UnknownQuantity said:Gurt I have commented in another thread about items, but I do feel that item's shouldn't give attribute bonuses. I feel this because it artificially inflates players stats and eventually racial differences become pointless. It also makes players to strong eventually. Then there is a huge gap between the high level and low level players. In Vanilla EQ there were some major differences between the races in terms of attributes. A Orgre or Troll was the best tank for instance because they had the highest HP and Strength. They also could bash with two handed weapons.
I do remember mounts in Vanilla World of Warcraft and you are correct about that. It was easy to fall of your horse. That doesn't change the fact that getting around is a bit too easy. If getting a SoW or a port from a Druid or Wizard is a better option then why have the mounts at all? Just let the players ask someone for a SoW or a port. Let there be interdependence between the player classes. Players relying on eachother for utility spells is fairly nonexistent in most MMO's these days. This game is the chance to have something different.
Ogres and Trolls weren't the best tanks because of HP and Str, they were the best tanks because Trollish regeneration made for less downtime amd Ogres were immune to stuns from the front. Additionally, both could slam because they were large (slam was a superoir move to bash) and the penalities that came with being trolls and ogres (exp, large items, faction) largely didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
On one hand you say that mounts make travel too easy yet on the other you acknowledge that Porting and SoW are superior. The reason to have both is to give players the options to forgo their travel saftey to get somewhere a touch faster than walking speed in the rare case that a druid or wizard cannot be contacted. Nobody wants mounts to replace SoW and porting, no one wants to remove class interdependency. You argue against mounts with the subjective opinion of "too easy" and refuse to acknowledge that there are things the developers can do to actually make mounted travel riskier or harder.
Beefcake said:The problem with expecting gear to match is that the devs may think this set all works together stat-wise, but then players will determine different pieces can be swapped in to increase a certain aspect. The devs may plan a BiS set to be all matching, but it will get mish mashed by the players anyways.
There's a few ways to deal with this.
Set bonuses. If the majority of stats comes from set bonuses then mixing and matching either wont be possible, or will only happen in pairs or small groups form various sets. If done right (as in literally every peice of gear belongs to a set with set bonuses for each peice equipped) this can be a good system if hard to code. If done poorly (only end game gear with set bonuses) it's terrible.
Another method would be to have certain stats only appearing on certain slots. For instance, +strength may not exist on any chest items, but instead can only be found on hands and boots.
Yeah gonna have to agree with Beefcake, your system sounds stifling and god awful, forcing centralization for the bizarre purpose of making people's gear look a little more cohesive. It's basically the opposite of what older model mmos encouraged.
The mount argument is pretty ridiculous, the primary problem is that mounted travel makes overland movement less dangerous because movement speed is the best stat in any mmo. SoW as a buff is relatively minor compared to what the average mounted speed is like. You want to make quasi-permanent effects like a self-mount extremely hard to acquire precisely because, more than any other stat except literal immunity to damage, movement speed buffs destroy the threat of dangerous areas.
Beefcake said:So, your solution to get people to wear matching sets is to force them to or they lose out. Sounds like a crappy system that removes choice and customization from the players.
I think you'd be surprised how much choice and customization would exist in what I would consider a good set system.
The player would have something like 10 equip slots to fill out and chould take 3 peices from Set A for 2 Set A bonuses, 2 from Set B for 1 Set B bonus, and 5 from Set C for 4 Set C bonuses. The player then has to choose which individual peices from each of those sets he is taking because they all have individual stats too. The only thing that is forced is that every peice of gear will match at least one other peice of gear.
All of that said, I personally prefer my second option.
I just don't see what set bonuses add to equipment. Their primary use in games that have set bonuses is to make sure that the previous tier of gear is doubly obsolete. In a game where you're trying to make a much shallower progression curve they seem if anything ot be a bad decision.
Jimmayus said:I just don't see what set bonuses add to equipment. Their primary use in games that have set bonuses is to make sure that the previous tier of gear is doubly obsolete. In a game where you're trying to make a much shallower progression curve they seem if anything ot be a bad decision.
Sets were implemented to ensure that players stayed on the loot treadmill for as long as possible. Why do I need the shoulderpads that give 5 extra AC and 1 more stamina? Because they unlock the set bonus that gives 500 HP and +10 Strength!
