I think it's a great idea, but agree that it doesn't fit Pantheon. Pantheon is intended as a very social environment. Something like this isolates people. It's too much like instancing. In open world content, people run through the zone while raids are taking place, other guilds pop in on you... Pantheon is inclusive and that's why they don't want instancing beyond maybe cinematics. If everyone gets their own instance of this special zone, it is by definition not inclusive. That goes against the intent of the game as a whole.
That doesn't make it a bad idea, just that Pantheon isn't the right place for this particular great idea, in my opinion. VR wants people to SEE you in your Uber gear, not for it to be hidden away in an exclusive zone. They aren't looking for there to be only invisible rewards until max (impossible) levels in a hidden area.
Another issue with this is people being left behind because they can't access the zone, so everyone in guild is there except lamer me.... That's my beef with keys that don't open a door that everyone there can walk through. This also goes against their statements that they understand that a lot of modern gamers can't be on 24/7, so many can't keep up with the demand to get your faction up through hours upon hours of grinding.
Again, great idea, perhaps for a different game. :)
Amris said:I think it's a great idea, but agree that it doesn't fit Pantheon. Pantheon is intended as a very social environment. Something like this isolates people. It's too much like instancing. In open world content, people run through the zone while raids are taking place, other guilds pop in on you... Pantheon is inclusive and that's why they don't want instancing beyond maybe cinematics. If everyone gets their own instance of this special zone, it is by definition not inclusive. That goes against the intent of the game as a whole.
That doesn't make it a bad idea, just that Pantheon isn't the right place for this particular great idea, in my opinion. VR wants people to SEE you in your Uber gear, not for it to be hidden away in an exclusive zone. They aren't looking for there to be only invisible rewards until max (impossible) levels in a hidden area.
Another issue with this is people being left behind because they can't access the zone, so everyone in guild is there except lamer me.... That's my beef with keys that don't open a door that everyone there can walk through. This also goes against their statements that they understand that a lot of modern gamers can't be on 24/7, so many can't keep up with the demand to get your faction up through hours upon hours of grinding.
Again, great idea, perhaps for a different game. :)
I'm still holding out hope that we might see something like this. I have been in communication with some people playing FFXIV, and apparently the Palace of the Dead, which is their version of this idea, is one of the most commonly used gameplay elements in the entire game. People group to run that dungeon basically every day. I don't know exactly how their system works, but the idea still has enough merit to hope that we might see something like this. I'm fine with a completely open game ... but if an idea is good enough, an exception can be made. If the idea was tweaked around some I am sure there is some sort of compromise that could be made to make it viable in Pantheon. This obviously wouldn't be until an expansion or so down the road, but I wanted to plant the seed now ... I promise, a dungeon like this would be AMAZING for replay value in the game.
As far as access problems, my idea was to charge gold for each entry. That's just a small detail in the grand scheme of things. Little details like that can be worked out, for sure. The ultimate point I am trying to make with this dungeon is that it would provide endless hours of replay value to the game. I personally don't really care for rolling alts ... I would much rather be the best warrior possible, and could see myself running a dungeon like this hundreds or even thousands of times. And I'd be busting my ass to farm gold/plat to pay for my expensive hobby, too.
Honestly, what you're saying is why I DO NOT want it in the game. You'll be off doing this instead of out in the world. So will a lot of other people...
Rather than putting in something like this that takes a good warrior away from groups and raids, they should make the world challenging from day one all the way up. They've already said that they will be focusing on putting out content and keeping the game fresh. I'd rather they did that than make a "variable" dungeon that does nothing for anybody until they complete the entire super-impossible dungeon.... then finally they can reemerge into society...
This is no different from anything else. You're just asking to stick the entire game into a single dungeon and then instance it. Then there's an "end game" where you beat the big (variable) boss and get your one thing that allows you to return to the game...
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but this assumes that the regular game will be boring. It assumes that the devs won't keep up with the needs of the players... it also says that they should divert world-creation resources to creating something that isolates people.
Again, I'm sure that there are a lot of games this could work well on. It sounds like the FF game gets boring after a while, so you need something to make it exciting and challenging for people who have either beat the content or will never be able to access most of it.
This idea discourages exploration. It discourages flaunting your gear. It discourages being IN the world until you've completed the game within the game first. It takes people out of interaction with other people except their own group or raid, no one else.
All of these things are literally the opposite of what VR's vision is. Interaction, exploration, competition with each other, meeting challenges together (even if that challenge is other players)... all part of the whole concept that they are shooting for. All of these are in direct opposition to what such a dungeon would do. Regardless of what you set as an entry for it, ultimately, it's going to come down to instancing and people joining long enough to get their ShinyObject005 before LFG tooling again for some other reason.
I completely understand that it's something you'd like to play. You enjoyed it, and you miss it, and you want to do it again but with better graphics. I literally get that, lol. I feel that way about EQ.
One of the reasons why VR is addressing players of EQ is because we're their primary niche target audience. unfortunately, that means that people who want instances and in-game games that remove them from the general population are NOT their niche audience. This game's demographic niche is people focused on social gaming. Interaction with other people in ways that are both going to be good and sometimes not-so-good. But interaction is the key.
