24 and haven't been using Stinging Swarm, it's gonna be a while before you discover Creeping Crud.
Inar said:Agreeing with most of you, about a mixture of ways to gain abilities, I think that "auto update" might be a good addition to it.
I think that by swinging a sword enough times, you might gain knowledge by yourself, about better ways / different ways to use it, and not always need a trainer for it.
So some kind of "the more you use it, the more skills you might discover" thing, might be a nice add.
Hmm, so to this point I consider this skill vs. ability, however... maybe they could have a few select abilities that unlock based off skill. IE - Maybe a Ranger as to be X Tracking skill to learn Track Bird, Track Human, Track Beast... Maybe a Warrior has to be X Skill Level with swords before they can learn to off a sword in their off hand, or aka dual wield.
I'm not in favor of having spells upgrade automatically. This is mostly because those more powerful versions of the spell should be more difficult to acquire IMO.
I think it should depend on the spell.
I played a Mage as my main in EQ. It seemed a bit unnecessary to get a new copy of each of the four pet spells every 4-5 levels when the only difference was the level and stats. I think stuff like this it's probably okay to just acquire once and then have them scale with you.
Staples I would say should in general be vendor purchased. Unique spells could be quest rewards, researched, or dropped.
The important thing though is I think every class's base kit should be available through vendors/trainers. I remember when PoP came out and the new line of pet spells were acquired through parchment turn-ins (which were random). You could be unlucky and make it to 65 and not even have your upgraded pets. Something like that should definitely be avoided.
I would like to see ancient spells that would be perception based. The player has to use clues from lore books dropped from the world to find ancient battle sites, ruins, natural landmarks, locations, cities etc. They search the areas for these lore book clues. They discover parts and pieces that they have to assemble in a Lore library by turning them into a lore master of their home town or other race lore libraries if they are not KOS.
Exploration based spell rewards. These wouldn't have to be spells that you need to kill anything for......but more exploration searching the world of Terminus finding hidden passages, under rocks, Secret rooms, cubby, city sewers passages, treasure chest underwater, tops of spires,.....neat places that you would not think to look in the world of Terminus..... Almost like an Epic spell quest.
I like a lot of the suggestions already.
Lower tiers: Merchants
Middle tiers: Crafted
Higher tiers: Crafted from rare drops or dropped themselves
Epic Spells: Exploration using lore books, guides, traveling.
Dalinsia said:I would like to see ancient spells that would be perception based. The player has to use clues from lore books dropped from the world to find ancient battle sites, ruins, natural landmarks, locations, cities etc. They search the areas for these lore book clues. They discover parts and pieces that they have to assemble in a Lore library by turning them into a lore master of their home town or other race lore libraries if they are not KOS.
Exploration based spell rewards. These wouldn't have to be spells that you need to kill anything for......but more exploration searching the world of Terminus finding hidden passages, under rocks, Secret rooms, cubby, city sewers passages, treasure chest underwater, tops of spires,.....neat places that you would not think to look in the world of Terminus..... Almost like an Epic spell quest.
I like a lot of the suggestions already.
Lower tiers: Merchants
Middle tiers: Crafted
Higher tiers: Crafted from rare drops or dropped themselves
Epic Spells: Exploration using lore books, guides, traveling.
I love the exporation idea, and the Anicent Spells sound really neat as well!
I agree with many others here but wellspring summerized it well. I used to like buying my spells early in EQ and then having them on me when I was in a group. I had to earn them and if I leveled I would immediately have them on me to scribe.
I'm against auto learning of spells and abilities.
I agree with most here.
Some spells should be tied to faction (class and/or diety faction for example).
High level spells (or associated components) should be dropped from elite mobs or otherwise researched.
Personally I would like to see a move away from instant leveling procurement or spell vendor methods.
ArchMageSalamar said: I agree with many others here but wellspring sunrises it well. I used to like buying my spls early in EQ and then having them on me when I was in a group. If I leveled I would immediately have them on me to scribe.
Before I had some alts I often didn't have enough money to buy all the spells. I had to choose a few.
Dalinsia said:I would like to see ancient spells that would be perception based. The player has to use clues from lore books dropped from the world to find ancient battle sites, ruins, natural landmarks, locations, cities etc. They search the areas for these lore book clues. They discover parts and pieces that they have to assemble in a Lore library by turning them into a lore master of their home town or other race lore libraries if they are not KOS.
Exploration based spell rewards. These wouldn't have to be spells that you need to kill anything for......but more exploration searching the world of Terminus finding hidden passages, under rocks, Secret rooms, cubby, city sewers passages, treasure chest underwater, tops of spires,.....neat places that you would not think to look in the world of Terminus..... Almost like an Epic spell quest.
I like a lot of the suggestions already.
Lower tiers: Merchants
Middle tiers: Crafted
Higher tiers: Crafted from rare drops or dropped themselves
Epic Spells: Exploration using lore books, guides, traveling.
Agreed
An order of old, wise sages that live in an isolated temple on the top of a mountain. They are completely neutral as they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the world. They just sit and meditate all day, every day. You must build up reputation with them and go through a series of trials to prove yourself worthy. Once you have done so, they will share with you the secrets of the universe that have been revealed to them in their meditation. They give insight and will train you in spells that are totally unique - knowledge found nowhere else in Terminus.
