Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:I just see this system being AGAIN..a wonderful place for bots and gold/plat farmers. Something I detest in other games. See a bot report it. If you're too high level for an area, move on to something that challenges you...leave newbie content for newbies. If you're supplying your alts..then obviously you are high enough to buy for them. I watcheds bots overwhelm a server in Lineage II, you couldn't do quests, they criss-crossed the landscape every two minutes. You could pvp them but each bot group came with two "guardian types" if you killed something..the loot would drop on the ground, and they would run over and scoop it before you got there. I eventually left the game, NCSoft wasn't doing anything about it. Did nothing about the bot reports the same bots were there week after week.
Higher levels shouldn't be camping newbie content..period.
Unfortunately, this is typical governmental thinking. You don't solve a bot problem by eliminating content for all the non-bots.
not talking about eliminating content for non-bots...I'm talking about level appropriate areas...high levels shouldn't be able to hog content in lower areas, this is what I have seen in many games. Hog content in newbie areas...and what's left for newbies? Newbies are important new blood that keeps the game going. And if we ignore that...the newbies give up..tell their friends the game sucks..and its all downhill from there.
The sky is not falling. You guys keep coming and stating that the community will be so terrible that we have to make systems to keep everyone under control and make sure they play the game you want them to play.
It's an open-world game. They build the world, we play in it.
Let the community decide what is acceptable and what is not. Stop begging the game gods to force everyone to be what you want them to be.
Have some faith in the community. You just may be surprised and what people can accomplish without controlling them first.
Unless, the community is a bunch of NPCs. I plan on crowd controlling their butts all day long. They will do as I force them to do.
This issue should never be entirely prevented, but I'm all for things like making mobs flee from players at higher health or even full health in an effort to enlist help from other mobs, and return to the player. This won't stop a level 50 player from killing level 10 mobs, but it might make it considerably more challenging for one to solo in a 30s dungeon. At which point they have to reevaluate the return for the risk. That would at least preserve some level of risk to match the reward.
Dullahan said:This issue should never be entirely prevented, but I'm all for things like making mobs flee from players at higher health or even full health in an effort to enlist help from other mobs, and return to the player. This won't stop a level 50 player from killing level 10 mobs, but it might make it considerably more challenging for one to solo in a 30s dungeon. At which point they have to reevaluate the return for the risk. That would at least preserve some level of risk to match the reward.
I would have no problem with this. Mobs going to get help would be good. Doesn't arbitrarily force the situation and still allows the player a way to get what he wants.
However, other than crafting or quest items, I doubt this will be a problem. Level 50s are not apt to control level 10 areas for long. Its more probable that a level 15 or 20 will be doing it.
I shutter at P99 talk here. They took a geat world and somehow made it not enjoyable. Though this has a lot to do with the community. It also has many examples of faulty nostalgic concepts that should not only never exist here, but given the hopeful success of this game would probably fail given the opportunity to replicate those concepts given the sheer number of players we all hope for. Sorry, this doesn't really have anything to do with topics in this thread, I just despise that cesspool and everything it stands for and examples being used from it.
CanadinaXegony said:I just see this system being AGAIN..a wonderful place for bots and gold/plat farmers. Something I detest in other games. See a bot report it. If you're too high level for an area, move on to something that challenges you...leave newbie content for newbies. If you're supplying your alts..then obviously you are high enough to buy for them. I watcheds bots overwhelm a server in Lineage II, you couldn't do quests, they criss-crossed the landscape every two minutes. You could pvp them but each bot group came with two "guardian types" if you killed something..the loot would drop on the ground, and they would run over and scoop it before you got there. I eventually left the game, NCSoft wasn't doing anything about it. Did nothing about the bot reports the same bots were there week after week.
Higher levels shouldn't be camping newbie content..period.
Have to agree with this. I'm not sure how a community handles bot farmers other than by leaving. When bots overrun a game or prevent reasonable advancement or access to content, people leave.
Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to use P1999 or TLPs to judge these situations. AFK camping on TLP where people go to sleep and their pet farms loot for them all night? Yeah, that's bad. But if you put the time in to split the spawns however you want them and keep track of the spawn time so that you know when you need to kill things, I think that's a little different. You assume the risks inherent in not being at your keyboard. I also don't think your higher level should prevent you from killing or camping for loot. Yes, I hope they do make lower level items that are still valuable to higher level players. No, I definitely do not want every piece of gear to be no-drop, or to have it bind to you when you equip it. That makes loot feel so much less tangible to me. I think you can either hold the camp, or you can't. I don't think the game needs to be designed so that unless you are in a six-person group between this level and that level, you can't get any loot. If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of the long, boring, solo camp. Those camps are some of my favorite memories in EverQuest. Besides, in a lot of these situations, the high level 'offenders' are willing to help the lower level players out with buffs, or heals, or pulling for them, or whatever. Other times, they are willing to give them camp up to those who are lower level. That's the beauty of having a social game instead of a role-playing game that just happens to be online. You have good people, you have bad people, and you have people that fall in between. As long as they make this a game where your reputation matters, this stuff will work itself out for the most part.
Morr said:CanadinaXegony said:I just see this system being AGAIN..a wonderful place for bots and gold/plat farmers. Something I detest in other games. See a bot report it. If you're too high level for an area, move on to something that challenges you...leave newbie content for newbies. If you're supplying your alts..then obviously you are high enough to buy for them. I watcheds bots overwhelm a server in Lineage II, you couldn't do quests, they criss-crossed the landscape every two minutes. You could pvp them but each bot group came with two "guardian types" if you killed something..the loot would drop on the ground, and they would run over and scoop it before you got there. I eventually left the game, NCSoft wasn't doing anything about it. Did nothing about the bot reports the same bots were there week after week.
Higher levels shouldn't be camping newbie content..period.
Have to agree with this. I'm not sure how a community handles bot farmers other than by leaving. When bots overrun a game or prevent reasonable advancement or access to content, people leave.
The community handles bots with the help of the devs...in a Sub based game with a slow leveling process getting your BOT banned is a pretty serious punishment. Now if its a Player just being a douche then ban together and outcast them.
Beefcake said:The sky is not falling. You guys keep coming and stating that the community will be so terrible that we have to make systems to keep everyone under control and make sure they play the game you want them to play.
It's an open-world game. They build the world, we play in it.
Let the community decide what is acceptable and what is not. Stop begging the game gods to force everyone to be what you want them to be.
Have some faith in the community. You just may be surprised and what people can accomplish without controlling them first.
Unless, the community is a bunch of NPCs. I plan on crowd controlling their butts all day long. They will do as I force them to do.
I don't beg. :P I just want to see some recognition here of what goes on. I played on a server where a certain guild hogged content (epic weapons) for close on to a year. (yes there is a thread on this) I don't know how people are these days. If there is an advantage they'll take it...human nature. I do however like the idea of an outclassed mob (level wise) running or yelling for help..and perhaps a train comes back at the high level player. Used to see this in SkyFire, someone would forget to kill one of the mobs..it would run off and bring back all its friends from the rest of the zone.
We don't need a solution to something that is not a problem (yet). As others have mentioned above, something organic and 'real' such as mobs running away, or running away to get assistance if they're not killed in a certain amount of time, or even named mobs becoming enraged and hitting a little harder and becoming hardier would be a good start. If a problem does eventuate, then devs can tweak this system.
No locking people out of loot drops though. In a game with an economy based on trade and crafting, some lower level mobs will be targeted for legitimate reasons.
On TLE EQ2 server, at max level, I actually spent a lot of time harvesting mats in low level areas for sale. The high level mats were over harvested and cheap as hell on the broker. Very few people ever harvested low and medium mats, but all crafters needed them to level. I made a pretty penny harvesting and selling those mats.
I was not denying anyone access to those mats, I provided a needed service.
No different for people hunting low level mobs to loot stuff for sale.
People want this stuff, and they are usually too lazy to get them on their own.
The devs have the ability to pump up the spawn rate in any given area. They often do this at expansions and releases, especially in newbie areas. They can also lower them.
That would be a simple solution that would not harm anyone.
Absolutely, Beefcake. I've spent many an hour in almost deserted areas farming mats that others consider 'beneath them' or simply boring to do. I'll happily go somewhere else and do something different if a newbie arrives though - especially if they strike up a conversation with me - otherwise I stick around and get richer.
Several times, I was a newbie in an area that higher levels were slaughtering in. They would be looking for something specific. They didn't need most of what was looted. Many times, they would see me killing, open up a trade window, and give me some cool stuff.