Games like WoW are much like what you want, just that they don't toss out content fast enough for you, I'm guessing. Therefor, you would like a game to come along that fills that "newness" craving with a specific type of instancing. Which again... not what VR is looking to do because they are against instancing except for cinematic moments. You're literally asking for sweet and sour pork at McDonald's, so to speak. They don't serve Chinese food, they serve burgers. VR isn't going to build something like this because it doesn't fit their vision.
Their vision is for everyone to be pushed by the game into working together, finding and maintaining friends. This game is, in essence, a way to be social... while playing something you greatly enjoy--WITH FRIENDS. Any sort of instancing like you're talking about goes against the principles of adventuring out into a vast, terrifying world with people you trust at your side. It goes against discovering new dungeons and fully conquering and learning them together.
Your dungeon concept has an "end game"... in many ways, Pantheon will be more of an adventure-based sandbox. While it won't be pure sandbox, they fully intend to make it variable enough that there really isn't an "end game" because, as in EQ, every step along the way should feel epic. Getting your first greater lightstone at level 12 should feel epic, just like finally getting your epic Epic should feel epic.
If they put such a dungeon into the game, what would happen is that it would take over the game. People wanting to explore would not be able to find any groups... they're all in the oh-so-exciting dungeon because you don't have to GO anywhere to get to it. Create an easy way for people to stay in one place and do one thing, and they will. The vast world they are creating will be abandoned to the "more fun thing" of trying to get "to the end game" of this game inside the game that nobody needs to travel to anymore because everyone's THERE.
Why even build a game at all? Why not just build what you're talking about? A 100 level game with randomly generated content on each level? Why put this inside another game at all? There's no reason to even bother with the rest of the world if everyone can just go to one place and experience all the mobs in the game and all the landscape, etc. already.
I think a randomized dungeon is great--it should be its own game. It should be made, but not in a game that's all about social networking, exploring, adventuring, and being immersed IN A WORLD.
This is supposed to be a world in and of itself. Why would they put another whole world inside the world so people can ignore the world to play in the world that they logged out sitting in front of?
I am not poo-pooing your idea on its own merits. I don't like it for any game such as Pantheon, EQ, WoW... any exploration/ adventure based MMO where people should be WITH each other, not tucked away in an instance with their group or raid and dead to the rest of the world. No matter how exciting that dungeon is, it goes against the whole concept of an MMO. It should be a multiplayer game with dedicated servers and randomly generated content, not plunked down in the middle of an incompatible demographic.
You said it yourself... people go do that, instead of actually playing the game they're playing. I don't want that in a game based on a vast world. When it becomes impossible to get a group because everyone's inside The Labyrinth instead... then The Labyrinth is the problem for the WHOLE game. Once that happens, why would the devs even bother with new content? It'll all be in The Labyrinth, so why explore? You'll see all the dragons and orcs and gaboons already.
It doesn't fit the purpose or nature of this game. If they put this in, it's because they haven't done well enough making the world challenging and they need SOMETHING to hold people in the game... even if it makes the rest of the game a ghost town...
I would love to see you get the game you want, with the variable/ randomly generated gameplay in a dungeon where you can ignore the rest of the world to min-max yourself without ever leaving or exploring. I just don't want that, and I don't want people to be able to do that in Pantheon and ignore the game itself for the mini-game randomly generated instanced dungeon. I honestly just don't, I'm sorry.
Amris said:Honestly, what you're saying is why I DO NOT want it in the game. You'll be off doing this instead of out in the world. So will a lot of other people...
Rather than putting in something like this that takes a good warrior away from groups and raids, they should make the world challenging from day one all the way up. They've already said that they will be focusing on putting out content and keeping the game fresh. I'd rather they did that than make a "variable" dungeon that does nothing for anybody until they complete the entire super-impossible dungeon.... then finally they can reemerge into society...
This is no different from anything else. You're just asking to stick the entire game into a single dungeon and then instance it. Then there's an "end game" where you beat the big (variable) boss and get your one thing that allows you to return to the game...
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but this assumes that the regular game will be boring. It assumes that the devs won't keep up with the needs of the players... it also says that they should divert world-creation resources to creating something that isolates people.
Again, I'm sure that there are a lot of games this could work well on. It sounds like the FF game gets boring after a while, so you need something to make it exciting and challenging for people who have either beat the content or will never be able to access most of it.
This idea discourages exploration. It discourages flaunting your gear. It discourages being IN the world until you've completed the game within the game first. It takes people out of interaction with other people except their own group or raid, no one else.
All of these things are literally the opposite of what VR's vision is. Interaction, exploration, competition with each other, meeting challenges together (even if that challenge is other players)... all part of the whole concept that they are shooting for. All of these are in direct opposition to what such a dungeon would do. Regardless of what you set as an entry for it, ultimately, it's going to come down to instancing and people joining long enough to get their ShinyObject005 before LFG tooling again for some other reason.
I completely understand that it's something you'd like to play. You enjoyed it, and you miss it, and you want to do it again but with better graphics. I literally get that, lol. I feel that way about EQ.
