Forums » The Warrior

To Shield or not to Shield

    • 39 posts
    February 22, 2017 1:51 PM PST

    Umbra said:

    I personally prefer a 2H sword, but am hoping that all tank classes can use whatever weaponset they want and that it is adequate for end game tanking. Yeah, a shield might give you a better defensive bonus over other combinations, and that's fine, but I hope that all types of weapons are viable.

    I hope to see there be ingherent benefits to using specific weapons. If you use a 2-hnder for example, you should be better at dishing out damage at the expense of defense, but in a defensive style stance, you can still have a chance to parry/riposte attacks. Where on the other hand with the sword and shield you'd be able to block attacks wholy or partially to mitigate more damage at the expense of offense while also generating more threat.

    Then getting a lil deeper, say a 2h defender canparry attacks against a defensive target while a sword and board may be able to create a sort of shield wall, maybe mitigating conal attacks or certain  AoEs that might have otherwise hit allies around or behind them.

    There's a lot to play with and while I feel the sword and shield should be the better option defensively for a tank, I think there are plenty of ways that you could make the 2h a defensive option through alternative means. Time will tell for sure. All the same, I am looking forward to getting a good old fashioned new twist on the classic tank. :) So many MMORPGs these days the tanks feel so homogenized.

    • 9 posts
    March 3, 2017 9:30 PM PST

    In my opinion, it comes down to how the threat generation system is handled and what it's based on. Will it be the power of the hit, the speed of the swing vs. other incoming damage. Will a bash ability generate the same threat capabilities as dual wielding or using a 2hd weapon to land the big damage?  Will reposte be a factor with dual wield vs. 2nd weapons? Will there be effective threat generation abilities like what was added later in EQ (Berate line)? Until we have full answers to all of these questions, I think it's going to be trial by error as to what is more effective and the trade off between dual wield, 2hd and sword+board. 

    I've read that AI is smarter and being a tank won't be the same so having snap threat abilities like taunt / ae taunt as the "oh crap" buttons wouldn't be a bad idea but then, I also don't want to sit and spam the same three buttons over and over while auto attacking and hitting taunt to get the orc off the casters every 3 seconds.

    • 16 posts
    March 6, 2017 2:01 AM PST

    I like the idea of each race having a specific weapon bonus. On a side note I always liked duel wielding as a warrior in EQ. Advantages and disadvantages to whatever you choose I suppose?

    • 11 posts
    March 7, 2017 10:50 PM PST

    It's going to be interesting to see how DPS and threat works in the game. I'm a big believer that war/pally tanks are the heartiest of tanks but as such they should be required to use shields or die from spike damage. I think there's a place for tanks that don't use shields but there needs to be a trade off of some kind.

    • 1327 posts
    March 8, 2017 6:23 AM PST

    Horse said:

    I think there's a place for tanks that don't use shields but there needs to be a trade off of some kind.

    Yes, and the trade off should be dying :P

    Okay, maybe that's a bit extreme in a group scenario, but they would of course take a lot more damage.

    • 11 posts
    March 8, 2017 7:38 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    Yes, and the trade off should be dying :P

    Okay, maybe that's a bit extreme in a group scenario, but they would of course take a lot more damage.

    Agree, should take lots of spikey damage in return for greater DPS. A lot depends on how they will handle threat. Of course they could require shields to survive but then give warriors/pallys threat producing shield slams etc. I'm sure they will find the right balance between EQ1 and WoW threat (which is a nonexistent and dumbs down the game).

    • 1327 posts
    March 8, 2017 8:32 AM PST

    Horse said:

    Bazgrim said:

    Yes, and the trade off should be dying :P

    Okay, maybe that's a bit extreme in a group scenario, but they would of course take a lot more damage.

    Agree, should take lots of spikey damage in return for greater DPS. A lot depends on how they will handle threat. Of course they could require shields to survive but then give warriors/pallys threat producing shield slams etc. I'm sure they will find the right balance between EQ1 and WoW threat (which is a nonexistent and dumbs down the game).

    DPS will certainly contribute to threat generation. I'm sure there will be shield bashes to help contribute to DPS, but more importantly I'm also sure there will be some abilities that increase the amount of threat generated by your attacks. For example, if you just have one sword and a shield and don't bash, but have an ability that doubles that amount of threat generated by your melee, you will have the same amount of threat as someone that is duel wielding two of the same sword. So assuming all else is equal, it will theoretically possible for a sword-and-board to hold aggro as well as a duel wielder. The advantage of the duel wielder would be that they are of course actually dealing the damage and therefore killing the monster faster, rather than basically just acting as if they were dealing more damage.

    I'm sure it'll be more in-depth than that, but that's just a basic example of how sword-and-board can hold aggro just as well. In fact, I hope that'll be the preferred method because having the tank take less damage is more important than dealing more damage.

    • 25 posts
    March 8, 2017 1:52 PM PST

    The way i have viewed your classice Warrior Paladin and Evil plate tank types.. well never seems to be the way they stay very long in any situation or game so If i were to make a sort of wish list of a LOGICAL  sort of Roleplay version of protection based classes.

    Warriors,  Wear plate armor   Method of protection  Wide array of all sorts of weapon skills.  The ability to use a shield at the same efficency as how a paladin/sk would use a shield.  To me a True Warrior is a master at arms.  They are able to pick up anything on the Battle field and use it in defence of their mates.  Using a more Rage based system of say spell/ability casting in order to keep mobs oh them.  As in keeping with what i used too a warrior should have a very limited magical arsenal if any.  We should be able to do the most with armors/weapons of all sorts to a great effect.. Think of it as a buffet of skills for the end goal of saving lives.  mmmm Buffets...

