Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord Lineage, Expectations, and Speculation

    • 52 posts
    December 28, 2016 3:16 PM PST

    Purpose of This Thread

    The primary objective of this post is to spur discussion among players who seek to play the dire lord extensively. Even if it isn't your main, this thread is dedicated for those who are passionate about this arch type we grew to love in games such as EverQuest, Vanguard, and a myriad of other titles. Subsequent posts in this thread are encouraged to further discuss these claims while also contributing individual speculations and wish list items.

    While this post may appear a bit intimidating, it’s really just a formal overview of what many of us already know. It may serve as a reminder for those who browse these forums every few months, or perhaps have never played a similar class but grouped with them.

    Let’s have some fun discussing what we would like to see, but be analytical as well! It’s fun to dream, but it’s pointless if we’re completely off-base with what Visionary Realms has teased us with.

     

    Dire? Lord?

    Dire. dī(ə)r/. Adjective.

    (of a situation or event) Extremely serious or urgent. “dire consequences”

    (of a warning or threat) Presaging disaster “dire warnings of fuel shortages”

    Lord. lôrd/. Noun.

    Someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler. “lord of the sea”

    By referring to quotes by Visionary Realms employees, previous Kickstarter information (SEE BELOW FOR THIS), and exploring the dire lord’s pedigree, this post will explore what has been discussed, assumptions that can be made from those statements, as well as formulating evidence-driven speculation. In essence, we’re using the scientific method by refining our hypotheses via discussion based on our observations.

     

    Notes and Quotes to Keep In Mind

    With Pantheon still in pre-alpha development, we don't have a tremendous amount of information. Before this post goes any further, I want to bring up quotes published in the last year regarding class identity, the dire lord, and even a bit regarding combat.

    Note #1: I will include information about Visionary Realm’s “Dark Knight” post from their Kickstarter. Please note this information is three years old and may be outdated. As I will say a couple times: Design documents change. Games change. Companies change.

    Note #2: Sometimes I will implicitly state Visionary Realms has claimed, stated, or express X. I am citing sources as much as I can, but sometimes I am writing from general observations of reading Visionary Realms employees posts, streams, podcasts, and the like. This post is by no means perfect, and will have a few opinions thrown in, but will try to stay objective.

     

    UPDATE (DECEMBER 30th, 2016): I only recently discovered this recently. When browsing through Xaice's very awesome Dire Lord threads, I saw Kilsin posted this:

    "I would treat everything on Kickstarter as incorrect just to be safe." - Kilsin

    I am currently not going to-write entire segments regarding the Kickstarter, but please keep that on mind moving forward. Thank you. That said, here are some quotes:

    “A requirement that classes have identities. No single player should be able to do everything on their own.”

    “A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.”

    Source: Pantheon game tenets. http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/

    "We haven't quite released that information yet on a lot of our classes, we have only revealed a handful but once we get to the Dire Lord (a class I want to play too) I will be able to help you out with more information.

    It has, however, been described to me as the SK from EQ and the DK from VG having a baby...if that means anything to you, but we will, of course, have our own twist on the class and will be taking feedback during testing to help balance all of the classes, so nothing is final ;)"

    Source: Kilsin. https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/5julkv/how_will_classes_that_were_previously_hybrids_in/dbjhdy/

    "My favorite classes are the hybrids, crusaders and dire lords."
    Source: Aradune. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/d6lvjhq/

    "There are four core roles -- DPS, tanking, healing and CC. It is important that each of the classes is good at one of these roles, and also as good as another class which shares a role. The difference will be that one class will express that role through abilities and spells very differently than the other."

    Source: Aradune. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/d6lrqru/

    "Pantheon is a traditional level based system with skills and abilities that are unlocked and practiced as you level up. Some customization and specialization will be present, but never to the point where a warrior ceases to be a warrior."

    Source: Aradune. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/d6ls8af/

    “I want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive, and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is, if not impossible, extremely difficult and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.”

    Source: Aradune. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/d6lph90/

     As mentioned, we also have information from the original Kickstarter site. Please note this was published nearly three years ago, in early 2014. Design documents and goals change, but it is useful information regardless. Please see quote from earlier. It is safe to assume the Kickstarter information is incorrect. The original post can be found here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/728920

    Role: Tank

    Style: Strong on the front lines, wielder of most weapon types though most proficient in two-handed swords. Able to use the shadows and the dead to their advantage.

    Specializations:

      • Void Master: Taking control of the shadows, molding them to do their bidding. Summon shadow sentinels and engulf enemies in darkness.
      • Dread Lord: Instill fear and agony through use of necromancy. Take command of the dead, syphon life and poison their enemies.

    The Dark Knight Lore

    Touched by the darkness that once consumed the universe, the Dark Knight is a formidable champion of evil whose battle prowess and unholy might instills fear within the bravest of warriors. Having trained in the dark arts recorded within the forbidden martial Tome of Myraxys, these knights have exchanged their souls for the powers of the void to be used in their evil endeavors within the world of Terminus.

    What is a Dark Knight?

    The Dark Knight is a leader highly skilled in combat who takes charge on the front line. They’re seen wearing dark plate armor and thrive in the use of two-handed great swords, long swords, shields, and axes. Though there have been cases where they have used other types of weaponry such as maces, spears or lances. The Dark Knights have the ability to blend in the shadows, manipulate them to attack their foes or even summon sentries of shadow to protect and fight for them.

    Dark Knights have also been known to practice in the arts of necromancy. They use these dark magics to instill fear, inflict pain and raise the dead to serve them. They are notorious for siphoning energies and life forces from their enemies causing great weaknesses while strengthening themselves, though there have been cases where they apply disease to their victims.

    Dark Knights adhere to the law of their dark gods. They are not chaotic but keep discord in check. Though the Dark Knight code stays in line with delivering unholy judgment regardless of the hero essence they are bound with. It is wise to avoid the touch of the Dark Knights hand as it may lead to a hateful curse, agonizing pain or death. Dark Knights are formidable as they continue to expand fear and darkness across Terminus in the name of their lords.

     

    The Current Dire Lord Model

    With Aradune stating he enjoys the dire lord, and Kilsin stating the union of classes, the 2014 Kickstarter seems a logical base for where Visionary Realms would begin their development of the Dire Lord. AGAIN: Assume that now in 2017 that the 2014 Kickstarter class details are incorrect.

    "Combat leader who tanks, wears plate, variety of weapons, manipulate shadows, practice necromantic art such as fear, pain, raising the dead, and siphoning from their foes. All in the name of their lords."

    Pantheon is reaching out to what Brad has called “an orphaned community” of first-generation MMO players. "Familiar Yet Fresh" is a phrase to grow used to. What twists will Pantheon provide that will make the dire lord its own class and not simply the shadow knight or dread knight 2.0? That’s what we’re here to discuss.