One of the reasons why VR is addressing players of EQ is because we're their primary niche target audience. unfortunately, that means that people who want instances and in-game games that remove them from the general population are NOT their niche audience. This game's demographic niche is people focused on social gaming. Interaction with other people in ways that are both going to be good and sometimes not-so-good. But interaction is the key.
Games like WoW are much like what you want, just that they don't toss out content fast enough for you, I'm guessing. Therefor, you would like a game to come along that fills that "newness" craving with a specific type of instancing. Which again... not what VR is looking to do because they are against instancing except for cinematic moments. You're literally asking for sweet and sour pork at McDonald's, so to speak. They don't serve Chinese food, they serve burgers. VR isn't going to build something like this because it doesn't fit their vision.
Their vision is for everyone to be pushed by the game into working together, finding and maintaining friends. This game is, in essence, a way to be social... while playing something you greatly enjoy--WITH FRIENDS. Any sort of instancing like you're talking about goes against the principles of adventuring out into a vast, terrifying world with people you trust at your side. It goes against discovering new dungeons and fully conquering and learning them together.
Your dungeon concept has an "end game"... in many ways, Pantheon will be more of an adventure-based sandbox. While it won't be pure sandbox, they fully intend to make it variable enough that there really isn't an "end game" because, as in EQ, every step along the way should feel epic. Getting your first greater lightstone at level 12 should feel epic, just like finally getting your epic Epic should feel epic.
If they put such a dungeon into the game, what would happen is that it would take over the game. People wanting to explore would not be able to find any groups... they're all in the oh-so-exciting dungeon because you don't have to GO anywhere to get to it. Create an easy way for people to stay in one place and do one thing, and they will. The vast world they are creating will be abandoned to the "more fun thing" of trying to get "to the end game" of this game inside the game that nobody needs to travel to anymore because everyone's THERE.
Why even build a game at all? Why not just build what you're talking about? A 100 level game with randomly generated content on each level? Why put this inside another game at all? There's no reason to even bother with the rest of the world if everyone can just go to one place and experience all the mobs in the game and all the landscape, etc. already.
I think a randomized dungeon is great--it should be its own game. It should be made, but not in a game that's all about social networking, exploring, adventuring, and being immersed IN A WORLD.
This is supposed to be a world in and of itself. Why would they put another whole world inside the world so people can ignore the world to play in the world that they logged out sitting in front of?
I am not poo-pooing your idea on its own merits. I don't like it for any game such as Pantheon, EQ, WoW... any exploration/ adventure based MMO where people should be WITH each other, not tucked away in an instance with their group or raid and dead to the rest of the world. No matter how exciting that dungeon is, it goes against the whole concept of an MMO. It should be a multiplayer game with dedicated servers and randomly generated content, not plunked down in the middle of an incompatible demographic.
You said it yourself... people go do that, instead of actually playing the game they're playing. I don't want that in a game based on a vast world. When it becomes impossible to get a group because everyone's inside The Labyrinth instead... then The Labyrinth is the problem for the WHOLE game. Once that happens, why would the devs even bother with new content? It'll all be in The Labyrinth, so why explore? You'll see all the dragons and orcs and gaboons already.
It doesn't fit the purpose or nature of this game. If they put this in, it's because they haven't done well enough making the world challenging and they need SOMETHING to hold people in the game... even if it makes the rest of the game a ghost town...
I would love to see you get the game you want, with the variable/ randomly generated gameplay in a dungeon where you can ignore the rest of the world to min-max yourself without ever leaving or exploring. I just don't want that, and I don't want people to be able to do that in Pantheon and ignore the game itself for the mini-game randomly generated instanced dungeon. I honestly just don't, I'm sorry.
I was going to write up a huge detailed response on this, but it's really not worth the effort. It doesen't seem like you took the time to actually read the entire thread because a lot of your assertions are based on your fabricated vision of my idea. I agree, whatever type of dungeon you are talking about sounds like a nightmare and I honestly don't want to see something like that in Pantheon either. Thanks for your opinion, nonetheless.
I read through the whole post. Every single comment. I simply don't agree with you. You, yourself, made it abundantly clear that you would run it over and over and over again. That you'd be willing to put plat on "your hobby".
You want an instanced variable dungeon that has randomized content from the whole game with various levels and only the end items will be useable in the game itself.
I did read it, quite thoroughly. As I said, I think the idea on its own is great. I don't like it for Pantheon or any other MMO. I don't like instances to begin with. They isolate people by their very nature.
You want it as "end game content", because you think that there won't be anything for guilds to do, like in Vanguard.
The problem I think we have here is that you seem to think that, had I read the thread, I would agree with you. If I don't agree that the idea fits THIS game, then I must not have read it...
That's simply not the case. I just don't like the idea. I DO think people will focus on it instead of the vast world around it. I don't want that. I don't want people to experience the content of the world without even needing to explore the world. That's what a randomized dungeon with world content will do.
I can have read the entire thread and still not want your proposal IN THIS GAME.
