Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Preempt Over Leveled Farmers

    • 373 posts
    January 8, 2017 2:02 AM PST

    Beyond the Progeny system, I would think that there would be very little reason for a higher level character to participate in any activity that impinges on the gameplay experience of other players that are of lower level. Especially when those lower level players are focused on gameplay in areas designed for their level range (except on a PvP server).

    I don't buy the ethical, our community can deal with it stance either. I have heard that so many times and still see poor sportsmanship. It's sounds great though in theory, in practice....there seems no way to consistently, effectively and fairly administer that as a community with each offense that occurs. I know some will be polite and offer to help or give the younglings their space. But not everyone will.

    It's also a source of tinder for community flame wars and I'm soooo over that. I have witnessed higher leveled players dominate lower level zones, steal mobs, and utilize their faster mounts (etc.) to out farm mats and whatnot in every title I have played. Not saying it happened all the time, not saying it happens everytime I log in. But the behavior has been there.

    To be clear though, I am not saying that, as a community, we shouldn't strive for that ideal. Only that enforcing everyone to oblige by it is nigh impossible. 

    But locking people out of content is absolutely not the solution either.


    This post was edited by OakKnower at January 8, 2017 2:12 AM PST
    • 10 posts
    January 8, 2017 3:36 PM PST

    Caveats:  I'm recently new here and still catching up on the deep forums, so this may be an uninformed post; also, I read the first few pages, but my head was spinning, and I'm replying without having read the entire thread.

    From the tenets:  "An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward."

    Is there any reason to believe that there will be zone mobs with specific loot that begets farming/camping?

    Or is the discussion presuming that issues in other games will be present in Pantheon?

    Perhaps the really good items will be at the end of a dungeon crawl, and the guy holding the really big hammer won't respawn until all the guards leading up to him are killed after they respawn.  I don't know.  Something like that should put a damper on camping, as it will take real work to get to him (of course, then you have to worry about someone following behind you and sniping the end-boss after you kill the last set of guards).

    I have to admit that I'm still wrapping my head around the intricacies of no instances.  Short of open world PvP (where you just kill the guy sniping the boss halfway through the fight), what are the actual options for the community to self-police?

    • 1284 posts
    January 8, 2017 3:47 PM PST

    oort said:

    I have to admit that I'm still wrapping my head around the intricacies of no instances.  Short of open world PvP (where you just kill the guy sniping the boss halfway through the fight), what are the actual options for the community to self-police?

    If 20 years of MMO experience taught me anything, it's that communities can't police. What they can do is enforce some sense of vigilante justice where they just hop on the bandwagon and alienate players who are accused of things, regardless of the evidence.

    And then there's EQ where open world content is basically PvP anyways because you can just train mobs on people. It's an indirect form of PvP, but it's PvP nonetheless.

    GM intervention is the only thing that actually matters. People posturing at eachother in chat channels is meaningless.


    This post was edited by Liav at January 8, 2017 3:47 PM PST
    • 37 posts
    January 8, 2017 3:47 PM PST

    Glad to see some of the developer comments here.  I feel like the concern is warranted will receive adequate attention.

    • 604 posts
    January 8, 2017 4:18 PM PST

    oort said:

    Caveats:  I'm recently new here and still catching up on the deep forums, so this may be an uninformed post; also, I read the first few pages, but my head was spinning, and I'm replying without having read the entire thread.

    From the tenets:  "An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward."

    Is there any reason to believe that there will be zone mobs with specific loot that begets farming/camping?

    Or is the discussion presuming that issues in other games will be present in Pantheon?

    Perhaps the really good items will be at the end of a dungeon crawl, and the guy holding the really big hammer won't respawn until all the guards leading up to him are killed after they respawn.  I don't know.  Something like that should put a damper on camping, as it will take real work to get to him (of course, then you have to worry about someone following behind you and sniping the end-boss after you kill the last set of guards).