The key to using sets in a game with shallower progression is making sure that the sets are more peicemeal than we normally see in games and ensuring that none of the set bonuses are crazy and are balanced around other set bonuses from items of the same level. It's the age old adage: When everything's special, nothing is. If every item belongs to a set (or two!) then the set bonuses are just the stats that would be on the items. The only difference is that it becomes harder for players to game the attribute systems.
Beefcake said:I would not mind two or three items as a set, just not a full gear outlay. I like jewelry as set items, because they do not affect appearance.
Under what I envisioned, a player could have all 10 items from one set or coulds have 2 items from 5 different sets and both loadouts would be equally effective, assuming all the peices were properly choosen of course.
Gurt said:There's a few ways to deal with this.
Set bonuses. If the majority of stats comes from set bonuses then mixing and matching either wont be possible, or will only happen in pairs or small groups form various sets. If done right (as in literally every peice of gear belongs to a set with set bonuses for each peice equipped) this can be a good system if hard to code. If done poorly (only end game gear with set bonuses) it's terrible.
Another method would be to have certain stats only appearing on certain slots. For instance, +strength may not exist on any chest items, but instead can only be found on hands and boots.
Both good systems that have been used before in other games (set bonuses and stat-slot restrictions) in the past.
Another option is if Pantheon has LDON style customization for all slots, all weapons, all armor, at launch. That permits each player to customize their equipment for their role within their class. Even more so if it permits specific enhancements of class specific spells/skills. (like AA's, but even more specific, if desired)
Now, if you want something innovative for Pantheon, you'd have that PLUS Environmental customization. That is, time being currency, the longer a player spends in an area, or the more they kill in an area, increase their attunement with that area. That results in widgets being dropped (personal loot) that enable such a mechanic. Common, Boss, and very challenging group content would drop more and more powerful widgets for Environment customization, raising personal power that only applies to specific Environmental content. Haven't put in the time? Guaranteed failure. Put in the time? A chance at success.
And you'll note, personal loot, not just No-Trade. That means only you can see it, and only you can loot it. No more selling looting rights. No more PL'ing alts that don't contribute. In fact, attunement could be tied to performing your class role. DPS moar as DPS? Get more Environmental widget-loot. Heal moar as a healer? Get more Environmental widget-loot. Same applies for CC & Tanking. Rewards those players that play well, consuming group content. Visionary Realms has said repeatedly a current design goal is that group content will be the majority of the content in Pantheon. Great, sounds like it all lines up.
The entire concept of static drops is... positively primitive, given all the available options. I hate to keep saying that, but making/encouraging/driving/forcing every player on the server camp one open-world competitive static drop for their class is punitive design. Yes, a small number of potential subscribers will do it, it's true, I mean, people still play EQ now, as primitive and punitive as it is. But there are just so many better options.
Luckily, only the rarest items will be "attunable". This is an all, or mostly all, tradable game. The last thing we want is personal loot. That destroys the economy. Why would you ever need to buy something from anyone if everyone got their personal loot.
Competitive drops is part of the style we are looking for.
And yet every game with personal loot has been successful. So, in those games, it didn't destroy the economy, nor does it have to in Pantheon. If you're looking for interdependency, via crafting, that's an entirely separate topic.
If you want class specific armor, weapons, and mounts, then letting each player customize their entire gear set via what they achieve in group combat, and their personal power and progression, then why is personal loot the ultimate antithesis to success? In all the games I've played that have had it, the only thing it removed was the toxic social problems created by static drops.
And as per the last video, they've already said that a potential mechanic in Pantheon is that customizing gear to suit you makes it no-trade.
Gurt I still disagree on mounts. We don't know how fast they will be yet. They might be faster than Spirit of the Wolf or other spells. Most MMOs these days have mounts for exactly the reason you stated. It's so people who have no time can get around quickly without looking for someone with the capability to teleport them or give them a speed buff. I am hopeful this game will deviate from the trend. As mentioned it removes interdependence and makes the world to easy to navigate in most cases. Maybe it's possible to make it so it would be difficult to travel with a mount, but then what would be the point of the mount? If most classes have to either get someone to cast a speed buff on them, teleport, or walk then that is what we are hopefully aiming for with this game. It's something different, niche, and not something not everyone has time to appreciate. It’s like the boats in Original EQ. You had to take the full boat trip each time you went or like the trip from Qeynos to the Commonlands where you had to go through either Runnyeye or Highpass Hold to get there. The journey was quite difficult.