That in no way detracts from the idea. It has merit, just, in my personal viewpoint, not IN THIS GAME.
I can think an idea is wonderful without wanting to use that idea. I read everything you and everyone else said. I looked at the links. I did my due diligence and I just honestly don't agree with you as far as Pantheon goes with this concept. There are people who are simply going to disagree with you, my friend. I still think you're brilliant and fabulous. I don't want this sort of dungeon in Pantheon, but I like your mind and your intelligence, regardless of that.
This is a developmental forum for concepts that may or may not ever come to be, and I try to provide as many ideas as I can in the hope that even one detail could be worthy of consideration. As a hardcore veteran of almost every MMO outside of WoW, as I strongly disliked that game, I feel that a dungeon like this would be incredible. I only intend on raiding with people in my guild regardless of how the world and raids are structured, and with that being said, it's very important to me that we have as much meaningful content as possible. I do agree, my friend, that no concept could ever command 100% agreement ... and with that being said, I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into voicing your concerns. Where you have concerns or worries, I have hope and wanderlust. This is one of those moments where I am very happy to agree to disagree -- there are plenty of people who have chimed in that are in favor of such a concept and that alone justifies the effort that I put into sharing this idea. I'd like to ask you to check out another one of my ideas as maybe you would like that one better. Here is a link:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5217/coliseum/view/page/1
Cheers!
Every idea is worth voicing. You never know what ideas can expand out of a single one. Even if they don't use your idea directly, they may find a way to use it that is unexpected by everyone. I absolutely would not want to silence you. Never, never that. The idea of variable content isn't a bad one, but I'd like to see it used in, say, some sort of "aether realm" or the like.... a zone that fluctuates on a given timetable, but within its own rules and doesn't use all the content of the game. I see tremendous merit in many of the concepts here, I simply don't like them all together in this game.
Point being, I'm the last person who would want you to stop putting ideas out there. I do it, and I invite anyone to do it. Brainstorming is what this forum is for, and we all pay for the privilege to be part of it!
I apologize if I somehow came off as saying I don't want to "hear" your ideas. Nothing could be further from how I feel. I don't agree, but as i said, I still admire your mind and your thinking. I meant that, it's not platitudes.
I will definitely read that tomorrow, as I'm off to bed right now. Nearly 10pm here and these days I get up at 5am, so I need my not-quite-so-ugly sleep. ;p Okay, I admit it, I'm just trying to be modest. How am I doing? :D
I look forward to reading it, but again I don't promise that I'll agree with it. I will, though, read with great interest, as I am now highly curious!
I considered the idea here and, while it is not 'pantheon-esque' in its current incarnation, I feel it could be transmuted into something that fits both within the Lore and milieu of Terminus. To this end, I considered what fundamentals, or core things, OP was looking to achieve, not at how he envisaged the outcome.
His core criteria were:
1. You can enter in your regular gear, but it won't help much
2. Only by progressing inside, can to go further within
3. Only in here will you be able to gain (crafted using components found within) gear to help
4. It may be possible to bypass 'sufficiently done' content
5. There is no issue with having 'regular; raid loot at the end
It seemed eminently possible. But, to do this is we need to imagine and utilize:
The EIGHTH Atmosphere: Radiative
With this, it is possible to create a hypothetical dungeon:
FELLSTONE MINE (Level 50+ dungeon and raid)
Lore:
Intrepid Dwarves, seeking new types of ore came across an unknown crater. They imagined a meteor may have stuck and buried itself beneath. This led them to imagine a wondrous trove of ores, both known and unknown. Finding a cavern near the surface, the set camp and began to explore. With much ore dug, they moved deeper until the illness started. Many died, causing them to call on the gnomes for advice. The source of the illness was determined to be far below - likely the meteor itself! It seems to radiate upwards, affecting both living and non-living things over time. Indeed, items travelling deeper for long periods of time are a danger to anyone who holds them, should they not be sufficiently acclimated. Indeed, without strengthening, items of cloth and even metal will rot away over time.
Now they seek the aid of powerful, yet foolhardy, adventurers ...
Design:
This follows a simple non-instanced, vertical, dungeon design.
Entry Point:
Entry is into the cavern where the settlers and miners live. It provides for basic provisions and some (local only) Bank/Storage. From here, there are two paths: Into the tunnels leading down (Tier-1) or via a lift/drop from where lower points (Tier-2+3 or Tier-3+4) are accessible (for a price). Note that dropping to lower Tiers without sufficient acclimation will get you killed.... quickly. A pickup point in these two zones for extraction is also possible.
While the dwarves will sell basic goods for cash, they prefer ores for anything else. The gnomes are only after insights into the magical interactions of this place and will refuse to deal with anyone unless payment in the form of irradiated ores or items is offered. Some few look to the innards of the mutated species found below .... hoping for insight into their own Gnomish plight.
Dungeon:
From Tier-1 at the top, the dungeon becomes progressively more dangerous as you delve deeper - with Tier-5 at the bottom. The danger is partly in the mobs, but mainly due to the atmosphere. Without sufficient acclimation, players will have a cumulative radiative effect on themselves acting as a debuff. In addition most, if not all, mobs will have 'aspects of the radiation' apparent. This may produce differing effects, dependent on the mob's mutation:
Eg: Mobs that splash poisonous or corrosive blood when slashed (better stick to blunt weapons!)