    I have to admit that I'm still wrapping my head around the intricacies of no instances.  Short of open world PvP (where you just kill the guy sniping the boss halfway through the fight), what are the actual options for the community to self-police?

    What can the community do, well if its a player being an ass they can spread the word (and no thats not just bandwagoning), in a GROUP centric game its hard to do anything if you cant find a group. If that doesnt solve the problem and it gets really bad they can /report to the GM and have them investigate. Its a bit trickier with a guild but is basically the same thing...and I have seen entire guilds get busted by the GMs for being asshats with an I dont care attitude

     

    • 81 posts
    January 8, 2017 7:23 PM PST

    In my EQ experience (Vanilla-Velious) more often than not, another group was camping something I wanted, not some maxed level individual.  I don't remember ever saying to myself that it was a problem while I played.  I definitely camped some crap for my alts every once in awhile, but it was cheaper and quicker to just buy it most of the time.  Even at lv 50 a hoard of crap could kill my mage if I wasn't careful and I was losing money by not doing a normal camp, so the risk wasn't always worth it.  Easy solution is to not make out-leveled mobs so completely useless, allow lower level enemies to actually hit you and do some damage, make a minimum damage per hit or something.  It should be easy but my goodness, the games nowadays, a 800 lbs level 1 troll might as well be a pussy cat.


    This post was edited by geatz at January 8, 2017 7:32 PM PST
    • 641 posts
    January 10, 2017 4:27 AM PST

    Sevens said:

    oort said:

    Caveats:  I'm recently new here and still catching up on the deep forums, so this may be an uninformed post; also, I read the first few pages, but my head was spinning, and I'm replying without having read the entire thread.

    From the tenets:  "An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward."

    Is there any reason to believe that there will be zone mobs with specific loot that begets farming/camping?

    Or is the discussion presuming that issues in other games will be present in Pantheon?

    Perhaps the really good items will be at the end of a dungeon crawl, and the guy holding the really big hammer won't respawn until all the guards leading up to him are killed after they respawn.  I don't know.  Something like that should put a damper on camping, as it will take real work to get to him (of course, then you have to worry about someone following behind you and sniping the end-boss after you kill the last set of guards).

    I have to admit that I'm still wrapping my head around the intricacies of no instances.  Short of open world PvP (where you just kill the guy sniping the boss halfway through the fight), what are the actual options for the community to self-police?

    What can the community do, well if its a player being an ass they can spread the word (and no thats not just bandwagoning), in a GROUP centric game its hard to do anything if you cant find a group. If that doesnt solve the problem and it gets really bad they can /report to the GM and have them investigate. Its a bit trickier with a guild but is basically the same thing...and I have seen entire guilds get busted by the GMs for being asshats with an I dont care attitude

     

    Agreed. Most people have more than a single grain of logic, and they don't just issolate a player or even a guild for one rumored instance of bad behavior. But when there's a history of months or even years of a person or a guild being asshats and more and more people have personal experience with the offenders, impacts start to pile up. Fewer people will group with them. Fewer people will go to that guild. Greater numbers of people will refuse to sell to them (which is another reason to avoid things like an afk bazaar trading system). I've seen more than a few examples of someone starting a new character to escape their previous reputation, and even been guilded with a few that I found out much later were a notorious jerk in a previous incarnation adn who learned the impacts and changed their behavior on a new character. 

    • 665 posts
    January 10, 2017 6:17 AM PST

    Honestly, if I am camping something after a while I get bored and I leave.

    I'll always come back, but after a while I need a change of scenery, or interaction. Part of it is hearing- just when I left, soandso came in and got the thing- heh. C'est la seconde vie.

     

    However- I always thought that maybe there is a GM watching, over-watching if you will, over everything like a dungeon master in old D&D who has made up their mind quietly that ther group will not make it past a certain encounter by quietly adjusting the RNG or drop tables for a favored (many "soul-stamps") or caustic character. Which could change with the Dev watching? maybe the one Dev benevolent to the char with many soul-stamps was playing a meta-game following one in game God, and the next Dev that comes in on shift- happens to follow the evil God and knows the other dev was particularly fond of the soul stamped player and in turn, this "evil" dev decided to manipulate monsters making them undercons or writing in a special spell they normally woud not have. Causing the poor soul stamped player to  have a tougher time, maybe even sufffer a few deaths, muahahahaha!.

