I was listening to the old Roundtable Discussion from 2/2015 that's on the SoundCloud station. There's a bit where the developers are discussing day versus night and how dark the game will actually be and they mention that vision will be skill-based. Is this still planned? And does that mean that instead of having your races with infravision, ultravision, etc., different races will start with higher/lower vision skills than others and also have higher/lower caps? I definitely find the idea intriguing. Tried a search and didn't see anything on this specifically. Sorry if I missed something there.
It's been a while since they've talked about it, but if I remember correctly, they were originally saying that they wanted to avoid situations where a new player of a certain race would essentially just see pitch black in some cases. That's not a very fun experience, especially right off the bat. That could potentially turn away new players. Considering how many people carry torches all the time in the stream, visibility will almost definitely be a big factor in adventures (as it should be imo), but I'm not sure races will inherently have such severe impairments as they did in EQ. But I'm just going off a distant memory.
Bazgrim said:
It's been a while since they've talked about it, but if I remember correctly, they were originally saying that they wanted to avoid situations where a new player of a certain race would essentially just see pitch black in some cases. That's not a very fun experience, especially right off the bat. That could potentially turn away new players. Considering how many people carry torches all the time in the stream, visibility will almost definitely be a big factor in adventures (as it should be imo), but I'm not sure races will inherently have such severe impairments as they did in EQ. But I'm just going off a distant memory.
Yeah, in this same part of the discussion they say that they don't want to have situations like that in outdoor areas, but in dungeons they're basically saying anything goes. Also, the part about some races seeing better than others was pure speculation on my part. They just mentioned a 'vision skill' that couple be improved.
EDIT: Added quote.
Shucklighter said:No, different than that. You might have similar result with some races starting with points in it already or having higher caps, but the way it sounds to me is more like:
You have become better at Vision! (12)
Yeah an actual skill to improve...I like that. :) Spent many hours casting spells or say sense heading..to improve those. :) Wouldn't be against improving vision. Same with improving my invisibility spell or root spell..so it didn't fail as often and get me killed hehe.
CanadinaXegony said:Shucklighter said:No, different than that. You might have similar result with some races starting with points in it already or having higher caps, but the way it sounds to me is more like:
You have become better at Vision! (12)
Yeah an actual skill to improve...I like that. :) Spent many hours casting spells or say sense heading..to improve those. :) Wouldn't be against improving vision. Same with improving my invisibility spell or root spell..so it didn't fail as often and get me killed hehe.
Realistically speaking, I don't think a Vision skill makes any sense. In real life, I don't see things better the longer I look at them. Is this a skill that would just constantly and passively increase while you're logged in? I think vision is something that should only be able to be improved with magic. However, it might be interesting to have to slowly adjust to different light levels. For example, if you spend a lot of time outdoors and then quickly run into a deep, dark dungeon, it's probably gonna appear pitch black at first. But over the course of a few minutes, your eyes adjust and you can see in the dark better. And vice versa of course. I would imagine some races being able to adjust faster than others, but I don't think it makes sense for it to be an actual skill that is leveled up. Could be wrong tho.
As a side note, I'm also kinda glad we've moved on from Sense Heading. I'm fine with no in-game map but I'm glad there's a compass. Sense Heading is nothing but button mashing, and at early levels it can provide counterintuitive information. It can say you "think" you're facing east when you're actually facing west and there's not really anything you can do about it. You might have no way of knowing if it's lying to you or not... so you just gotta keep mashing that button until it's higher level. But I digress.