     

    Class Description and Pillars

    "Legends speak of Dire Lords capable of mastering the crippling power of fear, with some able to manipulate the ‘essence’ of living things--even their very blood."

    This is, for all intents and purposes, the sole official description of the class. Yes, there is information from the Kickstarter but I firmly believe it is wise to acknowledge it may be outdated. For those that have participated in long beta tests such as those found in EverQuest and Vanguard, some of us saw classes flip upside down. Some classes had 90% of their abilities removed and replaced between phases so they had a clearer identity in the whole of the game.

    [opinion] While the Kickstarter mentions two specializations, I think it would be of Visionary Realm’s best interest to further separate the specializations as there seems to be a bit of overlap. Yes, there needs to be an identity so “X class feels like X class at the end of the day”, but I would argue you could switch the words “shadows” and “dead” and get the same exact picture. Exact pictures aren’t the goal, similar pictures are. At least that is how I understand VR’s mission statement. [/opinion]

    That said, let’s talk about some of the core concepts we all are expecting from the dire lord given our previous experiences and what Visionary Realms has released:

     

    Tanking

    While the dire lord is undoubtedly a tank, let’s take a moment to reflect Visionary Realm’s goal of balancing power between the three tanks: dire lord, warrior, and crusader. Each one needs to feel unique and possibly fulfill a niche that will only be used 10% of the time. E.G. While having an “anti-magic” tank is a cool idea, history shows the class as sub-par in other instances. While VR has been firm in making sure not one character can do everything, they don’t want players to feel useless in regards to their primary role.

    What kind of tanking is to be expected? The EverQuest shadow knight wielded a two-hander in many instances (see their epic 1.0 and 2.0), heavy incoming damage required a shield. Vanguard evolved the dark knight archetype and gave what the community wanted: tank effectively with a two-hander. While many other games could be listed, I want to touch on the big elephant in the room (World of Warcraft) and mention their death knight has successfully tanked through self-healing (drain, essentially) and absorption techniques. I bring this up as I vividly recall discussions in class EverQuest communities saying this couldn’t be done. 

    The Kickstarter describes summoning sentries of shadow to protect and fight for the dire lord. Protect is a suspicious word. Does it illustrate some sort of protective ward ala Vanguard’s ‘Dark Ward’ ability? Or is it talking about a pet being on guard and auto-attacking anything that strikes the dread lord?

     

    Damage

    While the dire lord will not land on the top of a damage parse, many of us view the archetype as the exact opposite of weak. Even without otherworldly or arcane means, the archetype is viewed as powerful and deadly when equipped with a melee weapon. Will we see stances, bonds, or modes that augment these abilities?

    In addition to their melee prowess, tradition associates this archetype with multiple damage over time (DoT) spells. Shadow, necrotic, poison, disease, and even fire and cold, are staples found in the arsenal. The Kickstarter page describes “cases where they apply disease to their victims”, which may be associated with a certain specialization.

    Last but certainly not least is what many associate as THE quintessential ability: harm touch.

    “It is wise to avoid the touch of the Dark Knights hand as it may lead to a hateful curse, agonizing pain or death” - Kickstarter description

    Harm touch and similar spells range in power. In classic EverQuest, shadow knights had to deal with a rather intense 72-minute cooldown. EverQuest 2, harm touch was a 5-minute cooldown. Some incarnations of the dark knight such as World of Warcraft’s death knight has (had, as of the expansion) an execute-like ability called Soul Reaper. It may not be out of realm to expect a large cooldown harm touch in addition to a smaller version with a lesser cooldown. Again, this gives options when it comes to choosing one’s limited spells.

     

    Fear

    “They use these dark magics to instill fear” - Kickstarter description

    Will it be purely a single target spell? Perhaps a haunting area of effect? Will there be a special line just for undead? Or will there be an array of all of the above? Can we augment fear(s) through potential customization options? Will mobs run rampant and bring adds, making the fear pointless? Or will the foe cower in place as you line up a devastating blow with a potential accuracy bonus?

    As with this entire post, there's quite a bit of room for imagination here. Regardless, this imagery is exactly what the dire lord name invokes. This brings us to our next and final point:

     

    Drains & Debuffs

    “They are notorious for siphoning energies and life forces from their enemies causing great weaknesses while strengthening themselves” - Kickstarter description

    Lineage shows a strong case for being able to drain opponents. This involves applying a debuff on the opponent (-15 strength) and placing a buff on the dire lord (+15 strength). As the class grows higher and higher in levels, these abilities sometimes have variations to be area of effect capable or include a resistance modifier. In a game like Pantheon where you can only have X abilities prepared, this makes decision making critical.

     

    History Lesson

    In the case of EverQuest, the shadow knight (in classic) brought the same exact spells as necromancers. This may sound pointless, but with limited spell gems, the SKs would prep drains so the necromancer could focus on other utility and damage. In Vanguard, the dread knight’s Dreadful Countenance was an ability every group wanted and every raid needed. Growing to five stacks, it provided unique debuffs that crippled enemies by lowering their damage, resistances, and increased damage inflicted upon them.

    Where will Visionary Realms stand on all of this? The short description illustrates control of life essence, and game tenants and quotes allude to the fact that multiple classes can provide similar utility. Questions may be asked like, does another class (e.g. shaman) bring a similar debuff that will open up a spell gem? Will the higher-resource AE version be required? If the dire lord isn’t tanking do they need to load up on more debuffs? Is X drain a great threat tool that will be needed or will I be focused primarily on damage since we have a higher level warrior tanking? These are things Visionary Realms has illustrated they want players, groups, and raids to think about

     

    Tap, Siphon, Drain!

    Aside from draining raw attributes like strength or statistics like armor class, perhaps the most quintessential and anticipated ability is the life tap. In EverQuest (classic era), we saw this as a necromancer spell that included a cast time. In future games like Vanguard, we had multiple life taps through spells (cull), melee strikes (harrow), and even AE tap spells (black wind, scythe of doom). Other games had similar mechanics, but one that is brought up frequently is World of Warcraft's death knight with its death strike. While the ability didn't have a cooldown, the resource mechanics made its use frequently and it provided health and absorption as the class did not have a block chance like we saw in EverQuest and Vanguard. 

     

    Things to Keep in Mind

    There may be drains that heal group members, restore mana, or even grant your defensive target the buff instead (or in addition) to you. Is this a class that is better suited against casting opponents? Is there a specialization that allows better area of effect damage and threat, or some sort of customization that grants a better fear for crowd control? These are ideas to entertain as we continue our discussion. How will the dire lord be unique? How will the dire lord be desirable? What are weaknesses the class encounters? What will make players love their dire lord?