     

    • 233 posts
    January 10, 2017 8:10 AM PST

    Aradune said:

    I've posted in more detail about this in the past, but here's a quick summary:

    We don't want to implement TLC.  Creating artificial limitations like that just isn't where we want to go if at all avoidable.  We continue to talk about this very real issue and appreciate this thread and others.

    I want to believe there are ways to address this issue without something as draconian as the TLC I put into the FV server way back in the day.

    But that doesn't mean that we don't need to do something to deal with the problem of bottom feeding, of higher level players ruining the fun of lower level players who are in an area designed for their level range.

    So we continue to think and listen and take the issue seriously.  TLC in it's original form would be a last resort -- I think we can all do better, devs and community.

    Based on this, here's my prediction.

    The last resort will be required.  In 2017+ , community policing does not work.  Getting devs / CSR's / Game GM's involved does not scale.  If PRF ends up being successful enough to keep the lights on, there will not be enough GM's, ever, nor will they be able to respond in a timely manner (near real time).  Been this way in every MMO so far with even slightly similar issues, I see no reason why it would ever change.

    I am in favor of what EQ2 did, regarding TLC;  kill anything you want, but if it's grey, all you get are crafting mats and quest drops.

    However, I would add one new feature.  Instead of only being able to mentor down to a group members level, I would prefer the ability to set my level to any arbitrary lower value.  If I am level 50, but right now, I want to be level 25, presto, I'm level 25.  Now I can fight creatures as a level appropriate player.

    That way, there's no more level 50 pet classes AFK perma-camping level 20 bosses. (or ice giants for plat! ) Ever.  You want to kill it and get that great item?  Temporarily de-level yourself and make the attempt like any other player.  As a leveling player and a max level player, this seems fair, fun, and challenging to me.

    • 1284 posts
    January 10, 2017 8:12 AM PST

    Or we can just let people of any level farm because it's really not that big of a deal.

    • 233 posts
    January 10, 2017 8:20 AM PST

    Liav said:

    Or we can just let people of any level farm because it's really not that big of a deal.

    Speaking only from my personal experience, it's a huge deal. It bothers a lot of people.  Players get very angry over this issue. Today.  Right now, in every game that permits over leveled farmers.

    So, while I acknolwedge your perspective of "it's really not that big of a deal" , I suspect you'll find a glib response will not satisfy paying customers in the target demographic.

    • 1284 posts
    January 10, 2017 8:34 AM PST

    vjek said:

    Liav said:

    Or we can just let people of any level farm because it's really not that big of a deal.

    Speaking only from my personal experience, it's a huge deal. It bothers a lot of people.  Players get very angry over this issue. Today.  Right now, in every game that permits over leveled farmers.

    So, while I acknolwedge your perspective of "it's really not that big of a deal" , I suspect you'll find a glib response will not satisfy paying customers in the target demographic.

    This thread is a pretty mixed bag of answers so I don't think things are quite that clearly cut. It does bother some people, but plenty of people are bothered by the opposite too. The same is true for just about any topic on this forum, some more than others.

    A future without farming seems pretty bleak, in my eyes.

    • 132 posts
    January 10, 2017 9:30 AM PST

    8 Pages.

    A lot of arguments and shots fired. A lot of overreaction.

    Anyone have more suggestions to help the dev team make a decision on how to handle this?

    Still trying to think of things here

     

    • 496 posts
    January 11, 2017 2:20 PM PST

    So if I want to take my lvl 60 to farm an FBSS for my alt you're saying I should have to bring a full group to do so? This is quite possibly the worst idea I have seen yet on these forums. What you experienced was what happens when a game has been out for a long time and the older areas become empty. People take advantage and farm plat by farm old drops to sell. Hell if you were only looking for xp you could have went to a few places in velious and gotten better than Lguk but I am betting you went there for that same reason, the drops.