Eg: Mobs that regenerate due to continuous cancerous growth of their bodies.
Higher tier mobs will exhibit more pronounced effects.
Boss Lair:
Within Tier-5 will be the 'meteor'. It is a huge, cracked shell that radiates strongly. Indeed, it is this dense, thick shell that is the whole cause of the radiation above. This radiation was a by-product of the magic properties of the shell, the spells put upon it, and the effects of breaching dimensions in order to effect entry into Terminus.
The Good : it means there is no radiation effects within the shell ...
The Bad : There are still many Tier-5 mobs about the place, ready to heed the call of ...
The Ugly : There is a Beast within. It is BIG.
While the boss lives without radiation, it has been slowly acclimating in order that it may escape and gain access to the surface of Terminus. This is probably not good. It is likely immune to Tier-1 effects and somewhat resistant to Tiers 2-3. It should prove susceptible to Tiers 4-5 effects. However, the protective cadre of mutated monsters nearby are fully Tier-5 acclimated. Good luck with that!.
Since the Boss lives outside an irradiated area, the loot in its cavern is free from any irradiation effects. This means it is viable 'Raid loot', just like any other..
Gameplay:
In essence this plays out as a basic dungeon, albeit with a twist.
1. Progress through the Tiers will require acclimation for any chance of success.
2. There (may) be ore or irradiated equipment in (lootable) areas
3. Mob drops will be irradiated to a degree equal to their Tier.
4. There should be a small number of +1 Tier mobs in any given Tier (wanderers).
5. Irradiated loot will have an active debuff while carried for anyone non/under-acclimated.
This means irradiated loot/gear taken outside will still have debuff effects. This can be
managed as (only active when held/worn) or like 'rabies' and needs a cure/cleanse.
6. (optional) Gear that is not 'strengthened' may get damaged/broken
7. Higher Tier gear can be looted or 'upgraded' via crafting, using ores found.
8. Regular storage/Banking can be used to put 'regular' gear for safe-keeping until later
9. Special Storage/Banking can be used to put 'irradiated' gear.
The distinct 'flavour' of this dungeon comes from it having a 'unique' atmosphere. If it is the only place where this atmosphere exists (apart, say, from 'planar' zones) than this provides a particularly difficult challenge for players. With mobs having atmosphere induced abilities and the very walls irradiating them, any party has got its work cut out to succeed. I imagine merely getting to the bottom will take any given group a long time. Add to this that it will take many groups to get acclimated before they can even begin to think about challenging the Raid Boss at the bottom! In addition, they will need utility classes, crafters and who knows what else just to get there.
EDIT: I also forgot to point out that this kind of layered dungeon could be implemented in stages. Though this wouldn't reduce the impact at the planning stage, it would allow for the spreading out of the developemnt overheads for assets and resources over a longer period. Thus teh 'Entry' and Tier-1+2 could be incepted first, with Tier3-4 to follow next a while later, with Tier-5 and the boss last. Each could be delayed dependent on both in-game and IRL factors. Of course, a dungeon is still a big thing.
I feel this meets the criteria the OP listed, but better fits Pantheons tenets and Lore.
Evoras, wonders if he can get a radiation pet?
Thank you for sharing your ideas on how to make something like this possible Evoras! As you have mentioned, you have encompassed the core criteria that I was looking for, but also added crafting and acclimation into the mix. Seeing this idea fleshed out, and in a way that makes sense for Pantheon, is nothing short of amazing. Kudos to you for going out of your way and thinking outside the box on this. I am now infinitely more excited about the conceptual design of this dungeon, and truly thank you for your feedback on this matter.
+Infinite Faction
Here's a thought to add (if it needs to be instanced):
What if the dungeon is 1 random-floor long. BUT when you complete that level you get flagged. So, the first time you enter the dungeon it is a level 1. The next time, you have the choice of a level 1 or level 2 until level N. This would allow players the opportunity to complete it across multiple groups and a sundry of time. PLUS, it would have a built in throttle. The hardcore people will finish before the next expansion, and others will be able to finish after the next expansion. A faction merchant or special vender would offer items based on your Dungeon-Flag-Level. I realize that this is VERY similiar. The main advantage of what I am saying is it is a little more digestable for the player to process what is needed while mainting the epic feel of an incredibly difficult achievement.
To add to the challange, what if items could be looted throughout the dungeon that when consumed would add an additional layer of difficulty (NPC now tripple instead of double, or double NPC hitpoints, or double the resource cost of spells and abilities, etc) and additional success yield.
All of that being said: This idea-vein is fantastic! Give players a near impossible goal and give a tangible reward that has lasting value. These are the things that set the backdrop for a game with deep heritage in the player's community. Thumbs up
I really like your idea Evoras (and now I want to go hunt for metoers oddly enough), but that feels more like a normal dungeon that gets expanded (via patch or an actual expansion) vs a system that just simple tests "how high can i get?" Perhaps, I missunderstood the orignal intent of a "100 level dungeon."