That comment about customizing the gear causing it to be no trade, was after a crafter modified it. That not the same as personal loot. I have no problem with making modded gear no trade. It's not the same item and it helps get items out of the game, an item sink.
Personal loot ends the trading that we are looking for. Don't need 75 items dropping from each raid mob. That also eliminates the desire to repeat content.
UnknownQuantity said:Gurt I still disagree on mounts. We don't know how fast they will be yet. They might be faster than Spirit of the Wolf or other spells. Most MMOs these days have mounts for exactly the reason you stated. It's so people who have no time can get around quickly without looking for someone with the capability to teleport them or give them a speed buff. I am hopeful this game will deviate from the trend. As mentioned it removes interdependence and makes the world to easy to navigate in most cases. Maybe it's possible to make it so it would be difficult to travel with a mount, but then what would be the point of the mount? If most classes have to either get someone to cast a speed buff on them, teleport, or walk then that is what we are hopefully aiming for with this game. It's something different, niche, and not something not everyone has time to appreciate. It’s like the boats in Original EQ. You had to take the full boat trip each time you went or like the trip from Qeynos to the Commonlands where you had to go through either Runnyeye or Highpass Hold to get there. The journey was quite difficult.
I miss boats.
Beefcake said:That comment about customizing the gear causing it to be no trade, was after a crafter modified it. That not the same as personal loot. I have no problem with making modded gear no trade. It's not the same item and it helps get items out of the game, an item sink.
Personal loot ends the trading that we are looking for. Don't need 75 items dropping from each raid mob. That also eliminates the desire to repeat content.
You'll note it's customization widgets that are personal loot, in what I've outlined as an innovative gear mechanic for Pantheon. Not complete gear drops. Entirely different mechanic than what you're imagining / assuming. In fact, what I've outlined increases the desire to repeat content, almost indefinitely.
The presumption that the only content worth doing is raid mobs is also not a current publicly stated design goal of Visionary Realms for Pantheon.
Vjek you are correct that personal look removed toxicity from games, but at what cost? There is no personal achievement in current MMOs. Having real competition for items obviously will make some people jealous or envious of the others. That is the price of competition and freedom. There are some good things that come out this just besides things staying rare and actually having some value in game. One would be that items can be passed down to other people when a person is done using them. Another as mentioned is that people can buy and trade items from each other. I suppose it depends on what you are looking for in a game, but there are plenty of games out there that already provide personal items IMO. Why ask that feature to be included in a game that is attempting to provide an old school system?
I miss boats.
Me too.
I have to admit that I have the guilty pleasure of enjoying watching others fall into the ocean when the boat zoned due to a bug. Of course it kind of sucked when I was the one who fell into the ocean and had to wait for another boat or even worse fell into the larger part of the ocean so I had to swim to/find an island. It was fairly exciting when that happened though. Especially the first time as I was out of stamina and didn't find land. I also died in the ocean once and couldn't get my body back because the ocean was so deep.
Fun times.
Unique, hard-to-get weapons make people REALLY want to get them. I remember the first time I saw Aradune's Flaming Sword in EQ and I remember asking everyone where we could get swords like that! It looked so awesome compared to the sword I was swinging!
UnknownQuantity said:
Vjek you are correct that personal look removed toxicity from games, but at what cost? There is no personal achievement in current MMOs. Having real competition for items obviously will make some people jealous or envious of the others. That is the price of competition and freedom. There are some good things that come out this just besides things staying rare and actually having some value in game. One would be that items can be passed down to other people when a person is done using them. Another as mentioned is that people can buy and trade items from each other. I suppose it depends on what you are looking for in a game, but there are plenty of games out there that already provide personal items IMO. Why ask that feature to be included in a game that is attempting to provide an old school system?
Because simply re-making EQ1 with new Lore is a guaranteed failure in 2017+, in my opinion. Innovation is going to be required to gather a large enough demographic for success. Invisible NPC's with a perception check for quests is not enough of a carrot. (that's already possible in NWN1, btw)
To your point, what I've outlined will make that 'rare gear' more difficult to obtain and require more time investment, and require more time spent in positive social interaction in groups. More of what made EQ1 good, without the social toxicity of static drops. It may not be the best option on this topic, but at least it's an option that attracts a larger demographic while removing toxicity. It's hard to see the downside, from my perspective.