     

    Pantheon's Four Core Roles and the Dire Lord  

    Unlike the holy trinity many of us are familiar with, Pantheon has four defined roles (see quotes): damage, tanking, healing, and crowd control. While CC hasn't been as important in more recent MMOs, Visionary Realms is making it clear to their player base it will be a factor, enough so that it's a defined role. Where does the dire lord fit into all of this? Doesn’t it have a little bit of everything?

    Before moving ahead, one thing I would like to re-cap on one of Pantheon's tenets:

    "A requirement that classes have identities. No single player should be able to do everything on their own." Source: http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/ 

     

    The primary role of the dire lord is tanking, and is one of the (assumptive) three tanks in the game. How will it fare when it comes to the other three roles? When it comes to damage as a tank, what's fair? Should there be a stance that allows more damage when not tanking, or when soloing? How much should life taps heal? How powerful will fear or similar abilities be? Can you snare and kite mobs indefinitely? Will we have to worry about diminishing returns? What other classes will overlap with the dire lord’s debuffs? These are questions we need to ask ourselves. Where does the dire lord fit in all of this?

     

    From Assumptions to Speculations

    This is where the initial post ends and we begin to transition from "safe assumptions" to "speculation" and "wish list".

    I do want to reiterate that Visionary Realms has previously published a decent amount of information regarding this class, but it was three years ago. Design documents change. Obviously the name changed, which may have been aesthetic or to better reflect where they are going to take the class. Going off prior information, we have two specializations: void master and dread lord.

    [opinion] While I’ve tried to keep this post objective, I will inject my opinion that I believe VR has changed their plans. That’s what my gut says. The two specializations on the Kickstarter do illustrate two different entities, but they (personally) feel too similar. If VR wants to follow through with each class having a unique identity, but also having a bit of customization, they need to crank it up a little. [/opinion]

     

    Thanks!

    Thank you for taking the time to read this behemoth of a post. Again, a lot of this may not be news for some, but hopefully it was enjoyable. I didn’t intend for this to be so lengthy, but there was a bit of ground to cover regarding sources, what’s safe to assume and what isn’t, etc.

    Let's go ahead and (re)demonstrate our interest in this fantastic class by making some sound speculation and reminecing about what we loved and what we definitely did not enjoy when it came to prior incarnations of this archetype. As Pantheon is a niche game, I think it's wise to demonstrate what that niche is when it comes to the dire lord.

    Perhaps if there's enough interest it could be showcased by VR earlier than intended. Eh, eh? ;)


    This post was edited by Faelor at January 3, 2017 6:57 AM PST
    • 52 posts
    December 28, 2016 3:25 PM PST

    Hey there. To kick-start speculation, I’ve whipped up a post that goes over some traditional abilities many of us are used to, along with some idea generation for our specializations could play a role into the dire lord class. This post is a fun-filled “wish list” of what I see the dire lord becoming given prior class abilities, what developers have said, and what some of us veterans would enjoy seeing. I’d love to hear what you have to say, in addition to knowing what you want to see! Including what you don’t want to see. What will make the dire lord unique among tanks? What are some abilities you do NOT want to see? Let’s piggyback off what Visionary Realms has given us and have a construction conversation!

     

    Modified Description

    Legends speak of the crippling power Dire Lords command. Capable of invoking debilitating fear and draining the essence from foes, all whilst donning heavy armor and wielding deadly weapons, few live to spread knowledge about these unholy harbingers. Reports are conflicting as some supposedly bind shadows to do their bidding, others cast necromancy and spread disease, while others seem to communicate with eldritch beings and inflict a gaze that drives their opponents to madness. Whatever the case, the lords of dread are ushering an unyielding and terrible darkness across Terminus.

     

    Specializations (AKA Pacts)

    These concepts are build on the idea that the Dire Lords are always adhering to some sort of powerful force that’s beyond them. Some dire lords may see this as a means to an end, while others now realize they are forever servants. Regardless, it isn’t common knowledge that the dire lords hold pacts. Historians have picked up on this only as of late, and believe it may lead to a way to stop their encroaching darkness. Additionally, it has been discovered that these supernatural entities sometimes are at war with each other, while at other times they are seemingly allied.

    I would like to mention I have a few different ideas swirling around the ole noggin, but I'm going with these three as I think they offer a wider spectrum of lore. I don't mind a "Shadow Master" like the Kickstarter illustrated, but I just feel there are far better options when it comes to building a certain aspect of the dire lord. We have decades and decades of examples to go off, from paper-n-pencil to new-and-old-school MMOs. Make something tangible, something I understand, but also mysterious. 

     

    Doesn't That Conflict with the "Dark Gods" Aspect?

    I wrote these to give more tangible flavor to the lore provided. The Dark Gods are seemingly ambiguous. And while I am sure there are some big names in the lore that I'm missing or has yet to be introduced, what about the idea of forming a pact with a type of being we, as players, are familiar with? That we can easily associate with? What I'm saying is, what if there is some sort of god-like being that's a vampire, lich, or otherwordly entity like Cthulhu or an unnamed Elder God?

     

    Pact of the Vampire

    Embracing the touch of a vampire, the dire lord is empowered by darkness. Capable of manipulating shadows to engulf their foes, fueled by unholy speed, and expanding their debilitating siphons, the dire lord’s thirst for power is unquenchable.

     

    Pact of the Lich

    Adhering to a powerful and undying necromancer, the dire lord spreads decay wherever he goes. Able to control the dead, wither their foes, and desecrate the very ground, the dire lord has forsaken the living.

     

    Pact of the Eldritch

    Indescribably eldritch entities whisper secrets to the dire lord, gifting them with otherworldly knowledge. Psychic powers manifest within the dire lord as they drive others to madness, fear, and rage. By inflicting pain and manipulating others to cause chaos can the dire lord quiet the whispers.

     

    Abilities and Spells

    Again, just a mock-up of some abilities given this vision of the Dire Lord. Please take everything with a grain of salt. This list isn't exhaustive, just to provide an illustration.

     

    Dread        (level 1) (debuff applied by Dire Lord)

    Target is overwhelmed by feeling of dread. Applied by the Dire Lord. Stacks up to three times initial. Level 15 increases to four, level 25 increases to five. Additional stacks yield a stronger debuff. (Opinion: I firmly believe the Dreadful Countenance many of us experienced in Vanguard was too powerful, this would be something a bit lighter and flavorful)

     

    Dire Strike        (level 1) (melee) (global cooldown)

    Seething dark energies imbue the dire lord's weapon as (s)he strikes the target, dealing immediate weapon damage. Inflicts one stack of Dread.

    Bond of Strength bonus: increased critical strike chance per stack of Dread.

    Level 6 perk: Beginning at three stacks of dread, Dire Strike can be followed up by Wrack.

     

    Bond of Strength     (level 1)

    Increases damage by 15% and parry chance by 5%.