But I hope your idea may be impleneted in someway. It sounds all kinds of fun, and clearly well thought through.
The idea of having 100 floors was really just a placeholder number -- the true goal was to have a "Legendary Dungeon Crawl" with an emphasis on challenge, replay value, and accomplishment. Conceptually speaking, I would indeed like to see this implemented in a way that would allow the dungeon to be expanded upon in future updates. I also like the idea of having a raid boss at the end; this would allow many different groups an opportunity to battle their way to the bottom in a "group setting" but give them an epic boss to battle at the final destination. Upon getting to the bottom of the dungeon, players would have an option to teleport or take an elevator all the way down. It's the tried and true access key / flagging system from days old. Another core part of this idea is to allow players to spend plenty of time in this area that won't "break the rest of the game." Replay value is critical here. A single dungeon like this would give the hardcore folks something to work on as much as they'd like, but their efforts will only provide a "Terminus Tangible" reward if they actually manage to beat it.
oneADseven said:
"Cave of Wonders" or "Eternal Dungeon" are some names that come to mind, but basically here's how it would work: At some point later in the game there would be a zone that harbors an ancient tribe that guards a dungeon, and after building enough faction with them, they will sell you a temporary passage rite to enter their dungeon.
OMG, please not! :(
I remember the faction grind in WoW BC to get the keys for the heroic versions of the 5-man dungeons. It was very boring and tedious. I hope VR will not implement such artificial content blockers in the game.
Greetings
oneADseven said:The idea of having 100 floors was really just a placeholder number -- the true goal was to have a "Legendary Dungeon Crawl" with an emphasis on challenge, replay value, and accomplishment. Conceptually speaking, I would indeed like to see this implemented in a way that would allow the dungeon to be expanded upon in future updates.
I had the sense that it was not a literal 100 floors :-); but I was thinking this was originally proposed as an "infinite-ladder" style thing, where the badge was who can go to the highest (or lowest) floor to prove their dungeon prowess.
But if you are proposing a “Legendary Dungeon Crawl” (which sounds pretty amazing) with a logical end, then let’s add more lore and story to it (kinda what Evoras drafted up) to increase the epic feel to the event. I would like to see more continuity or purpose to why I am crawling to the bottom of a pit (still searching for that meteor, thanks a lot Evoras! I hope your happy now!). I would also like to know why, in lore, when a new expansion come out, I have to go further down the rabbit hole. This whole (see what I did there) concept is super fascinating and extremely appealing.
I think there may be room for both a "how high can one climb" system (like diablo) and a dungeon that most cant complete.
PS> nothing wrong with earning keys/flags. It’s putting in your due diligence. It’s a way to add layers to a game without adding character levels.
Larirawiel said:oneADseven said:
"Cave of Wonders" or "Eternal Dungeon" are some names that come to mind, but basically here's how it would work: At some point later in the game there would be a zone that harbors an ancient tribe that guards a dungeon, and after building enough faction with them, they will sell you a temporary passage rite to enter their dungeon.
OMG, please not! :(
I remember the faction grind in WoW BC to get the keys for the heroic versions of the 5-man dungeons. It was very boring and tedious. I hope VR will not implement such artificial content blockers in the game.
Greetings
I understand your concern, but access keys and flagging are pretty common in MMO's -- they just need to be done in a way that is neither tedious or boring. This was just a random thought early on, I am much more in favor of the evolved version of the idea that Evoras was so kind to share with us.
Didn't VR state they aren't doing instanced dungeons? Also just a little insight for folks. While coming up with ideas are great and all, I am of the sound mind that I'd like to see VR develope their own style and their own content. I like everything you mentioned. but at the end of the day I think we have to give these devs the breathing room to create on their own. Think about it like this: I have invested in Patheon because they are going back to the core basics, and adding their own creative spice to it.
What puts this dev team in a very good spot right now you may ask? Nobody else is doing what they are doing in terms of going back to core MMORPG elements. VR potentially has the chance to (re) pave the way. I'm not going to say they are the preverbial WoW killer because we all know that WoW will be the death of itself. What I am getting at is this team has a lot of breathing room in their creative spectrum.
I'll be honest in terms of creativity I put VR up there with a company like Square Enix. Solid devs who actually are tapping into their core player element. I just have this feeling that VR is truly on the brink of something great in terms of the MMORPG industry. So while I like ideas just like the next gamer, I think we should wait for the testing phase and see what is what. Just my 2p
I also appreciate the creative genius of VR and have full faith in them delivering an awesome game and have backed it up with a VIP pledge. At the end of the day, though, there are plenty of wonderful ideas that can pop up from the community. If you look at the acclimation concept, there are already tweaks planned for it that spawned from community thinking and sharing. Posting ideas on this forum isn't taking away breathing room. These are development forums. If they like the idea, they can always put it in their back pocket and revisit it with a later expansion or adventure pack. I enjoy sharing conceptual ideas on this forum as it keeps me engaged with the world of Terminus and the rest of the community while we play the waiting game. I like using my imagination, too. It's cool to think of "what if's" or share ideas of something that you would absolutely love to see in your dream MMO. I am extremely vested into this game and will always look to champion various causes that are important to me or my friends. That said, I have a ton of respect for VR and am 100% confident that Pantheon would be my favorite game all time regardless of whether or not they entertain any of the ideas that originate from within their active community. We're talking about a company called "Visionary Realms" -- if anybody can appreciate a passionate fan sharing their vision, I would imagine it would be them.