Bazgrim said:An order of old, wise sages that live in an isolated temple on the top of a mountain. They are completely neutral as they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the world. They just sit and meditate all day, every day. You must build up reputation with them and go through a series of trials to prove yourself worthy. Once you have done so, they will share with you the secrets of the universe that have been revealed to them in their meditation. They give insight and will train you in spells that are totally unique - knowledge found nowhere else in Terminus.
I like this idea and feel each class should have something that goes along with theirs.
A Ranger might have to go deep into the forest and build faction with the Rangers that live there by performing certain tasks for them. They also might have to find an old Ranger who resides at the end of a cave (dungeon) that you have to fight through (I've seen something like this in the Pantheon gameplay videos).
Dalinsia said:I would like to see ancient spells that would be perception based. The player has to use clues from lore books dropped from the world to find ancient battle sites, ruins, natural landmarks, locations, cities etc. They search the areas for these lore book clues. They discover parts and pieces that they have to assemble in a Lore library by turning them into a lore master of their home town or other race lore libraries if they are not KOS.
Exploration based spell rewards. These wouldn't have to be spells that you need to kill anything for......but more exploration searching the world of Terminus finding hidden passages, under rocks, Secret rooms, cubby, city sewers passages, treasure chest underwater, tops of spires,.....neat places that you would not think to look in the world of Terminus..... Almost like an Epic spell quest.
I like a lot of the suggestions already.
Lower tiers: Merchants
Middle tiers: Crafted
Higher tiers: Crafted from rare drops or dropped themselves
Epic Spells: Exploration using lore books, guides, traveling.
+1000
1. Through out the leveling process basic class skills would come from a class trainer youd need to purchase.
2. There could also be Class quests at intervals for some of the more important spells/abilities while simultaneously being a story that unfolds the lore and history of said class.
3. As the devs mentioned finding them in the world. Which could be different for different classes.
Perhaps Wizards need to go to librarys and do research. Perhaps Warrios need to challenge NPC warriors. Perhaps Clerics go around and receive divine revelations at various churches, temples, and Holy sites. Perhaps Bards go around to different taverns and listen to and reproduce the sounds of master Bards or must perform new songs first before they can use them. Enchanters maybe have to craft them.
4. Elite versions of skills/spells would be found the same way you find high level gear. Off of various boss mobs, dungeon bosses, and raid bosses.
5. Epic skills/spells. Just like Epic weapon quests could be a thing too Or possibly just tied to an epic weapon where you cant use such and such epic skill unless you are wielding that epic weapon. Sounds like a good place for a clickie so that it technically gives you an 11th skill/spell you can use.
Kilsin said:What is your favourite way to acquire spells and abilities? Is it via a trainer, out in the world, mob drops, automatically updated spell book, crafted or some other way?
Just going to call them all spells, even melee abilities are 'spells'.
For me, if it's required to fulfill the core role of my class in a group, I would prefer the ability to acquire it from an NPC for in-game currency. Walk up, buy it, scribe it, move on. Any information like what city it's in will be on a wiki before launch, so I don't consider that exploration. If the ability to buy spells is tied to faction? I would prefer both sides of that faction coin are required to do the same work. In other words, if I'm going to be "evil" and need to gain faction with a good city to enter and purchase that spell, then the "good" side should also have to do the same to enter an "evil" city. Travel to another continent to get those spells? Great.
In line with the above, my preference would be that all such NPC purchased spells be no-trade, to prevent trivially bypassing the intended faction mechanics with alts and a shared bank.
It should be noted, though, that the core role of my class? That means non-combat role too. I should be able to buy the non-combat core role spells for my class from NPC's, as well. Not just the combat core role spells.
I would also like to know, in-game, what spells are available to me, even if I can't currently get them or don't have them, yet. Case in point? Invis to undead for wizards in EQ1. No indication of any kind, anywhere, via any Lore, Book, Item or NPC text, that you can get this spell as a wizard, in-era. Can't be crafted, quested, or purchased. Yet... it drops from exactly one very small area in the game, from exactly 3 variants of the same creature type. If you want it, you camp it. But nothing in-game indicates that. At all. Even a little bit.
Ok, it's a interesting twist, but even the remotest HINT from a wizard trainer, at any point would be better than nothing at all. Are you supposed to kill 100 of every kind of creature in the game and just stumble upon this spell? Cute, but ultimately frustrating, imo. Put the information in a book only wizards can read. In a wizard tower. Anywhere. :)
Now, for spells that are either not part of my core role (of tank, heal, dps, cc, non-combat) or an ancillary, auxillary, or non-core role, put them wherever you want. Drops from creatures, crafted, trade-able, etc.
One thing I find detestable is when core role spells are placed on max-level in-era raid bosses as rare drops. I am all for systems that allow customization, so if you can augment, adjust, customize or otherwise enhance a spell (core or non-core) with drops from max-level in-era raid mobs ONLY that's fine too. Just don't make it so I'm "useless" as a max level class until I get that one rare drop from that one rare creature, and can only perform my core role after that point. I would prefer to see spell customization widgets available from normal mobs and common boss mobs as well, so that if you are inclined, you can save up enough of these and combine them into what you would get from a max-level in-era raid boss, so you have multiple paths to the same goal.