    Ability changes after completing pact quest. Additional benefits granted. Meant to be flavorful but not powerful. For all intents and purposes, this can be described as the offensive / soloing / travel stance. Why bother with 3-4 stances when you only use two?

    Vampire pact perk: Bond of Vampirism: Minor bonus to movement speed and strength. Snares are 25% less effective. Increased climb speed. Less likely to slip on surfaces.

    Lich pact perkBond of Undeath: Lowered threat range and presence from undead creatures. Additional +5% damage and critical chance to undead creatures.

    Eldritch pact perkBond of Madness: Increased perception and mana regeneration. Random whispers providing information about offensive and defensive targets. Can see invisible creatures at very close range.

     

    Siphon Power        (level 1) (spell) (global cooldown)

    Reduces your opponent's strength and dexterity by X, while increasing your strength and dexterity by X for Z minutes.

    Quested perk: Casting Siphon Power on a target already under its effect but at Dread 5 drains further strength and dexterity and grants it to the dire lord. Minor cooldown is applied when used this way. This allows for a more interactive approach with the Dread mechanic that it just being a debuff that grows, making the dire lord (or Dread Knight) essentially a debuff bot.

     

    Torture        (level 2) (spell) (global cooldown) (1.0 second cast)

    Shadowy spirits asmass around the target and inflicts Y necrotic damage over 15 seconds. As dread amasses, the spirits gain advantage and deal further damage.

     

    Sense the Dead        (level 2) (spell) (global cooldown) (2.0 second cast)

    Locate nearest undead creature.

    Level 20 perkProvide minor details about the undead creature. If undead creature is targeted, specific details about it.

    Level 40 perkProvide greater details about the undead creature. If undead creature is targeted, specific details about it.

     

    Shadowstrike (level 4) (melee strike + teleport) (moderate-low cooldown) (short range) (instant) [Dread bonus]

    If the dire lord isn't in melee with the offensive target, the shadows transport them behind the opponent where a lethal blow is dealt. Improved weapon damage with improved accuracy. 

    Conditional perk: Lowered energy cost if night time or in [dark margic] area.

    Dread 3 perk: Usable in melee, deals large necrotic damage in exchange for a longer cooldown.

     

    Ward of Shadows        (level 4) (spell) (60 second cooldown) (instant) [defensive]

    Shadows enwrap you, granting 25% mitigation for the next two attacks over the next 5 seconds. 

    Level 40 quested perk: Increases to 30% mitigation and three attacks.

     

    Wrack        (level 6) (melee) (moderate-low cooldown)

    Deals weapon damage plus X% to the offensive target. Damage is increased is target is under 20% health. Additionally, if the target is at Dread 5, deals increased damage and heals part of the damage. If the target is slain by Wrack, heal significantly increased. (This is a follow-up ability that is vital to giving the dire lord options. Something that many MMOs lack. If you're engaged with the enemy long enough, it deals more damage. If they're near death, deals further damage to hopefully slay foe. Do you need that potential heal immediately? Or do you wait until it could slay the foe? This type of decision making drives away macro-heavy players who rely on 2-3 buttons to do all the work.)

     

    Bond of Dire Hatred     (level 6) (stance) (10 second cooldown)

    Increase armor by X%. Increase threat generation by Y%.

     

    Shadow Guard     (level 8) (block) (24 second cooldown) [defensive]

    Assume a defensive guard and successfully block the next attack over the next 5 seconds. Unable to attack while defense is raised. Successful (passive) blocks decrease cooldown by 2 seconds (up to 12). Only usable with Bond of Dire Hatred.

     

    Lifetap     (level 8) (spell: tap) (moderate cooldown) (1 second cast) [lifetap]

    Drains X life from your offensive target and grants it to your defensive target.

    Level 18 perk: Damage and healing is amplified if either target is below 35% health.

    Level 28 perk: Increased critical strike chance for damage and healing.

     

    Weapon Shield        (level 10) (passive)

    The dire lord’s mastery over two-handed weaponry allows defensive capabilities. Capable of blocking with two-handed weapon while Bond of Dire Hatred is up. Block capabilities (percentages, chance, etc.) increase with level. RARE weapons grant a bonus to block chance and damage, while weapons grant an even larger bonus. (Weapon rarity gives an extra incentive to make sure the dire lord is always seeking out a powerful item. Gives the player additional drive.)

     

    Clinging Shadows        (level 10) (spell: debuff) (4 second cooldown) (1 second cast)

    Shadows wrap around your target, slowing their movement by X% and dealing Y necrotic damage over Z seconds.

    Vampire Pact perk: Siphons part of the movement speed debuff and grants it to the dire lord for the next minute.

     

    Fear        (level 12) (spell) (moderate-low cooldown) (2.0 second cast) [Fear]

    Inflicts fear upon the target. Damage has a chance to break fear.

    Lich pact perk: More effective against undead.

    Eldritch pact perk: Decrease cast time to 0.5 second. Decreased chance to break earlier randomly. If a spell was being cast, deal X psychic damage.

     

    Vengeful Strike        (level 12) (melee reactive) (moderate cooldown) (instant) [lifetap] [Dread bonus]

    Follow-up from successfully blocking or parrying an attack from defensive target. Strikes back dealing massive weapon damage. Damage and accuracy is improved with increased stacks of Dread. Heals 50% of damage dealt.

    Level 22 perk: Further improved accuracy.

    Level 32 perk: Increased critical strike chance.

     

    Shadowstep        (level 14) (spell) (moderate-low cooldown) (instant cast)

    Teleports you behind your offensive target and provides 1 second of invisibility. If no target is selected, randomly teleports the you nearby.

    Exclusive vampire pact perk: Can select teleport location if there's no offensive target. Only available at night or in shadows. Cannot use to greatly traverse vertically.

     

    Dire Scythe        (level 14) (melee ae) (moderate-low cooldown) (0.5 sec cast / wind-up) [Lifetap] [Dread] [Dread Bonus]

    Shadows wrap around the dire lord's weapon, enlarging it into a spectral scythe emitting unholy energies. After a brief 0.5 second wind up, the dire lord strikes enemies in front of him (270' arc) for considerable damage. X% of the damage dealt heals the dire lord. Each stack of Dread on the defensive target grants additional cooldown reduction in addition to bonus necrotic damage per stack. Can only use with two-handed weapon.

    (You'll see I have listed a few AE abilities. This isn't so the dire lord is an "AE machine", but rather this is how they decided to use their limited spell gems. If an encounter has multiples waves, or there are just a lot of mobs to handle that can't all be crowd controlled, these abilities should be prepared. But that's at the cost of not having more single target options, debuffs buffs, etc. For all intents and purposes, this is the meat-and-potatoes AE of this mock-up that keeps the player engaged by rewarding Dread stacking.)