The loot was nothing to them, but big upgrades for me. This is how communities get built.
This would not happen if you guys got your way and locked them out.
Beefcake said:Several times, I was a newbie in an area that higher levels were slaughtering in. They would be looking for something specific. They didn't need most of what was looted. Many times, they would see me killing, open up a trade window, and give me some cool stuff.
The loot was nothing to them, but big upgrades for me. This is how communities get built.
This would not happen if you guys got your way and locked them out.
Exactly...or maybe you're running around Upper Guk, slaughtering everything and trying to get some green froglok skins for illusion potions when you run into a level 10 troll newb. You can buff them, give them some extra gear you may have in your bags, give them a quest for green froglok skins, and let them get to it. Maybe that's the start of a friendship. That interaction doesn't happen if you're locked out of the loot table from those frogloks. You wouldn't have been there.
EDIT: Edited for clarity.
When I was level 60 I tried camping for the fungi tunic solo as a Necromancer. I died rpeatedly to greens in the attempt. The spawns were to fast. I again believe part of this is tied to overly powerful equipmebt with attributes attached to them. It makes a large power gap That makes lower content trivial. Mobs almost always posed a theat in EQ if there were enough and you were alone. The equipment didn't really increase your power much in Vanilla. I still believe the point is to keep players moving and not to focus too much on specific loot or areas too heavily. To each their own.
UnknownQuantity said:When I was level 60 I tried camping for the fungi tunic solo as a Necromancer. I died rpeatedly to greens in the attempt. The spawns were to fast. I again believe part of this is tied to overly powerful equipmebt with attributes attached to them. It makes a large power gap That makes lower content trivial. Mobs almost always posed a theat in EQ if there were enough and you were alone. The equipment didn't really increase your power much in Vanilla. I still believe the point is to keep players moving and not to focus too much on specific loot or areas too heavily. To each their own.
Not sure what you are saying there, but I think you were saying that if the players have too powerful gear, the devs have to make the mobs harder, which forces people to move on?
I would rather stay in an area for a while. Get to know it well. The devs put so much effort into designing areas and people are in such a rush to get through it.
When expansions are released, I usually only group with my family for the first week or two. I like to go through new areas and explore, take my time looking at the whole zone, appreciating what the devs put together.
Usually, when you join teams with others, they want to burn through it.
Alternatively, if others need my help, I will rush through it with people. But, since I play more with my wife, I a have another toon that I can play with her and still appreciate everything.
Also, maybe the area was not meant to solo?
Beefcake said:UnknownQuantity said:When I was level 60 I tried camping for the fungi tunic solo as a Necromancer. I died rpeatedly to greens in the attempt. The spawns were to fast. I again believe part of this is tied to overly powerful equipmebt with attributes attached to them. It makes a large power gap That makes lower content trivial. Mobs almost always posed a theat in EQ if there were enough and you were alone. The equipment didn't really increase your power much in Vanilla. I still believe the point is to keep players moving and not to focus too much on specific loot or areas too heavily. To each their own.
Not sure what you are saying there, but I think you were saying that if the players have too powerful gear, the devs have to make the mobs harder, which forces people to move on?
I would rather stay in an area for a while. Get to know it well. The devs put so much effort into designing areas and people are in such a rush to get through it.
When expansions are released, I usually only group with my family for the first week or two. I like to go through new areas and explore, take my time looking at the whole zone, appreciating what the devs put together.
Usually, when you join teams with others, they want to burn through it.
Alternatively, if others need my help, I will rush through it with people. But, since I play more with my wife, I a have another toon that I can play with her and still appreciate everything.
Also, maybe the area was not meant to solo?
What i was tying to say with equipment is that if it's too powerful it will make camping low level areas solo trivial for high level players.
I think an attempt to resolve this was via a Trivial loot code. If the monster was too low, it would not drop the lore item but would have the same rate of skill or trade items. The higher levels- able to to get an item appropriate to their level would then be encouraged to seek out those areas, for the highly itemized loots.