    • 373 posts
    January 11, 2017 11:03 PM PST

    vjek said:

    Aradune said:

    I've posted in more detail about this in the past, but here's a quick summary:

    We don't want to implement TLC.  Creating artificial limitations like that just isn't where we want to go if at all avoidable.  We continue to talk about this very real issue and appreciate this thread and others.

    I want to believe there are ways to address this issue without something as draconian as the TLC I put into the FV server way back in the day.

    But that doesn't mean that we don't need to do something to deal with the problem of bottom feeding, of higher level players ruining the fun of lower level players who are in an area designed for their level range.

    So we continue to think and listen and take the issue seriously.  TLC in it's original form would be a last resort -- I think we can all do better, devs and community.

    Based on this, here's my prediction.

    The last resort will be required.  In 2017+ , community policing does not work.  Getting devs / CSR's / Game GM's involved does not scale.  If PRF ends up being successful enough to keep the lights on, there will not be enough GM's, ever, nor will they be able to respond in a timely manner (near real time).  Been this way in every MMO so far with even slightly similar issues, I see no reason why it would ever change.

    I am in favor of what EQ2 did, regarding TLC;  kill anything you want, but if it's grey, all you get are crafting mats and quest drops.

    However, I would add one new feature.  Instead of only being able to mentor down to a group members level, I would prefer the ability to set my level to any arbitrary lower value.  If I am level 50, but right now, I want to be level 25, presto, I'm level 25.  Now I can fight creatures as a level appropriate player.

    That way, there's no more level 50 pet classes AFK perma-camping level 20 bosses. (or ice giants for plat! ) Ever.  You want to kill it and get that great item?  Temporarily de-level yourself and make the attempt like any other player.  As a leveling player and a max level player, this seems fair, fun, and challenging to me.

    Great post vjek. Especially....

    I am in favor of what EQ2 did, regarding TLC;  kill anything you want, but if it's grey, all you get are crafting mats and quest drops.

    It liberates the possibility of over-farming or hyper-farming irrelevant items. Irrelevant in the sense that relevant items should be exceptionally level specific.

    However, I would add one new feature.  Instead of only being able to mentor down to a group members level, I would prefer the ability to set my level to any arbitrary lower value.  If I am level 50, but right now, I want to be level 25, presto, I'm level 25.  Now I can fight creatures as a level appropriate player.

    Engagement in most content should also be level specific IMO. If we appreciate the tenets that 'content is King' 'understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding' and that we as a collective group of likeminded people have 'an expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward' then the game design should reflect this in all ways.

    I really don't see where the above is unfair or disregards the tenets of the game.

    One caveat of note would be to cancel item bonuses, effects, and modifiers that are not appropriate to any down-regulated level.

    Thanks for your post!

    • 65 posts
    January 12, 2017 1:07 AM PST

    Hey guys, I know my attitude tends to run way to the "laissez faire" end of things, but.....I do realize that a lot of other people tend to feel differently on things like this.  So, rather than just tow the hard line hehehe....I put my thinking cap on and thought I'd propose an idea you might like.  i think I read all of the posts before this, so I hope I'm not just repeating someone else's idea.

    1.  Rather than chase players of a certain levels off of camps, the devs, upon hearing (and looking into) of troublesome items/camps, could make certain items SHORT TERM (like 24 hrs, one week, etc.) NO DROP and/or LORE ITEM.  This would still allow high level mains looking to score an item for their alt a reasonable option, without bottlenecking lower leveled players.  At the same time, I think it would eliminate large scale gear camping for gold purposes.  At the very least, it would make the bot gold sellers less efficient.

    The items would just have a timer built into them before you could trade or loot multiples.  The timer would be scaled per current trends and drop rates.

