Forums » The Warrior

To Shield or not to Shield

    • 8 posts
    June 9, 2019 5:24 PM PDT

    I dunno man, I feel like forcing us to use a shield is kind of putting warriors into a box. I mean, there are historical warriors who have used two weapons and own the competition. For example, Musashi with his duel katana style or Dein Wei of romance of the three kingdoms renown, who used two axes (or two Chinese halberds depending on the translations). I used to main a warrior back in EQ and I used to love imagining my self as this massive juggernaut who could just take all the hits and still dish out the pain. 

    Also, we are warriors. If I wanted to see my self as some sort of squad based phalanx unit, then maybe soldier would of been a better name for it? I am fully commited to reviving my old Ogre Warrior, but it would take some of the magic out of it for me if they forced me to use a board and sword. 

    My biggest concern as well is the role of min/maxing in this game. Its why I steered clear of WoW and hated FFXI. Everyone became this cookie cutter 'best combo' just to get a group. Oneof my fonder memories in EQ is being an Ogre tank and having a halfling wipe the floor with me due to his gear which was stamina focused. 

    In all honest, I just want to relive the days of tanking with a Wurmslayer and a Short Sword of the Ykesha in the off hand. 

    Maybe if they gave us the choice to focus on a style of tanking, like dodge, shield or HP based..?

    Just my two pence.

    • 695 posts
    June 28, 2019 5:25 PM PDT

    Voss said:

    I dunno man, I feel like forcing us to use a shield is kind of putting warriors into a box. I mean, there are historical warriors who have used two weapons and own the competition. For example, Musashi with his duel katana style or Dein Wei of romance of the three kingdoms renown, who used two axes (or two Chinese halberds depending on the translations). I used to main a warrior back in EQ and I used to love imagining my self as this massive juggernaut who could just take all the hits and still dish out the pain. 

    Also, we are warriors. If I wanted to see my self as some sort of squad based phalanx unit, then maybe soldier would of been a better name for it? I am fully commited to reviving my old Ogre Warrior, but it would take some of the magic out of it for me if they forced me to use a board and sword. 

    My biggest concern as well is the role of min/maxing in this game. Its why I steered clear of WoW and hated FFXI. Everyone became this cookie cutter 'best combo' just to get a group. Oneof my fonder memories in EQ is being an Ogre tank and having a halfling wipe the floor with me due to his gear which was stamina focused. 

    In all honest, I just want to relive the days of tanking with a Wurmslayer and a Short Sword of the Ykesha in the off hand. 

    Maybe if they gave us the choice to focus on a style of tanking, like dodge, shield or HP based..?

    Just my two pence.

    I hear ya Voss.  I would like nothing more than to relive my days as a shadowknight, but this game doesn't have SHD.  I did however jump onto project1999 (p99) the vanilla EQ private server, and loved it.  If you are looking to relive your Wurmy/ykesha Ogre warrior killing spree, I recommend chekcing that out before PRotF goes live.  It will also help jog your memory out of the nostalgic memories and refresh how much of a hell it was to advance without having an established base (which PRotF will not have).  

    I don't mind the abilities having an emphasis on shields because it only does so if you are trying to tank, in which case you shouldn't be doing more damage than the other classes.  (A warrior however should be able to do as much damage as any other melee... as you said, given the title of "warrior".  Its like saying a boxer isn't capable of hurting someone compared to someone in karate or someone who hits people when they aren't looking... silly.  I do however understand not dealing as much damage if you're hiding behind a shield though.)


    This post was edited by Darch at June 28, 2019 5:27 PM PDT
    • 27 posts
    July 11, 2019 3:07 AM PDT

    Jamie said:

    That is the question. Do you think that warriors should or will use a shield in Pantheon or duel wield when tanking? 

    In EQ it was possible to use a 1h only and shield or 2h but that was not the best option for the warrior in most situations IMO. In EQ2 they kept nerfing the game until the shield was required to tank. Depending on how bad ass you were, some of us could pull off raiding while DW on all but the hardest raid mobs but this required the full set of end game gear which few Guardians were sporting.

    I have seen it done many ways over many games but it seems like the idea of being "defensive" while duel wielding is dead (Until the last stream). What weapons do you expect the warrior to use while tanking? What do you prefer? What is your experience? Are you a 2H fan? Do you even care?

    In EQ2 on many raid mobs you were better off dual wielding, and hot swapping your shield like a temp buff while debuffs were re-applied by teammates or your stoneskins were on cool, etc. Guardian was very dynamic in eq2 and am hoping Pantheon Warrior will be as well.  A shield is another tool in your tool box. Use when needed. Early on im sure it will be often but as you gain experience, (and levels), you will figure out other strategies as well.