The bummer was, if there was an item- like an epic say- that had lore items at various levels, if you started the quest too late you could not get the item. But I think that was just somehting you had to deal with. Sure, there was much better stuff at my level that would have me forget "the want" of a certain item- except when it came to clickies and usually there was a clicky 10 levels out of my range that would do the thing of the small quest at a lower level. For instance: MIranda's dice quest- where you had to loot a lore item from a level 17 Kobold to turn into Miranda to get a ball of yarn- that was a 5 charge snare. Awesome. on TLC however at level 30 it would not drop, the closest thing to it was droppable spiderwebs in velks or back of crystal caverns around 45-55, and then the next, was the rusty oil can- unlimited charges of snare at the end of a 12 mission level 75 I think arc. Honestly, I never really liked missions.
But there is one memory that was encouraging- and this was before the itemization got out of control. We were in undead guk - going a bit deeper and a grouip of higher levels went past us, but before they went on, they each gave us shissar fangs with the admonishment "make sure you don't throw it!" For us, it was a boost ot the range slot we would not have been able to get a hold of. Later on, when we went to the shissar place, they dropped like candy, and I threw them- lol. But saved a bunch so I cluld give them away to lower levels, with the same admonishment.
Edited *forgive my typo's!*
CanadinaXegony said:I just see this system being AGAIN..a wonderful place for bots and gold/plat farmers. Something I detest in other games. See a bot report it. If you're too high level for an area, move on to something that challenges you...leave newbie content for newbies. If you're supplying your alts..then obviously you are high enough to buy for them. I watcheds bots overwhelm a server in Lineage II, you couldn't do quests, they criss-crossed the landscape every two minutes. You could pvp them but each bot group came with two "guardian types" if you killed something..the loot would drop on the ground, and they would run over and scoop it before you got there. I eventually left the game, NCSoft wasn't doing anything about it. Did nothing about the bot reports the same bots were there week after week.
Higher levels shouldn't be camping newbie content..period.
Aion was another really great game that was over run with bots and you are correct Canadina you couldn't do quest and they criss crossed the zone like mad, even if you had a mob pulled they would run in and take it from you, was ridiculously crazy how many bots nc soft allowed to over run their games.
This is a very good topic.
I am torn tbh, and see arguments for both sides here. There is almost nothing worse than a max level player camping an area/item that is say 40 levels lower, just to make easy gold in game, while the people that want to experience this content get essentialy locked out and end up having to buy the item and never "truly" get to experience the content
I hated this.
I also remember when no-drop came out, and lore.
I hated this too, but lore seemed to make more sense except that lore meant people were now making lore bank characters and filling them up with lore items to sell, but end result? appropriate level people are locked out of their level content due to high level owning it.
I think this will be a tough problem to solve and don't think there is a single, simple answer. I think this will be more about minimizing frustration and maximizing a positive game play experience than finding a single solution that is yes or no based. Maybe lore can work, but lore items could be tied to account, not just character so a player cannot constantly farm by logging in characters camped at a spot to farm it? Maybe also have lore be once per week lootable only? like the ole FBSS... so overcamped by high levels
This is where I feel there could and should be a balance between "let the community handle it" and "GM's do need to set some standards as to what you can and cannot do to negatively affect others gameplay". In the past, "let the community handle it" translated to "the GM said they are not breaking rules and there is nothing we can do but wait until they log, or get killed and the camp is free'd up, so we are locked out of centent unless we sit here and do nothing until this player logs and we can take the camp" which to me = negative gameplay experience but at the same time I feel like it would be wrong to fully lock out old content to max level players... maybe just limit the access to lower content drops time-wise to inhibit farming. I feel like most of us will be here to play the game, but many will be here purely to farm and min/max, fill up and gear up their alts etc
I think the use of this term 'locked out of content' is getting out of hand. When dungeons and camps are not instanced, then you are going to have situations were you want to kill in a particular area and you are unable to do that because someone or some group is already there. When this happens, you find a different camp in that area, or you head to a different area. It really doesn't matter whether it's another group occupying that spot or a solo player who is higher level. You're not locked out. You just don't have the opportunity to instantly do what you want, and so you can wait, or you can choose to do something else. I really can't think of a situation in early EverQuest, even on TLPs, where a prime experience camp was permanently, or even mostly, occupied by a higher level character and I could never fight there.
It really doesn't matter whether it's another group occupying that spot or a solo player who is higher level.
Why? after the majority of the players reach level cap, there will be more farmers than level-up players. The level-up crew might be waiting a long time.
How about this- farmers get an instance to content they have far outleveled, the level-up crew doesn't.