    It would have the advantage of GM's not having to "interfere directly" in the doings of players, but just tweak behind the scenes.  I.e. nobody could ever complain the GM's punished them. 

    Is this something that could be coded without much fuss?


    This post was edited by corpserunner at January 12, 2017 1:09 AM PST
    • 604 posts
    January 12, 2017 3:13 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    So if I want to take my lvl 60 to farm an FBSS for my alt you're saying I should have to bring a full group to do so? This is quite possibly the worst idea I have seen yet on these forums. What you experienced was what happens when a game has been out for a long time and the older areas become empty. People take advantage and farm plat by farm old drops to sell. Hell if you were only looking for xp you could have went to a few places in velious and gotten better than Lguk but I am betting you went there for that same reason, the drops.

    The problem most have is not of a single high level player camping an item for an alt...usually they get the item and move on

    the problem is when its someone farming an item ( usually to sell for money), they dont just move on when they get the item but monopolize the camp for weeks or months

    That is what everyone is worried about

    • 641 posts
    January 12, 2017 4:47 AM PST

    corpserunner said:

    Hey guys, I know my attitude tends to run way to the "laissez faire" end of things, but.....I do realize that a lot of other people tend to feel differently on things like this.  So, rather than just tow the hard line hehehe....I put my thinking cap on and thought I'd propose an idea you might like.  i think I read all of the posts before this, so I hope I'm not just repeating someone else's idea.

    1.  Rather than chase players of a certain levels off of camps, the devs, upon hearing (and looking into) of troublesome items/camps, could make certain items SHORT TERM (like 24 hrs, one week, etc.) NO DROP and/or LORE ITEM.  This would still allow high level mains looking to score an item for their alt a reasonable option, without bottlenecking lower leveled players.  At the same time, I think it would eliminate large scale gear camping for gold purposes.  At the very least, it would make the bot gold sellers less efficient.

    The items would just have a timer built into them before you could trade or loot multiples.  The timer would be scaled per current trends and drop rates.

    It would have the advantage of GM's not having to "interfere directly" in the doings of players, but just tweak behind the scenes.  I.e. nobody could ever complain the GM's punished them. 

    Is this something that could be coded without much fuss?

    I'm going to have to digest this one for a little while, but at first pass I dont think it's a bad notion. 

    Lore items are a good first step. At the very least it means that a farmer has to transfer the item to another character (possibly account) in order to stay at the camp. The idea of making the item temporarily no drop is interesting. A person could conceivably still farm the item if they had multiple characters that could hold the camp solo. But it would eliminate a lot of the issue. 

    It would be really interesting if the timer duration scaled dynamically based on the contention for the given item. It should be relatively easy for analytics code to trend the length of time that a particular named or placeholder remained alive and use that as an indicator of how in demand that particular camp is. Based on that, the no drop timer could be extended in cases of something like the Frenzied Ghoul with a life expectancy of a few miliseconds. 

    Its sort of a new take on the myth of the old EQ camp code that people thought must exist. 

    I wouldnt say I'm fully on board yet, but I'm open to hearing it talked thru. 

    • 135 posts
    January 12, 2017 6:21 AM PST

    corpserunner said:

    Rather than chase players of a certain levels off of camps, the devs, upon hearing (and looking into) of troublesome items/camps, could make certain items SHORT TERM (like 24 hrs, one week, etc.) NO DROP and/or LORE ITEM.  This would still allow high level mains looking to score an item for their alt a reasonable option, without bottlenecking lower leveled players.  At the same time, I think it would eliminate large scale gear camping for gold purposes.  At the very least, it would make the bot gold sellers less efficient.

    The items would just have a timer built into them before you could trade or loot multiples.  The timer would be scaled per current trends and drop rates.

    While I am drawn to the appeal of having some danger added into every type of mob killing, even the high level farming stuff, that may be a delicate and dangerous task. Your solution seems simple and elegantly addresses the issue of mass farming. If a max level farmer can only grab one item and then has to leave, then the problem is mitigated to a large degree. I would think even if some of the other proposed mechanics are considered, that this should be considered alongside them. It's just good stuff.