Evoras said:I considered the idea here and, while it is not 'pantheon-esque' in its current incarnation, I feel it could be transmuted into something that fits both within the Lore and milieu of Terminus. To this end, I considered what fundamentals, or core things, OP was looking to achieve, not at how he envisaged the outcome.
His core criteria were:
1. You can enter in your regular gear, but it won't help much
2. Only by progressing inside, can to go further within
3. Only in here will you be able to gain (crafted using components found within) gear to help
4. It may be possible to bypass 'sufficiently done' content
5. There is no issue with having 'regular; raid loot at the endIt seemed eminently possible. But, to do this is we need to imagine and utilize:
The EIGHTH Atmosphere: Radiative
With this, it is possible to create a hypothetical dungeon:
FELLSTONE MINE (Level 50+ dungeon and raid)
Lore:
Intrepid Dwarves, seeking new types of ore came across an unknown crater. They imagined a meteor may have stuck and buried itself beneath. This led them to imagine a wondrous trove of ores, both known and unknown. Finding a cavern near the surface, the set camp and began to explore. With much ore dug, they moved deeper until the illness started. Many died, causing them to call on the gnomes for advice. The source of the illness was determined to be far below - likely the meteor itself! It seems to radiate upwards, affecting both living and non-living things over time. Indeed, items travelling deeper for long periods of time are a danger to anyone who holds them, should they not be sufficiently acclimated. Indeed, without strengthening, items of cloth and even metal will rot away over time.
Now they seek the aid of powerful, yet foolhardy, adventurers ...
Design:
This follows a simple non-instanced, vertical, dungeon design.Entry Point:
Entry is into the cavern where the settlers and miners live. It provides for basic provisions and some (local only) Bank/Storage. From here, there are two paths: Into the tunnels leading down (Tier-1) or via a lift/drop from where lower points (Tier-2+3 or Tier-3+4) are accessible (for a price). Note that dropping to lower Tiers without sufficient acclimation will get you killed.... quickly. A pickup point in these two zones for extraction is also possible.
While the dwarves will sell basic goods for cash, they prefer ores for anything else. The gnomes are only after insights into the magical interactions of this place and will refuse to deal with anyone unless payment in the form of irradiated ores or items is offered. Some few look to the innards of the mutated species found below .... hoping for insight into their own Gnomish plight.Dungeon:
From Tier-1 at the top, the dungeon becomes progressively more dangerous as you delve deeper - with Tier-5 at the bottom. The danger is partly in the mobs, but mainly due to the atmosphere. Without sufficient acclimation, players will have a cumulative radiative effect on themselves acting as a debuff. In addition most, if not all, mobs will have 'aspects of the radiation' apparent. This may produce differing effects, dependent on the mob's mutation:
Eg: Mobs that splash poisonous or corrosive blood when slashed (better stick to blunt weapons!)
Eg: Mobs that regenerate due to continuous cancerous growth of their bodies.
Higher tier mobs will exhibit more pronounced effects.Boss Lair:
Within Tier-5 will be the 'meteor'. It is a huge, cracked shell that radiates strongly. Indeed, it is this dense, thick shell that is the whole cause of the radiation above. This radiation was a by-product of the magic properties of the shell, the spells put upon it, and the effects of breaching dimensions in order to effect entry into Terminus.
The Good : it means there is no radiation effects within the shell ...
The Bad : There are still many Tier-5 mobs about the place, ready to heed the call of ...
The Ugly : There is a Beast within. It is BIG.
While the boss lives without radiation, it has been slowly acclimating in order that it may escape and gain access to the surface of Terminus. This is probably not good. It is likely immune to Tier-1 effects and somewhat resistant to Tiers 2-3. It should prove susceptible to Tiers 4-5 effects. However, the protective cadre of mutated monsters nearby are fully Tier-5 acclimated. Good luck with that!.
Since the Boss lives outside an irradiated area, the loot in its cavern is free from any irradiation effects. This means it is viable 'Raid loot', just like any other..Gameplay:
In essence this plays out as a basic dungeon, albeit with a twist.1. Progress through the Tiers will require acclimation for any chance of success.
2. There (may) be ore or irradiated equipment in (lootable) areas
3. Mob drops will be irradiated to a degree equal to their Tier.
4. There should be a small number of +1 Tier mobs in any given Tier (wanderers).
5. Irradiated loot will have an active debuff while carried for anyone non/under-acclimated.
This means irradiated loot/gear taken outside will still have debuff effects. This can be
managed as (only active when held/worn) or like 'rabies' and needs a cure/cleanse.