As far as roots, invis, and other spells go, they are usually associated with a particular school of magic (Evocation, Conjuration, etc.) and as you advance in that school of magic, you get better at all spells within that school. So it's like "You have become better at Conjuration! (87)" rather than "You have become better at Root! (87)" That's how it is in almost every game and I think Pantheon is the same. That may be what you meant anyway, but I just wanted to clarify. :)
@Bazgrim invisibility and root think those were Alteration (if memory serves me) yes there were no messages about you get better at root or invisibility..it named the actual spell school. To be honest sense heading was tedious. lol But I like to keep my options open when it comes to suggesting new ideas..such as what the Op stated. We can either disagree or agree all of us. heh But in the end it will be the Devs that decide what fits in the long run with their "vision" (see what I did there?) lol
CanadinaXegony said:@Bazgrim invisibility and root think those were Alteration (if memory serves me) yes there were no messages about you get better at root or invisibility..it named the actual spell school. To be honest sense heading was tedious. lol But I like to keep my options open when it comes to suggesting new ideas..such as what the Op stated. We can either disagree or agree all of us. heh But in the end it will be the Devs that decide what fits in the long run with their "vision" (see what I did there?) lol
Yes you're probably right that it was Alteration. I couldn't remember, but it doesn't really matter as you said haha
Bazgrim said:Realistically speaking, I don't think a Vision skill makes any sense. In real life, I don't see things better the longer I look at them. Is this a skill that would just constantly and passively increase while you're logged in? I think vision is something that should only be able to be improved with magic. However, it might be interesting to have to slowly adjust to different light levels. For example, if you spend a lot of time outdoors and then quickly run into a deep, dark dungeon, it's probably gonna appear pitch black at first. But over the course of a few minutes, your eyes adjust and you can see in the dark better. And vice versa of course. I would imagine some races being able to adjust faster than others, but I don't think it makes sense for it to be an actual skill that is leveled up. Could be wrong tho.
As a side note, I'm also kinda glad we've moved on from Sense Heading. I'm fine with no in-game map but I'm glad there's a compass. Sense Heading is nothing but button mashing, and at early levels it can provide counterintuitive information. It can say you "think" you're facing east when you're actually facing west and there's not really anything you can do about it. You might have no way of knowing if it's lying to you or not... so you just gotta keep mashing that button until it's higher level. But I digress.
As far as roots, invis, and other spells go, they are usually associated with a particular school of magic (Evocation, Conjuration, etc.) and as you advance in that school of magic, you get better at all spells within that school. So it's like "You have become better at Conjuration! (87)" rather than "You have become better at Root! (87)" That's how it is in almost every game and I think Pantheon is the same. That may be what you meant anyway, but I just wanted to clarify. :)
They were talking about magically dark areas in dungeons and Joppa says (my best shot at transcription here):
"One of the skill ideas we've been kicking around that's been really intriguing to me is the vision skill. So, you know, as Brad was saying earlier, with overland areas it's typically not as dark because of the, you know, the reasons that he mentioned, but, you know, it could be that maybe we tie that into the vision skill. Maybe Pantheon is a little bit darker, but there's a way to improve that. Certainly, when you get into some of these underland areas your vision skill will play an important role, and, you know, even under water, uh, there's a way that vision could actually help you see clearer and cut through the, the murkiness of an underwater area. So, we want these systems to be in place, but we also want there to be a lot of meaningful interaction with these systems."
Then they go on to talk about how the emphasis is on the 'E' when talking about PvE in PRF.
I think vision can improve with experience. Sure, your rods and cones and all of that other eye stuff might not be any different, but I believe the way you interpret the information your eyes give you can change. I've worked night shift for the better part of twelve years and I think your ability to detect movement in the dark can improve, at least. Of course, there's obviously always still at least -some- light outside at night time. Maybe this skill would control how well you see at night, in a blizzard, in fog, in cloudy water, etc. The more time you spend in blizzard conditions, the better you will be at picking things out of the white, perhaps. The more time you spend under water, the better you will be at picking things out of the shadows down there. Maybe those are all separate skills, or maybe they're tied into perception or acclimation. I dunno.
I don't know if this ever became more the idea it was two years ago, but I think it's an interesting concept.