     

    Harm Touch        (level 16) (spell) (high cooldown) (obtain through quest) [Dread bonus]

    Increased accuracy melee attack that deals massive damage. Difficult to resist. Damage increased per stack of Dread.  If target is slain by Harm Touch, reduce cooldown by X. For every non-trivial opponent the dire lord slays, reduce cooldown by Y.

    Vampire pact quest (lvl 30) perk: Drains X% of the damage dealth. Deals additional damage if target is below 30% health. [lifetap]

    Lich quest (lvl 30) pact: Deals disease damage and lower's targets defenses temporarily. Additional damage to undead and lower cooldown against undead.

    Eldritch quest (lvl 30) pact: Deals psychic damage and stuns offensive target for X seconds. If offensive target was casting a spell, increase damage and decrease cooldown.

     

    Crimson Revenge     (level 16) (defensive target rescue) (moderate-high cooldown) [defensive target]

    Rescues your defensive target from an incoming attack, causing the offender to attack you for two attacks (6 second limitation). Applies threat. Same opponent may only be forced-targeted once every 30 seconds. Less effective if not with Bond of Dire Hatred.

    Level 32 perk: Next three single-target attacks heal the rescued target for X% of the damage dealt.

     

    Initial pact (specialization) ability. Granted after finishing questline and making pact with entity.

    Vampiric Touch        (level 18) (spell touch: vampire pact) (1 second cast) (moderate cooldown) (obtain through quest) [lifetap]

    Siphons large amount of health from target. Heals dire lord by X, increases dire lord’s health by X. This amount fades over 90 seconds.

    Level 35 quest perk: Leaves debuff on target that provides Y% chance for allies to proc a heal.

    Level 45 quest perk: Vampiric Touch self-buff grants +X% healing to the dire lord.

     

    Unholy Servant        (level 18) (spell: lich pact) (moderate cooldown) (5 second cast) (obtain through quest)

    Summons a fearsome yet cackling skeleton pet.

    Level 35 quest perk: A deadlier pet that can redirect damage from the dire lord to itself (activated, moderate-high cooldown).

    Level 45 quest perk: Two bone pets. Minor cleave ability.

    *Aesthic perk: Can quest to replace skeleton model with ghost, ghoul, or geist.

     

    Terror        (level 18) (spell: eldritch pact) (moderate-high cooldown) (instant cast) (obtain through quest) [Fear]

    Inflicts psychic damage to target as are feared up to 9 seconds. Terror is difficult to break through damage.

    Level 35 quest perk: Terror's duration is increased to 12 seconds. Dire lord's damage does not break Terror.

    Level 45 quest perk: Terror's duration is increased to 15 seconds. Chance per tick to apply 3-5 second fear on nearby opponents.

     

    Leech Life        (level 20) (buff) (moderate cooldown) (0.5 second cast) [Defensive]

    Infusing their weapon with unholy energies, the dire lord gains improved accuracy and 100% leech (damage = drain) for X seconds. 

    Level 35 perk: Unholy energies further infuse the dire lord. Leech effects have a +Y% critical chance if the dire lord is under Z% health.

    Built-in incentive to use this as timely as possible to maximize the return.

     

    Bond of Strength (and similar bonds): Enemies inflicted by Unholy Torrent suffer from increased critical chance (X%) for the next Y seconds.

    Bond of Dire Hatred: Enemies inflicted by Unholy Torrent have increased hate towards the dire lord, with a chance of missing him/her on their next attack.

     

    Despair        (level 22) (spell: debuff) (low cooldown) (2 second cast) [Drain] [Dread bonus]

    Drains attack rating from the offensive target and grants it to the dire lord. If cast with Despair already on a target that is at Dread 5, next three attacks have an increased critical strike chance. If used in this way, moderate cooldown applied to Despair.

    Vampire pact perk: Drains 15% haste. (This is meant to be a very weak debuff in comparison to someone like the Shaman who specializes in this specific and role-defining debuff. Again, flavorful. Another option is to amplify the attack buff.)

    Again, the theme of options makes itself available. Will the dire lord re-cast Despair during a "burn" phase, or if they aren't sure they're going to win the encounter? Or should the dire lord just keep it on stand-by in case new enemies need to be de-buffed?

     

    Embrace of Decay        (level 24: lich pact) (spell: group buff) (global cooldown) (environment)

    Grants temporary mitigation to toxic environment effects. (idea: slight group utility and flavor)

     

    Pact DoT: similar damage but applies additional effect(s) and damage type that reflects specialization

    Vampiric Curse        (level 26) (spell: dot: vampiric pact) (1 second cast)

    Drains X health periodically from the target over 18 seconds.

     

    Disease Cloud         (level 26) (spell: dot: lich pact) (1 second cast)

    Inflicts target with periodic damage. Deals X diease damage initially, Y disease damage over 18 seconds, and lowers melee accuracy by Z%.

     

    Mental Corruption        (level 26) (spell: dot: eldritch pact) (instant cast)

    Inflicts target with periodic damage. Deals X psychic damage and has Y% chance to interrupt spell casting upon cast. If interrupted, target is locked from the school for 2 seconds.

     

    Wave of Enfeeblement     (level 28) (point blank aoe debuff spell) (moderate cooldown) (2 second cast)

    Unholy aura that drains strength and dexterity from opponents near the dire lord.

     

    Feign Death     (level 30) (quested spell) (moderate cooldown) (1.5 second cast)

    Feigns death. (86% success rate against same-level mobs.)

    Vampire pact perk: When feigned, health regeneration increased.

    Lich pact perk: Large success bonus against undead.

    Eldritch pact perk: When feigned, mana and endurance regeneration increased.

    Level 50 perk: Decrease to 1.0 second cast. Increased success rate.

    Level 50 "legendary" quest perk: Decrease to 0.75 second cast. If the dire lord is under 30% health, X% chance to heal Y (internal cooldown).

     

    Expel Undead        (level 30) (single target bane damage) (low cooldown) (1.5 second cast) [Dread]

    Unholy energy burts from the dire lord and pours into the undead creature, dealing X damage. Minor chance to stun for 0.5 second if the target is at Dread 3, 1.0 second at Dread 4, and 1.5 second at Dread 5.

    Lich pact perk: Deals additional damage at a slightly lower mana cost.

     

    Breath of the Dead       (level 32) (self buff) (global cooldown) (2 second cast)

    Allows your metabolism to function without oxygen, allowing you to survive without air for X minutes. Consumes a Fish Scales to cast.

     

    Blood Pact        (level 32) (allied buff) (moderate cooldown) (1 second cast) [defensive target]

    Forms a blood pact with your ally. For the next X second, Y% of the damage is redirected to you.

    Level 44 perk: If the ally reaches <=20% health with Blood Pact on them, siphons 20% of the dire lord's total health and provides it to the ally. This effect can kill the Dire Lord.