6. (optional) Gear that is not 'strengthened' may get damaged/broken
7. Higher Tier gear can be looted or 'upgraded' via crafting, using ores found.
8. Regular storage/Banking can be used to put 'regular' gear for safe-keeping until later
9. Special Storage/Banking can be used to put 'irradiated' gear.The distinct 'flavour' of this dungeon comes from it having a 'unique' atmosphere. If it is the only place where this atmosphere exists (apart, say, from 'planar' zones) than this provides a particularly difficult challenge for players. With mobs having atmosphere induced abilities and the very walls irradiating them, any party has got its work cut out to succeed. I imagine merely getting to the bottom will take any given group a long time. Add to this that it will take many groups to get acclimated before they can even begin to think about challenging the Raid Boss at the bottom! In addition, they will need utility classes, crafters and who knows what else just to get there.
EDIT: I also forgot to point out that this kind of layered dungeon could be implemented in stages. Though this wouldn't reduce the impact at the planning stage, it would allow for the spreading out of the developemnt overheads for assets and resources over a longer period. Thus teh 'Entry' and Tier-1+2 could be incepted first, with Tier3-4 to follow next a while later, with Tier-5 and the boss last. Each could be delayed dependent on both in-game and IRL factors. Of course, a dungeon is still a big thing.
I feel this meets the criteria the OP listed, but better fits Pantheons tenets and Lore.
Evoras, wonders if he can get a radiation pet?
I like this alot Evoras. Some of the OP's ideas seem fun but also a tad gimmicky which is why they don't seem to fit Pantheon. Stuff like randomly generated zones, not being able to wear the items you have obtained over the levels, instanced areas, etc. Reason why is because Pantheon/Terminus should be treated as a virtual world so the things found within have to make sense and by that I mean they have/should fit the lore somehow and this is what you did I think.
The radiation idea is genius. Bringing things full circle I'd like to expand a tad on your Fellstone Mine.
The radiation has contaminated everything here, from the mobs to the items. So to protect yourself from the mobs here which could get more and more contaminated the deeper you go, and the closer you get to the meteor, you would equip items that are them self contaminated. First you would have to get acclimated just to protect yourself from the environment AND the items, and then you would have to equip the items to protect yourself from the actual mobs. This creates great lore for 'starting this dungeon naked' and 'the only items you can use here are the ones you find here'. Then like Evoras said, you have your boss mobs that are not radiated or fully radiated which drop regular non contaminated items which are the items you CAN use outside this zone.
You said there were dwarves and gnomes here who like ore and info respectively. This creates a great reason for all 3 spheres to have meaning here; adventurers, crafters, lorekeepers. Obviously the adventurers fight their way through everything. But the crafters can help craft radiated items from stuff the mobs drop here as well as mining the radiated ore. Lorekeepers can learn all sorts of things as they get closer and closer to the meteor, which would prove invaluable to the gnomes who shy away from endeavoring too close to the big rock.
Nothing would have to be instanced OR randomized which is actually a good thing. Nothing in Pantheon should feel like a mini-game. Each zone should feel and exist organically. The dungeon should have a beginning and an end so that players can discover, defeat, and move on. With the meteor crashing deep into the ground there could be many floors going down where you could have a bunch of different zonelines splitting up the mines to create plenty of areas for players to explore.
There could even be multiple excavation points started by a few different factions. Maybe some orcs caught wind of what the gnomes and dwarves were doing and so the orcs started digging their own site. Not only could this give multiple access points to the zone giving ample room and space for multiple groups it could also give variety to the types of mobs to fight down below. Some radiated orcs to go with some dwarves and gnomes who were driven mad by the toxic atmosphere.
All in all it sounds like it could be a lot of fun. Very unique while also maintaining to the spirit of Pantheon.
This is what happens when people work together. I wish there were more people out there who could contribute to discussions exactly like Evoras did in this post. Unfortunately, it's much more common for people to blast your idea to the moon and back on why it sucks, or go off on a tangent on why people should stop using their imagination. Embrace creativity! I shared a basic vision and Evoras evolved it into something great, and did such in a way that could actually work for Pantheon! It's amazing. If this idea gets adopted, I just hope the meteor is called "Sarove" and that radiation pets are indeed a thing. I know a couple people who have the $10k pledge where you can help design a raid or dungeon. How many of those pledges would we need to band together to get a zone like this?
Hey guys,
187 asked me to chime in a bit and I just wanted to say holy moly! Lots of ideas in here. We're still working out the kinks in how we will proceed with this sort of pledge perk. It's a very labor intensive part and we want to be able to take as much of what we can from you guys but in a really productive manner. I can't really speak to how yet, but it is something we are going over with, along with other perks from the pledges to make it as effective as possible, while not being overly taxing on dev time so that the majority of their resources can be used on actually making the content. But while making sure you guys enjoy what we end up doing!
When we have a better idea of how that process looks, we'll speak to it. For now, keep the creativity flowing. Keep the discussions going and as soon as we can give you guys some direction and information, we will!
Also this is usually where I geek out massively as a DM but as I don't get to do one myself, I'm just envying all of you! It's really cool to see this level of creativity from you guys.