Bazgrim said:CanadinaXegony said:Shucklighter said:No, different than that. You might have similar result with some races starting with points in it already or having higher caps, but the way it sounds to me is more like:
You have become better at Vision! (12)
Yeah an actual skill to improve...I like that. :) Spent many hours casting spells or say sense heading..to improve those. :) Wouldn't be against improving vision. Same with improving my invisibility spell or root spell..so it didn't fail as often and get me killed hehe.
Realistically speaking, I don't think a Vision skill makes any sense. In real life, I don't see things better the longer I look at them. Is this a skill that would just constantly and passively increase while you're logged in? I think vision is something that should only be able to be improved with magic. However, it might be interesting to have to slowly adjust to different light levels. For example, if you spend a lot of time outdoors and then quickly run into a deep, dark dungeon, it's probably gonna appear pitch black at first. But over the course of a few minutes, your eyes adjust and you can see in the dark better. And vice versa of course. I would imagine some races being able to adjust faster than others, but I don't think it makes sense for it to be an actual skill that is leveled up. Could be wrong tho.
As a side note, I'm also kinda glad we've moved on from Sense Heading. I'm fine with no in-game map but I'm glad there's a compass. Sense Heading is nothing but button mashing, and at early levels it can provide counterintuitive information. It can say you "think" you're facing east when you're actually facing west and there's not really anything you can do about it. You might have no way of knowing if it's lying to you or not... so you just gotta keep mashing that button until it's higher level. But I digress.
As far as roots, invis, and other spells go, they are usually associated with a particular school of magic (Evocation, Conjuration, etc.) and as you advance in that school of magic, you get better at all spells within that school. So it's like "You have become better at Conjuration! (87)" rather than "You have become better at Root! (87)" That's how it is in almost every game and I think Pantheon is the same. That may be what you meant anyway, but I just wanted to clarify. :)
The vision skill could be tied into how fast you adjust if that was a thing in game, that would make a bit more sense as far as what the skill is adding to! Will be super interesting to see how the skill plays out and if it stays in the game.
Maybe darkness of a outdoor area at night could also be tied into weather, if the clouds are blocking the light of the stars / moon/s etc then maybe a druid passing through could be convinced to unleash some of their weather control and move the clouds to lighten up the zone?
I am a big fan of dark nights and definitely like fact that some races have vision perks where others don't. I think it would be important to allow some classes to help others see well in the dark and this is another great skill for us to look to one and other to help with.
I wonder if they will go as far as having mobs agro ranges change depending on the available light based on the race of the mob, making night time better for sneaking up real close!
halflingwarrior said:If they make vision a skill it seems like it's something that everyone will max out asap and inevitably not have to worry about darkness. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me personally.
Yeah. Definitely some issues with it, but I guess it depends on how it would be implemented. If it has a cap per level and can only be improved by fighting in dark dungeons, you could possibly have situations like with weapons in EverQuest. You have a character who has leveled outside and/or only played in a few dungeons...or well-lit dungeons. That character is now max level and the high level dark dungeon is super dark for them. It's like being level 50 in EverQuest and getting a sweet 2HB weapon when you have never used 2HB. I agree, though, that if it's not implemented properly it would seem pretty trivial.
I like the idea, but I wonder it's possible to control what people can see in game. It was exciting when I started in Surefall Glade and couldn't make my way out of the tunnel (frustrating, but exciting). The trip from Blackburrow to Everfrost also had a dark tunnel. I was eventually able to circumvent this by changing the gamma on my screen or increasing the brightness on the display temporarily. It was a long time before I figured this out, but now this type of information is likely common knowledge. If you don't know it someone else will and they will share the information on the internet. I still like the idea and would choose not to cheat in the same way I wouldn't cheat by using out of game maps. Originally these types of mechanics frustrated me a bit, but now that we have all these conveniences in MMOs you can see how it detracts from them IMO.