     

    Icy Touch        (level 34) (melee strike) (moderate-high cooldown) (0.5 second cast / wind-up)

    The hooded reaper appears in front of the dire lord to deliver its icy touch. Stuns target for X seconds, or lowered cooldown if target is immune. Deals more damage the lower health the target is. Ground around target becomes covered in ice. Enemies have chance to stumble on ice.


    Doom Scythe        
    (level 36) (point blank aoe spell) (moderate cooldown with two charges) (instant cast) [lifetap] [Dread]

    The dire lord's presence enlarges and assumes the outline of the reaper, striking nearby foes. Deals X damage to opponents within a 240' arc in front of you, healing for X% of the total damage dealt. Applies one stack of Dread. Heals for Y% at Dread 4, and Z% at Dread 5. This ability has two charges. Can be used 4-seconds after initial cast for an additional mana cost, but each individual cast takes M (Moderate) seconds to recharge.

    Black wind in Vanguard was, in many instances, too powerful. This gives similar functionality. Draining enemy's life essence, and rewarding players who are in the thick of combat with additional Dread stacks. The charge mechanic allows the dire lord to use both if absolutely needing to, but suffering an increased mana cost and cooldown. Again, trade-offs that allow players to make decisions using single abilities.

     

    Mass Despair     (level 38) (point blank aoe debuff spell) (moderate cooldown) (2 second cast)

    Unholy aura that drains attack rating from opponents near the dire lord. Re-cast works the same way as single-target despair.

     

    Bobbing Corpse        (level 40) (buff: self) (global cooldown) (5.0 second cast)

    Self only levitate, water breathing, and poison resist.

     

    Illusion: Pact       (level 40) (illusionary buff) (5 second cast)

    Replaces character model (not armor or weapon) with a model, effect, or aura that reflects their fact. No in-game bonus.

     

    Unholy Summons        (level 42) (summon non-controllable pets) (high cooldown) (3 second cast)

    Conjures minions based off the dire lord's pact: vampire fledglings, ghouls, or ethereal terrors. These non-controlled pets attack whatever the dire lord is targetting at cast, and then continue to assist the dire lord.

     

    Unholy Torrent        (level 44) (ae debuff, dread) (moderate cooldown) (1 second cast) [Dread] [Stance differences]

    Unleashing unholy energies, nearby targets are inflicted with dread. One stack of dread is applied, with a chance equal to critical strike rating to apply two.

    Bond of Strength (and similar bonds): Enemies inflicted by Unholy Torrent suffer from increased critical chance (X%) for the next Y seconds.

    Bond of Dire Hatred: Enemies inflicted by Unholy Torrent have increased hate towards the dire lord, with a chance of missing him/her on their next attack.

     

    Raise Ally     (level 50) (spell: lich pact) (high++ cooldown) (2 second cast)

    Raise fallen ally as undead for 30 seconds. Abilities are:

    1) Bone Strike: deals X damage. Critical strikes enable Grave Strike (3).

    2) Explosion: detonates and deals Y damage to area.

    3) Grave Strike: deals X++ damage and inflicts bleed damage over time on the target.

    (this ideal is purely to entertain the idea of a meaningful but flavorful high level spell that stems from a specialization. It may exceed what Visionary Realms sees as fit for a specialization from a tank class. May be better fit as a class ability instead. Again, just an idea like everything else!)

     

    - - - - -

    Again, these are just some ideas I'm throwing out there for fun. What do you think? What do you want to see? Do you have any memoriable stories you'd like to share where a specific ability or two saved the party? Let's discuss!


    This post was edited by Faelor at January 14, 2017 5:54 PM PST
    • 408 posts
    December 29, 2016 12:54 AM PST

    Great posts with lots of thoughts and information - enjoyed reading it, and am looking forward to seeing how the Dire Lord takes form.

    I don't usually play tanks, but I've grouped with ShadowKnights in EQ many a time and loved the identity of that class [always makes me think of Lord Soth from Drangonlance].

    • 1899 posts
    December 29, 2016 8:26 AM PST

    SKs were always my eq/eq2 favoritems. I hope to continue the path here. I like the flavor of dark magic & tanking. 

    Warriors are thematically boring. I have to be good and do the right thing all day in real life. I play games to do all the things I cannot in real life. It keeps me sane and helps prevent me from slaughtering the cheery people around me.

    • 52 posts
    December 29, 2016 8:46 AM PST

    zubi said:

    Great posts with lots of thoughts and information - enjoyed reading it, and am looking forward to seeing how the Dire Lord takes form.

    I don't usually play tanks, but I've grouped with ShadowKnights in EQ many a time and loved the identity of that class [always makes me think of Lord Soth from Drangonlance].

    Appreciate that, Zubi. I'm not too terribly familiar with Dragonlance but I have heard of that comparison before! I actually read up more on him when I began digging into Ravenloft lore since he appeared that. Very, very cool character. Great inspiration for this archetype.

    Beefcake said:

    SKs were always my eq/eq2 favoritems. I hope to continue the path here. I like the flavor of dark magic & tanking. 

    Warriors are thematically boring. I have to be good and do the right thing all day in real life. I play games to do all the things I cannot in real life. It keeps me sane and helps prevent me from slaughtering the cheery people around me.

    Ah ha! Same here, Beefcake. I recall first seeing EverQuest, back at my friend's house. This was when the game had just came out, and I was in middle school. He had a warrior, and I asked what types of abilities he had. His response of, "Uh, bash and kick... and..." definitely helped catapult me into checking out the shadow knight, as it reminded me of playing Diablo's warrior but equipped to the teeth with scrolls to blast through enemies if I couldn't get in melee.

    Thankfully warriors in more recent games have gotten a bit more flavor compared to 1999 EverQuest, but to me, they're not what I'm looking for.

    • 1899 posts
    December 29, 2016 2:22 PM PST

    I hope they can be effective main raid tanks, but I can accept solid off-tanks as long as they are solid group tanks.

    • 65 posts
    December 29, 2016 10:22 PM PST

    A lot of time went into this post and while i dont mind thinking about whats to come although i cant guess as to the abilities this new game will bring. I dont mind waiting providing we get to see more game play soon. 

     

    Beef, i dont think any tank will have an issue with group content. Providing they put time into their class learning the mechanics and gearing himself/herself up to a point. I dont want to see max level tanks running around in banded gear ! And yes i have seen it.

     

    • Moderator
    • 8869 posts
    December 30, 2016 3:14 AM PST

    Nice post Faelor :)

    • 52 posts
    December 30, 2016 6:21 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I hope they can be effective main raid tanks, but I can accept solid off-tanks as long as they are solid group tanks.