     

    What about our holy and unholy counterparts?   Well if you keep with the flow here.. Light magics and healing etc "standard pally stuff" should help off set the lack of physical use of armors/weapons off hand abilities etc.  Lowering himself down behind his shield.  Pallydahar readys his words of ouchsmite .. etc.  Same with the Shadowknight types.  They sacrafice the wide arsenal of weapons for the spells they get.  

     

    As of right now it matters not to me of Who is the best at what and etc etc.. It has been proven many times that skill/attention span most time outweighs gear etc etc.  I guess i would like to think of the protection classes as all cut from the same cloth, but depending on how bad our childhood was we pick the method of how to fight.

     

    Personaly i would love to be able to defend folks with a wide array of physical things.. and to the point about 2 shields.. i say why not?   Our offence will be in the dumps but imagine a mad man screaming at you about who knows what running at you in full plate gear with 2 shields flailing.  THATS RIGHT you attenion would be on him would it not?    I need not say more !!

    • 8 posts
    March 8, 2017 3:50 PM PST

    Kecho said:

    This Dwarf slams his Axe against his Shield.  Who said all we could do was sword and board?  What about me Axe??????????

    2nd!

    • 54 posts
    March 17, 2017 6:26 PM PDT

    It should depends on how strong the group is. 

     

    Is there a lot of DPS? Run Shield to absorb damage.

    Need a bit more DPS? Run dual wield or 2H.

     

    My play style is to be the damage taker and let the group do the damage.


    This post was edited by Makinelly at March 17, 2017 6:27 PM PDT
    • 575 posts
    March 19, 2017 2:55 PM PDT

    Pretty sure I saw some info early on that paladins would be able to use 2 shields, but that information is most likely outdated and from the original team.  I would definitely like to see multiple stances for warriors so that we could be more than just a meat shield in a group. Soloing as a tank is usually extremely slow since we're built to take hits rather than dishing them out.  Give me an aggressive/offensive stance or two, a 2 hander, and maybe a couple abilities that can only be used under these circumstances and I think I'll be in good shape. More than anything though, I would love to see deep AA specs.  5 different trees for each class, 250 points total.  You can use 125 points at any given time and can interchange them freely while out of combat and save up to 10 "builds."  There may be a "cookie cutter" build that people want to use the majority of the time and that's fine, but there should be enough different gameplay scenarios where other builds have their chance to shine.  Then, a warrior who has accumulated all 250 points, could theoretically be able to have an ideal build for all situations.  This would allow people to truly master their class and be extra dynamic/flexible compared to others who haven't spent as much time progressing their characters.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 19, 2017 2:55 PM PDT
    • 137 posts
    March 19, 2017 3:14 PM PDT

    We've had some great conversations about shields.  Here are two of my favorite:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2482/dual-wielding-shields

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5067/dark-knight-and-shields

    • 575 posts
    March 21, 2017 10:10 AM PDT

    Ahh yes, I have read both of those threads.  Thank you for sharing Shai.  I like to think of warriors as walking/talking meat shields anyway ... just give me a shield with some arms and legs and I'm good to go!

    • 30 posts
    March 26, 2017 4:07 AM PDT

    I ohonestly hope that they give the Warriors more offensive/harder hitting abilities as a Shell back tank. It was hell on earth in Vanguard to level my Warrior in the beginning (No heals), and I constantly had to have a pocket healer with me until I hit the high end. Now that I think of it, I still had to have a healer with me, unlike my Dread Knight who seemed to tank any and everything at will, due to life taps.

     

    Again, I hope that they can iron out the issues that comes into tank balance in almost every MMORPG. 

     

    On a note, DKs in Vanguard on crit with a two handed weapon did double damage which was an awesome dynamic considering the more damage they did with special life tap abilities, the more they healed themselves.

    I'll be playing a Warrior more than likely or a Necromancer if they make it in and will be watching how Warriors dynamic will play out. Hopefully, they won't become second class citizens to both Paladins and Dire lords like they did to DKs and Paladins in Vanguard.

     


    This post was edited by Gomok at March 26, 2017 4:25 AM PDT
    • 43 posts
    March 29, 2017 3:56 AM PDT

    Well, a good warrior is an alive warrior.

     

    2H weapons look cool obviously, but most warriors in mankind history wore a shield in order not to die easily, unless they had a very heavy armor. So i think it should be a serious option for warriors, with good skills being associated. Greataxe or greatsword warrior in leather for example, should stay a gimmick. 

     

    Warriors playing as a tank is a classic. That's often what people want them do. If you ask a warrior player, he will want to play 2H Greatsword and rampage most of the time. But if you ask the party, they will all say "please take a shield and tank while we cast and shoot". Most other classes are supposed to be weaker in melee physical combat, so warriors should be one of the few tanking classes in this game.

     

    That being said, it is not a reason to close other options, and the warrior should have the choice, a wide array of weapons to choose from. Even bows, crossbows, throwing daggers if they spec into it. Just make different skills than ranger, etc. Warrior is master of warfare, and yet he can't be a master at everyting at the same time, he should be given most possibilities at a given time in this regard.

     

    Cheers


    This post was edited by Gideon at March 29, 2017 3:59 AM PDT