    As far as I can tell it seems like the NO DROP and LORE ITEM combination is the best option. If the goal is to prevent farming, then it does the best job of it. However, if you're a legit player farming an item for an alt or doing something along those lines, being unable to trade an item for a few days or a week isn't going to incvonenience you too terribly.

    • 496 posts
    January 12, 2017 7:02 AM PST

    Sevens said:

    Enitzu said:

    So if I want to take my lvl 60 to farm an FBSS for my alt you're saying I should have to bring a full group to do so? This is quite possibly the worst idea I have seen yet on these forums. What you experienced was what happens when a game has been out for a long time and the older areas become empty. People take advantage and farm plat by farm old drops to sell. Hell if you were only looking for xp you could have went to a few places in velious and gotten better than Lguk but I am betting you went there for that same reason, the drops.

    The problem most have is not of a single high level player camping an item for an alt...usually they get the item and move on

    the problem is when its someone farming an item ( usually to sell for money), they dont just move on when they get the item but monopolize the camp for weeks or months

    That is what everyone is worried about

    And I can agree in that mindset but most of the purposed changes/fixes to this include cutting out the ability to farm items. Nothing I have seen posted in this thread (granted I didn't sift through all the pages) makes any viable way to combat this issue. Pantheon is based on the open world, go anywhere, do anything mindset. That is what people fight so hard on these forums to protect. Yet some are advocating to throw that to the wind for fear of camp disputes? 

    Solution 1 - Make no loot drop for those too high lvl
    You just forced the playerbase to level multiple toons just so they can attempt to farm other areas of the game. Hell what if I need leather? I can't kill level 20 mobs to skin? This solution is quite possibly the worst thing you could do to an open world game.

    Solution 2 - Put mentoring in game and only allow lvl appropriate for loot
    Better but still not a great idea. Not a big fan of mentoring. IMO it's simply an attempt to give content replayability but if that's the case why do we bother leveling up? Magically giving an NPC the ability to make you forget all you've learned and experienced is far fetched even for a fantasy game. But so far this is the best option for viability if it had to be done. But if mentoring is in they need to find a way to make it worth it and not just "because you can't get loot any other way". Give perks to mentoring. 

    Solution 3 - Make popular items short term
    Uh what? Take items and turn them into short term solutions? How does that help anything? So the higher levels now need to camp said items multiple times which did nothing but exacerbate the entire issue.

    So far in this thread the best response I've seen is:

    NoobieDoo said:

    -Multiple mobs can drop the same magical items. Why not have 3 mobs located in 3 very different locations around the world drop a FBSS or similar sought after item? As long as the world is big enough, this could help spread out the potential farmers. This could also help alleviate any issue with having most items tradeable, even really powerful items.

    -Have an exchange merchant/vendor NPC for mats. Have an NPC that higher level players can take their high level mats to and exchange them for lower tiered mats. This way a level 50 doesn't have to spend time farming tier 1 leather and tier 1 iron, potentially taking over an area where low level players might play at. The high level player can farm mats around their level and for example take a tier 5 material like obsidian and exchange it at a vendor to get 50 tier 1 iron ores.

    -Have a robust mentor system where players can receive good benefit from mentoring lower level players. Rather than just having a mentor program so that higher level players can play with lower level friends, actually have it as a prominent feature where a high level player would want to spend a considerable amount of time mentoring even strangers. Maybe link AAs to mentoring or other types of rewards for doing so.

    -Mobs have behavioral AI that causes them to react accordingly to dire situations such as a level 10 mob being attacked by a level 50 player and knowing there is no hope of winning.

    I've suggested a couple times now that loot needs to not be tied to 1 named mob in a static location but to all mobs of a 'type'. For instance, Gnoll Shaman across an entire dungeon should have the same chance to spawn a named in their place through out the zone. Making it impossible to "camp" any certain item. If you want that named then you farm those mobs which could be spread out around the zone. This gives a lot of people the chance to get the named mobs at the same time. 