    I'm certain they will be capable given Aradune's quote. To be quite honest, like other community members, I don't have as much time as I used to. I can't wait hours or post-pone play if I have to wait for one particular class or person to log in.  Here's the quote again:

    "There are four core roles -- DPS, tanking, healing and CC. It is important that each of the classes is good at one of these roles, and also as good as another class which shares a role. The difference will be that one class will express that role through abilities and spells very differently than the other."

    Dkeesling007 said:

    A lot of time went into this post and while i dont mind thinking about whats to come although i cant guess as to the abilities this new game will bring. I dont mind waiting providing we get to see more game play soon. 

     

    Beef, i dont think any tank will have an issue with group content. Providing they put time into their class learning the mechanics and gearing himself/herself up to a point. I dont want to see max level tanks running around in banded gear ! And yes i have seen it.

    Thanks Dkeesling007. I know my "wishlist" isn't ideal for all, but what I want to illustrate is the desire for a bit of customization. We don't need a dozen different abilities, perhaps tweak everything to go, "Oh wow that dire lord services _____, compared to my guildmate who acts in the name of ______." Excellent immersion tools, I think! But I would love to hear additional ideas! :)

    Kilsin said:

    Nice post Faelor :)

    Thanks Kilsin! And thanks for verifying what many of us expected (and hoped for) regarding the dire lord. ;)

     

    PS: Modified a few things on my "wish list" with clarifying abilities, fixing a few typos, etc.

    • 65 posts
    December 30, 2016 4:16 PM PST

    As far as the skills and how they should evolve over time. I would rather see 5 or 10 main skills for the class which improve over time rather than 50 and they change the name over and over. 2 or 3 spells to help with agro or agro based abilities. 2 or 3 abilities that give small bonuses to the group like and AC buff or Group Lifetaps/Manataps. And mabye some utility spells like FD Shadow Step Harmshield or the the like. 

    As we are a warrior based class first several disiplines would be welcomed as well once we reach a high enough to aquire them. 10% reduction in melee damage 20 % change to dodge ect ect that can be activated with a very long cooldown.

    Not sure how much more i can add. I dont know if i could really shoot out any fresh ideas. I played EQ for far to long so im a bit linear in my thinking. Providing some skilled players are still around who can pay attention and chain pull while i hold agro and keep people alive ill go with the flow.

    • 52 posts
    December 30, 2016 6:41 PM PST

    I think you hit the nail on the head, Dkeesling007. As neat as it was to see so many names in EverQuest (as my first MMO), it became very overwhelming and confusing. People referring to the first tier name, last tier name, or just the fact the name changed slightly. If you look at EverQuest now (this is an arbitrary point given the game's age), the names are absolutely ridiculous. Give it a single, meaningful and memoriable name, and give it upgrades via ranks/tiers. I rather see Life Tap VI or just simply Life Tap than Lord Shadow Guy's Infinitely Superior Evil Taparoo XVII++. If I had to give a preference off the top of my head, I'd love to see the spells scale with level, and the next tier/rank (II, III, IV, etc) when there's an actual change to the spell that is learned from focusing on enemies, completing a quest, etc. Example: 

    Lifetap - Drains 10 (level 1) to 260 (level 50) health from the target.

    Lifetap II - Drains 10 (level 1) to 260 (level 50) health from the target. Has increased chance to critically hit and critically heal.

    Lifetap III - Drains 10 (level 1) to 260 (level 50) health from the target. Has a increased to critically hit and critically heal. Increased effect when the Dire Lord is under 35% health.

    I definitely, definitely agree regarding attention and engaging combat. I know it isn't "true to EverQuest", but I am an absolutely large fan of reactive abilities that you see in games like Vanguard and World of Warcraft. Did you parry an attack? Follow-up! Do you perceive an incoming devastating blow? Raise your shield to mitigate the attack! Having these in the game will definitely be a large make or break for me. I do not want, and I don't think Visionary Realms does either, a game where I can make 2-4 macros to do everything.

    • 1899 posts
    December 30, 2016 6:51 PM PST

    I suck at reactive abilities; one of the main reasons I don't play PvP games, which tend to use them.

    • 2016 posts
    December 30, 2016 7:25 PM PST

    Though I dont have any interest in playing DL or Necro. I think the OP is on the right track. Its Dark Knight with a touch of Necro, so this seems pretty close to that vision. Which Im pretty sure is the direction VR is going.

    • 1899 posts
    December 31, 2016 4:04 PM PST

    Let's hope so.

    • 204 posts
    December 31, 2016 9:04 PM PST

    Faelor said:

    I definitely, definitely agree regarding attention and engaging combat. I know it isn't "true to EverQuest", but I am an absolutely large fan of reactive abilities that you see in games like Vanguard and World of Warcraft. Did you parry an attack? Follow-up! Do you perceive an incoming devastating blow? Raise your shield to mitigate the attack! Having these in the game will definitely be a large make or break for me. I do not want, and I don't think Visionary Realms does either, a game where I can make 2-4 macros to do everything.


    Great thread, Faelor.

    I love reactive and chained combat abilities. One caveat being that the ability you're reacting to has to either be telegraphed in some way, or take a second or three to occur. Anything less and you're moving into the twitch combat area where you're simply reacting to animations or sounds and not really viewing the battlefield as a whole. While this combat has a place in some games, I'm pretty sure Pantheon isn't that place.

    • 418 posts
    December 31, 2016 11:08 PM PST
    /clap Faelor!

    I hope Dire Lords won't end up having horrible dps - the dark knight archetype communes with darkness for power, and dishing out low damage has always seemed wrong to me. I'd rather them be dps-focused instead of tanky if we had to choose one or the other.
    • 1899 posts
    January 1, 2017 12:40 PM PST

    Tank all the way for me. I hate melee DPS.

    • 52 posts
    January 1, 2017 5:06 PM PST

    Alexander said: /clap Faelor! I hope Dire Lords won't end up having horrible dps - the dark knight archetype communes with darkness for power, and dishing out low damage has always seemed wrong to me. I'd rather them be dps-focused instead of tanky if we had to choose one or the other.

    Thank you, Alexander! I enjoy being a heavy-armor wearing damage dealer in games like World of Warcraft. Would the choice be welcomed? Y-yes, but I also realize that for the last three years VR developers have said each class will have a primary role they focus on. 

    Beefcake said:

    Tank all the way for me. I hate melee DPS.

    I do have to agree with Beefcake, I hope no matter what twists and turns happen during Pantheon's life cycle, the Dire Lord stays a tank. That said, I am all for a stance that allows us to dish out a bit more damage when we're soloing (again; not the focus of the game, or perhaps soloing lower level content) or when there's other tanks. Or perhaps even during a burn phase of a fight.

    Point being, I don't want to be doing ~50% of what a rogue or wizard does, especially if I'm making strategically making sound decisions in combat and they barely put in any effort.

