What are people’s thoughts on high level farming in lower level zones? I bright it up because of an experience I’ve had on P99 and thought it warrants some discussion.
Now P99 is a weird microcosm of the MMO world as its had slow world progression, capped quantities of content and a player base that knows the ins and out of every inch of the game but it’s still a stable open world game.
I was in a Lower Guk group a few nights back and like just about every other time I’ve had an XP group there, we moved around the zone to check on camps just to find AFK level 60’s farming the zone. So, the group that could actually get some experience in a camp and maybe snag an upgrade or two was relegated to farming XP in the halls while the higher-level players came back to their computers every 30 minutes to see if they hit their Named Mob this round.
Basically, in an open world environment any camp that can yield droppable items someone wants can become subject to farming. Rarity and usefulness will drive the market price and the law of unintended consequence says that Pantheon (like other games) will create lower level items that will be of high value for whatever reason, or at least high enough value to warrant time spent farming vs other activities. Zones and mobs that hold these items will then become Farm Spots and cease to be viable progression for the people who would most benefit.
I would suggest taking a preemptive approach and make it so that named mobs enrage if someone outside of the level they yield experience to engages them. Have the enrage feature scale the mob to require a max level group to handle it. This way, if someone has a legitimate need for a drop they will be incentives to use the Mentor system and help out a group actually getting experience from the content rather than monopolizing it or if the zone has become less traveled, they will need to rely on their social network to bring a group.
Im not saying that Pantheon will necessarily have this same problem as it has the ability to evolve and grow, but why not plan a solution from the start as appose to seeing if it’s an issue and trying to fix it later, or worse, ignore it?
I like that idea, being able to mentor and still participate is a good compromise. It could get complicated on dungeons that had say, level 17 content near the entrance and level 22 content at the bottom -- I am sure there is a way to handle it but in general I completely agree that having a bunch of max level characters solo camping all the named spawns in a persistent lower level dungeon is a bummer.
As you say, P99 is very unique and therefore any problems with it should NOT automatically become concerns for Pantheon. The two are not even close to synonymous. Brad has experienced enough of these types of social scenarios to be able to have some ideas to help. For example, in the last stream he stated that if a mob is being obviously overwhelmed and rushed, it may flee or call in reinforcements. And that's just a basic example. I'm not really worried about it.
I gotta say, I am a person who loves to go around looking for rare spawns to get gear for my alts, i also like to check loot tables when the group drops a mob. it feels like christmas when i open the window and the thing i want is right there. besides that even if i couldnt farm with my overleveled characters what about making a necromancer and farming with that at appropriate level? your issue is with one player holding down a mob that you would like to kill with your group, but i have to tell you from a altaholics perspective i will find a way to solo farm those mobs with things i want on em. now that said if i should goto an area where there is a group already camped i will go elsewhere.
I honestly wish this wasn't an issue. This is more to do with how people play the game than it is to do with game mechanics. If people are only concerned about finding and getting the best loot this will always be an issue in non instanced games. People should be playing the game to go on an adventure and explore with friends. If something good drops along the way then that's great. From what I saw in one of the Pantheon videos the perception system will encourage keeping on the move instead of camping. For instance there was an area with a locked door and you couldn't get the key without having used the perception system initially. I think Everquest was initially designed with the idea that players would continually be on the move, but instead we ended up camping safe areas for quick leveling or one dungeon spot for loot. This is the type of activity that feeds farmers. They will farm night and day to sell the items we covet so much. I like buying, selling, and competing with others in a regional marketplace, but I think sometimes it just gets out of hand.
Tatertoad said:A more fitting question is "why should level appropriate characters be denied level appropriate content?".
You're not being denied content any more than another group of similarly leveled players in the zone is also "denying" you content. It's not a valid complaint.
Bazgrim said:Sevens said:Im 100% against any and all dev designed systems to "solve" a problem unless its a mechanics issue. Something like this should be handled by the community
Here we go again lol
Meaning?
Lets just look to the devs to solve all our problems...
You do that and you end up with all the current slew of Craptastic MMOs.
Can you not just make it so if you outlevel a mob by a certain amount, it simply won't drop loot? Won't stop high levels from griefing lowbies by killing nameds just 'cause, but at least they won't be rewarded for it. And if they really want that loot so bad, they can mentor a low level character, or create an alt.