    The exchange vendor is a great idea to keep the over farming of lower lvl mats down. Would be no reason for a max lvl to farm low lvl mats and take mobs from lower lvls with this in place. 

    Essentially there are a lot of ways to handle this that don't involve telling anyone "you can't do that because you leveled too much". Cutting content from anyone is not what the game is about. If we really didn't want things being farmed by higher lvls then why not just ask for level ranges on gear? Or making most good gear soulbound? Those would both solve this issue a lot as well. But again it takes away the freedom.


    This post was edited by Enitzu at January 12, 2017 7:04 AM PST
    • 561 posts
    January 12, 2017 7:05 AM PST

    When I played FFXI, I loved the risk vs reward when it came to many facets of the game.  I would go on mining adventures on my Paladin/Ninja trying to get adamantium, and it was very challenging.  Basically I had to carry a bunch of invis pots, deodorant, and whatever made you walk quietly.  This was because different mobs had different detection methods; some could smell or hear you even if you were invis.  If I was ever unfortunate enough to be spotted by an NPC, I would barely be able to solo them.  2 mobs was a guaranteed death.  Something as simple as "mining" was actually very dangerous in that game.  It was a great way to make money because there was a large demand for the ores, mostly because of how hard they were to acquire.  That's what needs to be implemented in Pantheon correctly.  If people can just run safely around every zone and the rarity of the ores are just based on a % of each mining opportunity, there won't be a REAL value on those ores.  FFXI got things right by putting the mining locations all over a difficult zone that nobody could just solo through.  You had to be extremely sneaky, aware of your surroundings, and opportunistic.  If you messed up, you're gonna have a corpse somewhere that might be pretty hard to recover.  Mastering my mining routine was extremely fun.  It really made me feel empowered because I realized that I had created a system that most other players couldn't reproduce.

    I also remember farming in that game ... a LOT.  And it was fun!  Believe it or not, I actually ENJOYED trying to make money in that game.  You couldn't just camp names all the time because the ones that dropped the really good loot had a very infrequent spawn pattern.  They might only spawn once or twice a day.  Very rarely would you ever be wandering through that game and be fortunate enough to happen upon Leaping Lizzy.  You had to camp that thing pretty hardcore if you wanted a chance at getting her boots.  Later in the game there were worms in a certain zone that once maybe every 45 minutes or so, a named would spawn, that had a CHANCE at dropping an archers ring that would sell for like 400k gil.  Getting the rarity right on loot and higher end crafting materials is going to take some good design, and the RISK needs to be done right.  I love the tenets of Pantheon and really hope that the devs take a look at FFXI history to see how they did it because it felt very rewarding when you got something good.  It wasn't just sitting at a camp, killing the placeholder every 10 minutes and then farming the name every time it dropped.  There were some camps like that, yes, but that was only one cog in the wheel.  There were tons of ways to strike gold in that game and some options were more consistently rewarding than others, but with that consistent reward came a greater risk.

    The major issue I had with FFXI was with the latency issues.  Maybe it was just a myth but I'm pretty sure the NA community was in agreement that we had a slight delay of maybe .5 seconds compared to the Japanese players.  This put us at a huge disadvantage when it came to tagging mobs because once they're tagged they are locked to that player or group.  It was particularly bad when trying to tag HNM's (Hyper Notorious Monsters) which were basically contested raid bosses, like Behemoth.  Their spawn pattern basically worked out so that they had a 4 hour window that they could spawn, with exact 30 minute intervals.  So if it died at 8 PM on Saturday, the following Saturday, it had a chance to spawn at exactly 8 PM, 8:30 PM, 9 PM, and so on until 12 AM.  There was so much ability spamming going on and hundreds of people in the zone that the latency issue was made even worse.  Other than that, I was fine with the system.  It just needs to be a level playing field where latency doesen't cause a huge disadvantage for players that aren't at a close proximity to the servers.