Shucklighter said:halflingwarrior said:If they make vision a skill it seems like it's something that everyone will max out asap and inevitably not have to worry about darkness. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me personally.
Yeah. Definitely some issues with it, but I guess it depends on how it would be implemented. If it has a cap per level and can only be improved by fighting in dark dungeons, you could possibly have situations like with weapons in EverQuest. You have a character who has leveled outside and/or only played in a few dungeons...or well-lit dungeons. That character is now max level and the high level dark dungeon is super dark for them. It's like being level 50 in EverQuest and getting a sweet 2HB weapon when you have never used 2HB. I agree, though, that if it's not implemented properly it would seem pretty trivial.
I think the bigger problem is that there is 0 risk involved in leveling it up. Even if there is a level cap, every time I level up, I'm just gonna go to some really dark room in a building in town and walk in and out of it until I hit my cap for that level. It's as if there was just a button to mash over and over - like Sense Heading. So then it's like, what's the point?
Edit: I should clarify that I really like individual skills that can be leveled up. I think it's an important way to easily see that progress is being made and your character is getting better every day. I just don't think it makes sense for Vision to be something that you can get better at. It's not an area where practice makes perfect. If one person's eyes are better are than someone else's, it's probably because they were just born that way. I wouldn't read too much into Joppa using the term "vision skill." That could mean a lot of things.
Bazgrim said:Shucklighter said:halflingwarrior said:If they make vision a skill it seems like it's something that everyone will max out asap and inevitably not have to worry about darkness. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me personally.
Yeah. Definitely some issues with it, but I guess it depends on how it would be implemented. If it has a cap per level and can only be improved by fighting in dark dungeons, you could possibly have situations like with weapons in EverQuest. You have a character who has leveled outside and/or only played in a few dungeons...or well-lit dungeons. That character is now max level and the high level dark dungeon is super dark for them. It's like being level 50 in EverQuest and getting a sweet 2HB weapon when you have never used 2HB. I agree, though, that if it's not implemented properly it would seem pretty trivial.
I think the bigger problem is that there is 0 risk involved in leveling it up. Even if there is a level cap, every time I level up, I'm just gonna go to some really dark room in a building in town and walk in and out of it until I hit my cap for that level. It's as if there was just a button to mash over and over - like Sense Heading. So then it's like, what's the point?
I also wonder what the vision skill would encompase. Does that mean every race can see well in the dark if they get their vision skill up? That removes the uniqueness of some races ability to see in the dark because they live in dark environments. I don't really mind having to raise certain skills. The mechanic may be simple, but it is a way to replicate the process of learning to do something in via a number oriented system.
UnknownQuantity said:Bazgrim said:Shucklighter said:halflingwarrior said:If they make vision a skill it seems like it's something that everyone will max out asap and inevitably not have to worry about darkness. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me personally.
Yeah. Definitely some issues with it, but I guess it depends on how it would be implemented. If it has a cap per level and can only be improved by fighting in dark dungeons, you could possibly have situations like with weapons in EverQuest. You have a character who has leveled outside and/or only played in a few dungeons...or well-lit dungeons. That character is now max level and the high level dark dungeon is super dark for them. It's like being level 50 in EverQuest and getting a sweet 2HB weapon when you have never used 2HB. I agree, though, that if it's not implemented properly it would seem pretty trivial.
I think the bigger problem is that there is 0 risk involved in leveling it up. Even if there is a level cap, every time I level up, I'm just gonna go to some really dark room in a building in town and walk in and out of it until I hit my cap for that level. It's as if there was just a button to mash over and over - like Sense Heading. So then it's like, what's the point?
I also wonder what the vision skill would encompase. Does that mean every race can see well in the dark if they get their vision skill up? That removes the uniqueness of some races ability to see in the dark because they live in dark environments. I don't really mind having to raise certain skills. The mechanic may be simple, but it is a way to replicate the process of learning to do something in via a number oriented system.
See my edit in my above post.