    This post was edited by Hemlock at July 11, 2019 3:16 AM PDT
    • 40 posts
    August 4, 2019 12:24 PM PDT

    The reason I quit playing Warrior classes, (you must use a shield to tank mentality) I dunno why but I never did like shields, I guess it's my old EQ mentality where my Warrior could tank not matter what weapon he used, the real issue was always keeping aggro, not how I took a hit.

     

    I've hated this since vanilla WoW, and I still hate the need to use a shield for tanking today. So I see this as yet another game I wont be playing a Warrior in.

     

    I'd probably play a Warrior here if I could tank with my choice of weapons, I also don't see the need to take away shield use for people who like that kind of thing and if they do then all the power to them! but needing a shield to be an effective tank? no thanks!


    This post was edited by Drauk4131 at August 4, 2019 12:29 PM PDT
    • 695 posts
    August 16, 2019 8:52 AM PDT

    Drauk4131 said:

    The reason I quit playing Warrior classes, (you must use a shield to tank mentality) I dunno why but I never did like shields, I guess it's my old EQ mentality where my Warrior could tank not matter what weapon he used, the real issue was always keeping aggro, not how I took a hit.

     

    I've hated this since vanilla WoW, and I still hate the need to use a shield for tanking today. So I see this as yet another game I wont be playing a Warrior in.

     

    I'd probably play a Warrior here if I could tank with my choice of weapons, I also don't see the need to take away shield use for people who like that kind of thing and if they do then all the power to them! but needing a shield to be an effective tank? no thanks!

    I wouldn't completely count out the warrior simply based on the use of a shield or not if you are looking to tank - Just like in the other games that you listed, it wasn't absolutely necassary to use a shiled to tank unless you couldn't take the hits without one... with that said, the warrior will have the highest armor without a shield and capable of using every weapon for a reason.  I think its a safe assumption that you won't need to use a shield for trash mobs most of the time (depending on your gear and party makeup).  The DL will be the tank that can't use a shield, and the Paladin can't dual wield (although I have some assumptions on how being able to time 2h weapon swings and cast spells may be a skill required by Paladin players depending on the GCD/ST/AA mechanics I have yet to witness.

    • 2477 posts
    August 16, 2019 1:58 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    I wouldn't completely count out the warrior simply based on the use of a shield or not if you are looking to tank - Just like in the other games that you listed, it wasn't absolutely necassary to use a shiled to tank unless you couldn't take the hits without one... with that said, the warrior will have the highest armor without a shield and capable of using every weapon for a reason.  I think its a safe assumption that you won't need to use a shield for trash mobs most of the time (depending on your gear and party makeup).  The DL will be the tank that can't use a shield, and the Paladin can't dual wield (although I have some assumptions on how being able to time 2h weapon swings and cast spells may be a skill required by Paladin players depending on the GCD/ST/AA mechanics I have yet to witness.

    I sincerely hope that isn't the case, unless by trash mobs you mean maybe a party fighting low blue con mobs and generally being inefficient.  

    • 695 posts
    August 17, 2019 3:24 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I sincerely hope that isn't the case, unless by trash mobs you mean maybe a party fighting low blue con mobs and generally being inefficient.  

    What I mean by trash mobs is NPCs not worth time using strategy or CC and could likely hit a caster without killing them in a few seconds.  "Efficiency" is knowing that increasing your DPS (and having your healer actually heal) is more efficient than taking longer to kill NPCs just so the healer can sit and watch because the tank is taking no damage.

    (If all NPCs need to be tanked with a shield, the DL will be an absolutely horrible choice for a main tank in any situation other than a "pure" caster that is immune to interrupts/CC.)

    • 2477 posts
    August 19, 2019 10:51 AM PDT

    That's a limited way of thinking and only true if they didn't design the DL with lack of shield (and Warrior + Paladin with) in mind in terms of ability to tank. 

     

    Any group mobs equal or higher level better be worth the time to use CC/strategy or otherwise require groups to employ non-lazy tactics or this game will be a joke. If people can more or less just watch Netflix while passively playing/farming "trash" mobs then adios Pantheon. 

    • 695 posts
    August 23, 2019 2:23 PM PDT

    I get what you're saying @iksar, but there will be a point in the game where players will outgear and outlevel content (otherwise there's literally no reason to obtain gear i.e. no reason to progress in an MMO after a couple of years).  There absolutely will be encounters where a well geared (and skilled) player will be able to multitask, otherwise "adios Pantheon" because it will likely be too challenging for some if only the most skilled player can defeat an encounter if they dedicate 100% of their attention 100% of the time to a video game.  That just won't happen.