     

    For what it's worth, I'll probably keep tweaking my mock-up, if nothing else because it's fun to dream and imagine. ;) #armchairDeveloper


    This post was edited by Faelor at January 1, 2017 5:07 PM PST
    • 65 posts
    January 7, 2017 9:36 AM PST

    Just to be clear on the DPS issue for a Dire Lord. At least in my opinion our role in most group settings will likly be very linear. Why i dont think all people will be happy about it as a tank your main role should be to tank. Damage should be low on our list of what we do well. From games like EQ Vanguard and WOW people kinda  expect for tanks to do a good portion of the damage in a group. While this has changed over the years im not sure i agree. When i engage a mob my primary goal is to keep agro so the dps/healier in a group wont get slaped in the face. If i can do that and stay alive ill be doing my job.

    As long as the tank classes have about the same DPS accross the board im fine. I dont mind having some minor diffrences with the classes where pallys can do a bit more on undead mobs or the like.

     

    Tank classes hold agro

    Healier classes heal

    Dps classes DPS

    CC classes CC

    I am not saying thats your only specific role in a group but thats the way groups are built in games like this. 

     

    Great players in these games can have several roles if they play well. Example lets say you have a really bad pull. Everyone at that point turns in CC classes. Tank can hold two mobs. Casters can root. CC classes CC/stun even a dps class could off tank for a limited amount of time. I have even seen the Battle Cleric tank and heal at the same time. 

    • 204 posts
    January 7, 2017 8:59 PM PST

    While I do agree wth you, Dkeesling007, standing right in the face of a mob and smashing it over and over with a sword has to actually do a good chunk of damage. While it should be nowhere near that of a DPS class, some damage (a third?) that of what a DPS class generates over a single fight seems reasonable and realistic and it also does contribute nicely to the DL tanking role in that it also generates aggro.

    I am likely biased though, as the two roles in games I play are tank and DPS, and I do like to see a bit a hybrid of the two :)

    • 1899 posts
    January 7, 2017 9:02 PM PST

    I think there should be a tank and DPS configuration. Both should be viable. Some groups have no choice, but to put a second tank in on DPS mode. But, they should not do the high quality DPS of the pure DPS classes.

    • 52 posts
    January 11, 2017 6:38 AM PST

    I'm a fan of different configurations, modes, stances, specs, or whatever you want to call it. With Pantheon having the model of a tank is a tank, I have a feeling we'll see it be some sort of stance. But maybe one specialization will be a smidge better at AE and the other at single target, even if it's unintentional by developers. I'm a large fan of the +damage mod on an offense stance, as shown by my mock-up design above. Nothing overpowering or that would make a DPS class go, "Hey, that's my turf."

    It's hard to discuss numbers, but for the sake of discussion, but I feel 50-60% the damage of a DPS is fair in regards to general single target and AE situations. DPS classes will have much more potent cooldowns related to their role (+damage, +critical, +haste, -cooldown), while tanks have cooldowns for their respective role (+mitigation, +avoidance, +recovery, +healing). There's even differences between the archetypes, which in a way is what makes individual classes. A rogue's ability to potentially burst with insane backstabs or a wizard throwing out a giant nuke or two is much different than an EQ ranger's 2-minute True Strike, Vanguard ranger's 30-second Ferocity, or EQ monk's 30-second Innerflame Discipline which weren't as bursty arguably. Depends on the era/patch of the game. :)

    TL;DR: As long as the gameplay is engaging, classes have identity, but aren't completely useless when out of the role (tanks not tanking) and combat isn't some auto-attack snore where I am cycling through 3-6 abilities as soon as they are off cooldown, I'm going to be very happy with Pantheon.


    This post was edited by Faelor at January 11, 2017 6:56 AM PST
    • 65 posts
    January 12, 2017 6:56 PM PST

    Umbra said:

    While I do agree wth you, Dkeesling007, standing right in the face of a mob and smashing it over and over with a sword has to actually do a good chunk of damage. While it should be nowhere near that of a DPS class, some damage (a third?) that of what a DPS class generates over a single fight seems reasonable and realistic and it also does contribute nicely to the DL tanking role in that it also generates aggro.

    I am likely biased though, as the two roles in games I play are tank and DPS, and I do like to see a bit a hybrid of the two :)

    Im not saying a hybrid for tank/dps cant be done but in all the games i have seen and played it has never been done well. Now if for example you want to play a warrior in chain gear and not full plate i could see them upping your damage because of the lower defense and added mobility. But even in that case i dont think a tank class should out perform a pure dps class. If that happened every warror would be looking to try and back stab something.

    • 65 posts
    January 12, 2017 6:57 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I think there should be a tank and DPS configuration. Both should be viable. Some groups have no choice, but to put a second tank in on DPS mode. But, they should not do the high quality DPS of the pure DPS classes.

    There already is a tank/dps configuration. Its a sword/board or a 2h weapon. 

    • 65 posts
    January 12, 2017 7:08 PM PST

    Faelor said:

    I'm a fan of different configurations, modes, stances, specs, or whatever you want to call it. With Pantheon having the model of a tank is a tank, I have a feeling we'll see it be some sort of stance. But maybe one specialization will be a smidge better at AE and the other at single target, even if it's unintentional by developers. I'm a large fan of the +damage mod on an offense stance, as shown by my mock-up design above. Nothing overpowering or that would make a DPS class go, "Hey, that's my turf."

    It's hard to discuss numbers, but for the sake of discussion, but I feel 50-60% the damage of a DPS is fair in regards to general single target and AE situations. DPS classes will have much more potent cooldowns related to their role (+damage, +critical, +haste, -cooldown), while tanks have cooldowns for their respective role (+mitigation, +avoidance, +recovery, +healing). There's even differences between the archetypes, which in a way is what makes individual classes. A rogue's ability to potentially burst with insane backstabs or a wizard throwing out a giant nuke or two is much different than an EQ ranger's 2-minute True Strike, Vanguard ranger's 30-second Ferocity, or EQ monk's 30-second Innerflame Discipline which weren't as bursty arguably. Depends on the era/patch of the game. :)

    TL;DR: As long as the gameplay is engaging, classes have identity, but aren't completely useless when out of the role (tanks not tanking) and combat isn't some auto-attack snore where I am cycling through 3-6 abilities as soon as they are off cooldown, I'm going to be very happy with Pantheon.

    As far of stances/specs ect i would agree that they would be welcomed for all. As far as damage done in a group it should be dps/tank/cc/pets/healier going battle cleric =).

    I am iffy as far as what tanks would need to give up to increase your + damage. Would you need to gear completely for DPS or would you be restricted to chain or light armor? The benifit to me is small when others can fill the roll for which they were made. 

    Keep in mind im not saying a warrior cant strap on a 2h weapon and go crazy but if you ever are doing more damage in your group than the same level wizard........someone would need to get a kick in the head.