Iconic Abilities should also follow these same guidelines, in my opinion. Base versions, easy to acquire. More powerful versions or customized versions? Make it as crazy challenging as you want.
I always refer back to my MUD'ing days when answering these types of questions.
Every player was granted their first abilities up to level 10 by their starting trainer. You had to go back to him/her each time you got to the appropriate level to get another spell/skill. Its been a lot of years... But if i remember right you were given 3 spells/skills to start. Then it was like 1 spell/skill every few levels. A level 50 character only had maybe 20 skills/spells to work with. Which back then.... Was plenty.
After level 10 you had to venture out into the world and hunt down specific trainers in order to acquire your spells/skills. This reminds me of an awesome mechanic associated with this. There was a special NPC located in the central town of the game that you could "" /say Protection "" and she (The Oracle) would say something like "" I see an old Hermit high on a mountain top awaiting your arrival "". This was your hint as where to find the trainer for your spell/skill. You would then run out into the world and check all the mountain tops you could find looking for this hermit to learn the spell Protection.
Now this was long ago before everything game related was posted online as guides. It just felt so much more alive and real to me at the time. It would be nice if Pantheon did something similar to this example in game. The idea of questing or exploring for spells is a lot more meaningful then them being handed to you each level. Also the idea of only receiving a spell/skill every few levels is a lot more meaningful as well.
Pyde said: ...After level 10 you had to venture out into the world and hunt down specific trainers in order to acquire your spells/skills. This reminds me a an awesome mechanic associated with this. There was a special NPC located in the central town of the game that you could "" /say Protection "" and she (The Oracle) would say something like "" I see an old Hermit high on a mountain top awaiting your arrival "". This was your hint as where to find the trainer for your spell/skill. You would then run out into the world and check all the mountain tops you could find looking for this hermit to learn the spell Protection.
Now this was long ago before everything game related was posted online as guides. It just felt so much more alive and real to me at the time. It would be nice if Pantheon did something similar to this example in game. The idea of questing or exploring for spells is a lot more meaningful then them being handed to you each level. Also the idea of only receiving a spell/skill every few levels is a lot more meaningful as well.
I was going to mention a bit about this as well. Ultimately, when it comes to things like personalized quests, procedural quests, or customized-for-You quests, unless it's going to actually be unique to each player, I'm not sure there's a huge amount of value in making it too obtuse, esoteric, or vague. Why? Because as soon as one person completes it, everyone has the walkthrough.
If, however, VR is going down the path of customized-for-You quests with the perception system? 100% all for it. Do it. Do it for every quest in the game. All it takes is dynamically spawnable and/or invisible perception nodes, and it can be done via "visions" in the simplest implementation (as per your hermit example above). Even if it was 1 of 30 or 100 locations in a zone, it would still be better than static locations for updates and quest milestones.
Amsai said:1. Through out the leveling process basic class skills would come from a class trainer youd need to purchase.
2. There could also be Class quests at intervals for some of the more important spells/abilities while simultaneously being a story that unfolds the lore and history of said class.
3. As the devs mentioned finding them in the world. Which could be different for different classes.
Perhaps Wizards need to go to librarys and do research. Perhaps Warrios need to challenge NPC warriors. Perhaps Clerics go around and receive divine revelations at various churches, temples, and Holy sites. Perhaps Bards go around to different taverns and listen to and reproduce the sounds of master Bards or must perform new songs first before they can use them. Enchanters maybe have to craft them.
4. Elite versions of skills/spells would be found the same way you find high level gear. Off of various boss mobs, dungeon bosses, and raid bosses.
5. Epic skills/spells. Just like Epic weapon quests could be a thing too Or possibly just tied to an epic weapon where you cant use such and such epic skill unless you are wielding that epic weapon. Sounds like a good place for a clickie so that it technically gives you an 11th skill/spell you can use.
Oh sure. And Druids can just hug trees right?
Jesting of course.
Bazgrim said:An order of old, wise sages that live in an isolated temple on the top of a mountain. They are completely neutral as they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the world. They just sit and meditate all day, every day. You must build up reputation with them and go through a series of trials to prove yourself worthy. Once you have done so, they will share with you the secrets of the universe that have been revealed to them in their meditation. They give insight and will train you in spells that are totally unique - knowledge found nowhere else in Terminus.
This would be kind of cool if they had a bunch of extra factions for each class, and each faction would have its own set of spells for your class. Then you'd have to choose which faction (and set of spells) you wanted to work on first...or maybe even have that be based on race...you automatically have access to your race/class combo spells, but you have to raise faction to get the races' spells for your class. An Elven Druid would automatically have access to the Elven Druid faction spells, but would have to raise faction with the Halflings to get access to the Halfling Druid faction spells.
I also agree with UnknownQuantity and think it's appealing to have spells be expensive so that you often have to choose only some of the spells that you are eligible for as you level.