And make no mistake, I'll be happy to play Pantheon if all it ends up being is a re-make of EQ1 with new Lore. I just don't think there will be enough subscribers with that design, alone.
People keep claiming that this is a remake of EQ with better graphics. It's not. Get over yourself. Stop trying to claim what you know is not true. It doesn't make your argument stronger. It's just another straw man distracation.
They are mixing new an old ideas together to make a stronger game. But it's not for everyone. Watering down the game to attract more people would be a betrayal of the tenants of the game.
You say it's toxic, I say it's competitive.
Toxic players make a game toxic, not the loot system. Instant gratification from mass loot drops for everyone breads toxic players.
UnknownQuantity said:Gurt I still disagree on mounts. We don't know how fast they will be yet. They might be faster than Spirit of the Wolf or other spells. Most MMOs these days have mounts for exactly the reason you stated. It's so people who have no time can get around quickly without looking for someone with the capability to teleport them or give them a speed buff. I am hopeful this game will deviate from the trend. As mentioned it removes interdependence and makes the world to easy to navigate in most cases. Maybe it's possible to make it so it would be difficult to travel with a mount, but then what would be the point of the mount? If most classes have to either get someone to cast a speed buff on them, teleport, or walk then that is what we are hopefully aiming for with this game. It's something different, niche, and not something not everyone has time to appreciate. It’s like the boats in Original EQ. You had to take the full boat trip each time you went or like the trip from Qeynos to the Commonlands where you had to go through either Runnyeye or Highpass Hold to get there. The journey was quite difficult.
The entire point of these forums is to discuss what we want to see in Pantheon and what we want to keep out because it would hurt the game. Some things can only hurt what the game is intended to be (i.e. instances). Others can only help it (player interdependence through class abilities). Most things could go either way depending on implementation. I am of the opinion that if something can be included in such a way that it wouldn't hurt the game then it should be included and the developers should be trusted to include it in a manner that is good for the game.
You say that the inclusion of mounts would remove interdependence. Since you seem to ignore my arguement to the counter, I am forced to assume that I did not cover your concern. How then will mounts remove interdependence?
You ask what is the point of a mount that's hard to travel with. The point is that it could allow players to risk the more difficult journey and a potential corpse run for the reward of arriving at a destination sooner.
Finally, I would like to point out that speed of travel doesn't inherrently make a journey harder or easier, what does that are the systems put in place that the player must interact with while on his journey. I, like you and most others here, want travel to be meaningful and hard. That means I run a very real risk of getting lost and/or dying. What it doesn't mean is that I have to spend three hours running through 4 zones with only the barest of attention being paid to my surroundings.
I don't really want to see class specific armor. I'd rather there just be penalties. A caster wearing plate should be penalized, but should be an option (unless they add a way to become super-duper trained in plate armor for some other penalty). On the other side, sure, that warrior can wield a wizard staff but a greatsword might be a bit better to do the job.
Mounts? Let not do what WoW did. Lets also make it realistic. You need a place to store your magical horse, and you can't just summon one at whim unless your name is paladin/crusader and it comes with the class.
Beefcake said:Gurt, you keep saying the developers can make fast mounts dangerous, but you offer no examples.
I do not see what would make riding a mount inherently dangerous enough to cause "a very real risk of getting lost and/or dying".
Cliffs.
Ravines.
Blind corners.
Speed debuffs on being dismounted.
Getting attacked forcing dismount.
Spooling of melee attacks for NPCs.
High proliferation of ranged and magic damage among NPCs.
Lower defences while mounted.
Restricted field of view while mounted.
Mounts having a turn radius.
Mounts needing to build up to full speed.
Larger model size intercepting projectiles meant for others.
Et cetera.
Beefcake said:Gurt, you keep saying the developers can make fast mounts dangerous, but you offer no examples.
I do not see what would make riding a mount inherently dangerous enough to cause "a very real risk of getting lost and/or dying".
This seems an easy one, a Mount= 2xSpeed.... make it also =2X agro range, If they want it make it MORE dangerous 3x agro range
Want to add to that danger, -50% dodge, or whatever stat would control getting knocked off the mount.
I have been following the conversation, I'm NOT in favor of mount's. I totally hate them cluttering up the towns or other crowded areas. I dislike them replacing the need to ask other players for help. But if they do decide to have them, and they are indeed speed multipliers beyond what sow offers... then I wouldlike it to cost and cost dearly to use them, they should be totally discouraged. IMHO