Or you can just say screw new players. I really have no preference either way.
itvar said:Can you not just make it so if you outlevel a mob by a certain amount, it simply won't drop loot? Won't stop high levels from griefing lowbies by killing nameds just 'cause, but at least they won't be rewarded for it. And if they really want that loot so bad, they can mentor a low level character, or create an alt.
Or you can just say screw new players. I really have no preference either way.
They did this on the Firiona Vie RP server in EQ...it was called Trivial Loot Code and I think just about everyone hated it
I really dont see a problem. Kinda sounds like you feel entitled to the camp because its around your lvl. If i spent time in a dungeon and out leveled it but never got that one breastplate i wanted, you better believe ill continue to try for it regardless if the mobs are grey or not.
You may say Laiv's arguement is invalid but he has a point. Let the game be. Don't like how someone is acting? it wont take long for that to work itself out when there are no server xfers or name changes.
Or how about this, lvl 60 player is killing a single mob so set up camp close and get buffed and plow through some experience. Why does every camp have to have a named spawn? Or let him join and mentor but the first time that item drops he wants its his. Everyone knows someone who mentors is going to be overpowered no matter how they try and balance it, EQ2 anyone?
The point is, everyone makes fun of millenial's because everything has to be "fair" and no ones feelings get hurt and you guys sound just as bad as they do(im sure some of you actually are millenials).
Delvesh said:What are people’s thoughts on high level farming in lower level zones? I bright it up because of an experience I’ve had on P99 and thought it warrants some discussion.
Now P99 is a weird microcosm of the MMO world as its had slow world progression, capped quantities of content and a player base that knows the ins and out of every inch of the game but it’s still a stable open world game.
I was in a Lower Guk group a few nights back and like just about every other time I’ve had an XP group there, we moved around the zone to check on camps just to find AFK level 60’s farming the zone. So, the group that could actually get some experience in a camp and maybe snag an upgrade or two was relegated to farming XP in the halls while the higher-level players came back to their computers every 30 minutes to see if they hit their Named Mob this round.
Basically, in an open world environment any camp that can yield droppable items someone wants can become subject to farming. Rarity and usefulness will drive the market price and the law of unintended consequence says that Pantheon (like other games) will create lower level items that will be of high value for whatever reason, or at least high enough value to warrant time spent farming vs other activities. Zones and mobs that hold these items will then become Farm Spots and cease to be viable progression for the people who would most benefit.
I would suggest taking a preemptive approach and make it so that named mobs enrage if someone outside of the level they yield experience to engages them. Have the enrage feature scale the mob to require a max level group to handle it. This way, if someone has a legitimate need for a drop they will be incentives to use the Mentor system and help out a group actually getting experience from the content rather than monopolizing it or if the zone has become less traveled, they will need to rely on their social network to bring a group.
Im not saying that Pantheon will necessarily have this same problem as it has the ability to evolve and grow, but why not plan a solution from the start as appose to seeing if it’s an issue and trying to fix it later, or worse, ignore it?
If you want the content, get to it first. Low level..high level. It makes no difference. First come, first serve. Even if YOU were at the camp you'd technically be denying someone else that content while you were there. Get over it and go find someplace else to get your XP.
Banks should be regional.
Auction house should be regional.
Loot timers on NPC's of significance.
If you kill any Greyed out named more than 1 time (2 times) in 24 hours you should be locked out of loot for that named for 10 days.
Important raid bosses should drop random loot for everybody in the raid personally. All high level Loot from Important raid bosses should only be tradable between each other in the raid party.
Other than trading with a raid member, High level raid loot could only be taken to a salvage professional (NPC) to be broken down into high level crafting components that can be sold to a crafter by a raider. This money sinks high level crafting back to high level raiding and helps the end game economy. Every raid area/dungeon whether a level 10 raid or a level 50 raid will be included in this system.
Other than a few exeptions like important raid bosses (whatever the dungeon level) and Epics the very best equipment will come from crafters.
Farming would be less desirable; risk takers (raiders and pro groups) and hard workers (crafters) would instead reap more benefits.