    Anyway, I'd like to hear how other people feel about how the farming system worked in FFXI.  Did people enjoy it?  Grief because of it?  Personally I found it very enjoyable and that's mostly because of how the risk vs reward was balanced in that game.

     

    • 135 posts
    January 12, 2017 7:33 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    ... Pantheon is based on the open world, go anywhere, do anything mindset. That is what people fight so hard on these forums to protect. Yet some are advocating to throw that to the wind for fear of camp disputes?...

    ... Solution 3 - Make popular items short term

    Uh what? Take items and turn them into short term solutions? How does that help anything? So the higher levels now need to camp said items multiple times which did nothing but exacerbate the entire issue...

    Open world, go anywhere, do anything is a philosophy, not a game design structure. Level 1 characters can't kill level 60 enemies. You can't take over a capital city and have it be yours. All games ever made have restrictions on what you can do. You can reasonably say that you believe preventing high level characters from farming low level loot is a design overreach that infringes too heavily upon high level player freedom, but that is an opinion. Others can just as reasonably state that the status quo breaks the tenets just as much. Low level players' freedom can be infringed upon by high farmers and there is no risk to high level players to balance their reward for farming low level content. Under the status quo the lower level player is also unable to go anywhere and do anything.

    As for short term items, you misunderstood what exactly was being made short term. In his suggested idea the items themselves would not disappear, but the no drop and lore item tags would be removed after the timer ran out. This would effectively produce a timer, meaning high level players could farm their FBSS, but only at a rate of 1 per 24 hrs or a week (based on the original suggestion).


    This post was edited by Ainadak at January 12, 2017 7:34 AM PST
    • 65 posts
    January 12, 2017 7:35 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    Solution 3 - Make popular items short term
    Uh what? Take items and turn them into short term solutions? How does that help anything? So the higher levels now need to camp said items multiple times which did nothing but exacerbate the entire issue.

     

    Enitzu, I think you misunderstood what I suggested.  I didn't mean that the item itself would only last a short time.  Perhaps I needed a little more detail in my description. 

    My idea is if you loot a particular item, it would be NO DROP and LORE for a certain period of time in your inventory.  That time would be adjustable and up to the programmers.  That would allow a higher level toon to loot one for an alt, but then they'd have to wait a time before they could get another one.

    Perhpas it could even be coded that it could be LORE ON ACCOUNT.  That would keep people from switching toons to keep the farming going.  But again, I am not a game software programmer, so I'm not sure how feasible that is.

    **EDIT** HAHA, thanks, Ainadak.  I see you edited your post to reflect exactly what I was simultaneously posting.  Thanks.


    This post was edited by corpserunner at January 12, 2017 7:36 AM PST
    • 32 posts
    January 12, 2017 8:01 AM PST
    I remember camping items such as FBSS (flowing black silk sash) and the fungi tunic back in the day for my monk. Those was such great memories. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't those itmes have "lore" attached to the drop meaning you could only have one? I know it's been 10 plus years since those camps but as soon as I got the time, I was done there. No need to stay and camp that spot. So If they implement lore items in this game, I don't see how farmers would just stay in that same spot. Ideas??
    • 1284 posts
    January 12, 2017 9:04 AM PST

    shasta said: I remember camping items such as FBSS (flowing black silk sash) and the fungi tunic back in the day for my monk. Those was such great memories. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't those itmes have "lore" attached to the drop meaning you could only have one? I know it's been 10 plus years since those camps but as soon as I got the time, I was done there. No need to stay and camp that spot. So If they implement lore items in this game, I don't see how farmers would just stay in that same spot. Ideas??

    Considering the items in question would pretty much sell instantly at the right price, it'd be pretty effortless to return to farming it in short order.

    If the respawn is 22ish minutes like it is in EQ, you could probably even land a sale before the next ph is due to spawn.

    Lore definitely complicates things, but there are ways around it. Another way to get around is, say I'm 6 boxing a camp, I can just load up all 6 of my boxes with the items.