    • 39 posts
    September 18, 2019 12:22 PM PDT
    Reading the newsletter today i got the impression that the warrior will need to use a shield to tank effectively. This is unfortunate I really liked how the EQ warrior could tank while dual wielding . This may change my mind about maining a warrior
    • 23 posts
    September 24, 2019 9:26 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    I get what you're saying @iksar, but there will be a point in the game where players will outgear and outlevel content (otherwise there's literally no reason to obtain gear i.e. no reason to progress in an MMO after a couple of years).  There absolutely will be encounters where a well geared (and skilled) player will be able to multitask, otherwise "adios Pantheon" because it will likely be too challenging for some if only the most skilled player can defeat an encounter if they dedicate 100% of their attention 100% of the time to a video game.  That just won't happen.

     

    Agree 100% and they also need to make sure the encounters have some chaos injected to allow players to figure out other ways to win - and just deal with exploits as/if they happen. Do NOT put these encounters on nonflexable rails guys... People will sniff that out and leave - if every encounter is a stupid dps check this game will be WAY less than it could be. 

     

    As far as forced into shields - I feel your pain they are doing the same thing to Rangers... 

    Stop with the finalities on weapon / gear choice - dont be lazy figure out how to make these things work with wider choices...

    • 271 posts
    September 24, 2019 9:36 AM PDT

    Sabatour said:

    Stop with the finalities on weapon / gear choice...

    Don't over-do it.  From the class description page:

    Available Weapons: All weapons, though Warriors are most suited for using shields in their off-hand, with several of their Tanking abilities requiring shields.

    • 1657 posts
    September 25, 2019 1:48 PM PDT

    I've honestly been completely turned away from warrior due to this "focus on shield" that I don't feel fitting for a class called warrior. Gladiator, Myrmidon, guardian or whatever : Why not.

     

    But warrior was allways to me the fighter type that choose weaponry according to the situation.

    • 2477 posts
    September 25, 2019 3:19 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    But warrior was allways to me the fighter type that choose weaponry according to the situation.

    Is that not still the case? If the situation is tanking anything remotely risky then they use a shield, if the situation is to not tank they can grab a two-hander/dual wield. 

     

    Secondly, and more importantly, Warriors will gain access to powerful and dynamic shield-specific combat abilities that are offensive in nature, not just defensive (more on those specific abilities and seeing them in action soon). The goal is for Warriors to take great pride in their shields and feel significantly stronger defensively and offensively because of them.

     

    I don't see this meaning that those shield specific offensive abilities will surpass 2h/dual options for a warrior, just that a warrior that doesn't try to collect all the weapons won't be much worse off in damage or be barred from a group because they have focused on keeping their main/shield up to date but not branched out. 

    • 220 posts
    October 15, 2019 7:07 AM PDT

    I actually like that warriors are encouraged to use shields, always found it weird when tanks started dual wielding to get higher threat and put extra strain on healers.

    • 695 posts
    October 15, 2019 6:20 PM PDT

    Kellie said:

    I actually like that warriors are encouraged to use shields, always found it weird when tanks started dual wielding to get higher threat and put extra strain on healers.

    You mean like the Dire Lord?  ROFL

    All jokes aside, I'm hoping we get to try multiple classes in Alpha, so that we can get some basic parsing done on the tanking mechanics (although the PA, Alpha and even Beta parsing will be far from accurate compared to live endgame (6-9 months after release) when some of the power guilds will be starting to arrange endgame encounters).  This is about the time that a lot of the "challenging" content will start to become trivial as well due to public posting of information on the web... like maps of entire zones and things like "leveling guides" or YouTube videos about which is the "best" DPS, Tank or Healer etc etc etc (according to one guy's opinion that happens to have followers).

    I am all for cool shield abilities after seeing some of those wicked shields in the game (mirror shield that reflects spells?!!?  Yes please... who needs a DL now?)

    • 220 posts
    October 16, 2019 2:42 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    Kellie said:

    I actually like that warriors are encouraged to use shields, always found it weird when tanks started dual wielding to get higher threat and put extra strain on healers.

    You mean like the Dire Lord?  ROFL

     

    I was more referring to Warriors in classic warcraft, that end up being better off tanking with dual wield (for threat) when they where clearly designed to tank with shields in warcraft. I have no problem with dire lords tanking with dual wield or two handed as they are designed from the ground up to do that.

    (edit: spelling is hard in the morning)


    This post was edited by Kellie at October 16, 2019 2:44 AM PDT
    • 12 posts
    October 16, 2019 11:48 AM PDT

    no doubt shield for tanking, i have duel yield tanked in eq , but the damage mitigation, and skills that may require a shield are always geared towrds tanking for the most part, even in some games certain crafting tree allow for shield spike to be made that you can attach to a shield