Just my hung over opinion
Happy New Year to all :)
The same people who farm in P99, EQ and other similar games will be coming to play this game. For better or worse that is a portion (if not substantial portion) of the target market. There is a far higher probability of converting those folks over to this platform than there is getting someone out of WoW or other such game. Fresh blood would be great for this community of gamers but it’s a harder slog to capture them than getting the likeminded folks already in the “harder core” market.
Anyhow. It’s a dialog worth having because true OPEN WORLD drives far more opportunities for the few to destroy the content for the many.
Im against trivial loot code. This wouldnt be an issue if loot was mostly not tradable or able to be sold, but the design will be opposite so thats out. Im not like some though that automatically think this game will turn into a modern MMO with ANY amount of dev created solutions to problems. But I also wouldnt want to straight out prevent high level players from camping low level targets. Maybe like someone else above said and we go with some kind of lockout that kicks in at some point. Community policing is nice and everything, but at a certain point with a percent damage being the indicator of who gets loot rights, Im pretty sure higher level players will lean towards might makes right. Of course a first tag claiming system would fix this too, but oh well. So I would like to see something in place, but would leave specifics to VR.
I think the same loot should drop on the same mobs if you are a group of level 10s killing it, a single 50, a single 50 who kills it 5x in an hour, etc etc. No altering the code or anything. It is just part of the game. The stuff eventually evens out....if a level 50 spends all their time camping a level 30 drop, eventually it would not be worth it, etc.
I just see this system being AGAIN..a wonderful place for bots and gold/plat farmers. Something I detest in other games. See a bot report it. If you're too high level for an area, move on to something that challenges you...leave newbie content for newbies. If you're supplying your alts..then obviously you are high enough to buy for them. I watcheds bots overwhelm a server in Lineage II, you couldn't do quests, they criss-crossed the landscape every two minutes. You could pvp them but each bot group came with two "guardian types" if you killed something..the loot would drop on the ground, and they would run over and scoop it before you got there. I eventually left the game, NCSoft wasn't doing anything about it. Did nothing about the bot reports the same bots were there week after week.
Higher levels shouldn't be camping newbie content..period.
Skycaster said:
Banks should be regional.
Auction house should be regional.
Loot timers on NPC's of significance.
If you kill any Greyed out named more than 1 time (2 times) in 24 hours you should be locked out of loot for that named for 10 days.
Important raid bosses should drop random loot for everybody in the raid personally. All high level Loot from Important raid bosses should only be tradable between each other in the raid party.
Other than trading with a raid member, High level raid loot could only be taken to a salvage professional (NPC) to be broken down into high level crafting components that can be sold to a crafter by a raider. This money sinks high level crafting back to high level raiding and helps the end game economy. Every raid area/dungeon whether a level 10 raid or a level 50 raid will be included in this system.
Other than a few exeptions like important raid bosses (whatever the dungeon level) and Epics the very best equipment will come from crafters.
Farming would be less desirable; risk takers (raiders and pro groups) and hard workers (crafters) would instead reap more benefits.
Just my hung over opinion
Happy New Year to all :)
You must have cured your hangover with more booze, because you are simply not thinking straight.
Excet for the banks and auction houses, I agree with those.
CanadinaXegony said:I just see this system being AGAIN..a wonderful place for bots and gold/plat farmers. Something I detest in other games. See a bot report it. If you're too high level for an area, move on to something that challenges you...leave newbie content for newbies. If you're supplying your alts..then obviously you are high enough to buy for them. I watcheds bots overwhelm a server in Lineage II, you couldn't do quests, they criss-crossed the landscape every two minutes. You could pvp them but each bot group came with two "guardian types" if you killed something..the loot would drop on the ground, and they would run over and scoop it before you got there. I eventually left the game, NCSoft wasn't doing anything about it. Did nothing about the bot reports the same bots were there week after week.
Higher levels shouldn't be camping newbie content..period.
Unfortunately, this is typical governmental thinking. You don't solve a bot problem by eliminating content for all the non-bots.
I find this line of discussion fascinating and thank Delvish for bringing it up. It seems disingenous to defend the practice, but I can see the other side of the argument also. I don't disagree that oftentimes good intentions cause unintended consequences with regard to game design, meaning that it might actually be worse / less enjoyable for more people depending on how it was handled.
That said, I believe that there are ways to design challenging content that rewards content level groups, and that the developers will be motivated to do that.