Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Class Specific armors/weapons and mounts

    • 21 posts
    December 28, 2016 11:59 AM PST

    This is a question I would like to see answered  by the developers of Pantheon. I know from past experiences with the games I have playeed there has always been a general armor and mount given to the class, due to content and development content constraints. My question is will we see specific armors for Classes like Crusaders and Dire Lords like we had seen in EQ2 and the likes. I mean while a Dire lord may have a horse, one would think they would have some mount that had a theme of instilling fear in a person when they see them coming (Steed with a black, un wordly aura). Wheras a Crusader might have a Righteous looking steed based off healing and protection.

     

    As far as flying mounts, Again, previous game Vanguard, I was very happy to see the "Wyrms" and "Griffons"  introduced but still think that it should have been limited to certain classes within the game.

    Now for those of you that ask why the different mounts for different classes on the same raids and such, the replability of the game goes up if each class has a different mount and different gear from the other classes. It makes the person unique in the fact that they are totally different in gear, look and immersion than another class (See some other class wearing your armor set).

     

    Thoughts on this, as I have seen this done before but thought this was something I should bring up as a topic to be discussed.

    • 1618 posts
    December 28, 2016 12:28 PM PST

    I believe its already planned, at least racial armors and some mounts. I assume there would be special class gear as well.

    • 556 posts
    December 28, 2016 1:52 PM PST

    Brads already stated flying mounts won't be in Pantheon but I wouldn't mind seeing racial armor/mounts or even class ones so long as it fits the theme. If they go the route of class armors I would hope there are long drawn out quest lines to them. Maybe similar to Crafted Armor for warriors in EQ but more quest related. Mini epic quest lines if you will that test you at your class rather than who you can get to farm things with you

    • 781 posts
    • 59 posts
    December 28, 2016 2:39 PM PST

    well aslong as we dont get super strange mounts im for it!

    • 284 posts
    December 28, 2016 3:46 PM PST

    I view a wide variety of gaudy mounts as immersion breaking and silly, in the same vein as throwing tons of cosmetic glitter at players to keep them entertained. It's the mmo developer version of shaking a rattle in a babies face.

    To me, mounts are a quintessential example of a convenience feature that has bloated way beyond what its scope should have been. At the very least I would like to see heavy restrictions on even acquiring a permanent mount because, like equipment, throwing them out has diminished all sense of accomplishment in modern games to appeal to children.

    I sincerely doubt anyone would agree with me, but my personal ideal would be: you have to rent horses from stables located near settlement exits, and the horses are best used while on roads as uneven terrain would slow them considerably. Renting is not incredibly expensive, but it is a gold sink. Eventually you build up enough reputation to quest to be permitted to buy a mount, which you can just magically access from any nearby stable (and it runs back to the stable when you dismount/dismiss it). Stabling it in one place is probably too realistic for a game, especially if distances are very large.

    But yeah, having a large variety of fantastical mounts is to me actually a negative in an older model mmo, not a positive.

    • 105 posts
    December 28, 2016 5:35 PM PST

    Jimmayus said:

    I view a wide variety of gaudy mounts as immersion breaking and silly, in the same vein as throwing tons of cosmetic glitter at players to keep them entertained. It's the mmo developer version of shaking a rattle in a babies face.

    To me, mounts are a quintessential example of a convenience feature that has bloated way beyond what its scope should have been. At the very least I would like to see heavy restrictions on even acquiring a permanent mount because, like equipment, throwing them out has diminished all sense of accomplishment in modern games to appeal to children.

    I sincerely doubt anyone would agree with me, but my personal ideal would be: you have to rent horses from stables located near settlement exits, and the horses are best used while on roads as uneven terrain would slow them considerably. Renting is not incredibly expensive, but it is a gold sink. Eventually you build up enough reputation to quest to be permitted to buy a mount, which you can just magically access from any nearby stable (and it runs back to the stable when you dismount/dismiss it). Stabling it in one place is probably too realistic for a game, especially if distances are very large.

    But yeah, having a large variety of fantastical mounts is to me actually a negative in an older model mmo, not a positive.

     

    Love this idea, I would rather see rented mounts, or bought mounts that are then stabled, instead of clickie poof a mount appears.  Maybe later on there could be a high level item that can summon a slower mount for convience and maybe have some classes able to summon or call mounts, like summoners or druids or something.

    • 610 posts
    December 28, 2016 6:09 PM PST

    Im torn on this, I dont want class specific armors cause I would hate to look like every other cleric out there. Buuut on the other hand Lambent Armor was sweet LOL

    As long as the class specific armor isnt BIS so where everyone feels compelled to wear it I would be ok with it. Its only when getting that armor becomes THE driving force in the game because its just better than anything else that I start to not like it

    • 3 posts
    December 28, 2016 9:54 PM PST

    I'm pretty sure items will be wide until we quest into our specialization, then we'll start to see the higher level items integrated into our class type.

    • 316 posts
    December 28, 2016 10:20 PM PST

    geatz said:

     I would rather see rented mounts, or bought mounts that are then stabled, instead of clickie poof a mount appears.  Maybe later on there could be a high level item that can summon a slower mount for convience and maybe have some classes able to summon or call mounts, like summoners or druids or something.

    Absolutely! Seconded for emphasis and support. The clickie-poof mount makes it seem more like a joke to me. I'd love to see mounts stabled somewhere - and perhaps we could tell the mounts to walk back to their stable when we dismount entering a dungeon or wherever. Perhaps we could tell the mount to walk to either the nearest stable or the stable of our choice. Love also the idea of summoners and druids being able to call mounts. It'd be nice to have mounts be a more serious thing than just an enhanced run speed graphic that we can turn on or off basically wherever. I think it'd be great to have a little more thought involved with how and when we're going to use them.

    • 1618 posts
    December 29, 2016 2:35 PM PST

    Maybe I can slaughter all the riderless horses that I see and make glue for my alchemy items.

    • 780 posts
    December 30, 2016 1:42 AM PST

    I read through all of the threads Kelem linked (even the 12 page Appearance Gear sh*t show), and I guess it's better to post my thoughts here than in those other threads.  

     

    I think I could also do without mounts.  Maybe that's just because mounts came into EverQuest when the game started to die for me.  I dunno.  I'm definitely used to mounts from WoW and other games, but I have to agree that the summoning and disappearing is pretty lame.  I liked the ideas about getting mounts from stables and having them wander back to the nearest stable if left unattended for a certain amount of time.  Maybe sometimes they are stolen or killed before they get back to the stable and you have to buy another.  Maybe you buy a horse for a trip to another town and sell it again when you arrive to get some of your money back.  Or maybe people could own several horses and keep them stabled in different towns for convenience.  Maybe you have to pay for every day you have a horse stabled.  The more I think about it, though, the harder it seems to implement mounts properly.  Either you let players pop them in and out of existence whenever they like, or they just don't seem to be worth using.  Why deal with the hassles above when you can just buy a port?  And if mounts are going to be meant for long journeys between faraway towns, I'd prefer something more like Archeage's carriage system.  It gives you some of the convenience of the taxi routes from newer games, but you still have to wait for the carriage rather than taking off whenever you like.  I miss that feeling of getting to the dick just as the boat is pulling away...lol.  You can also end up back where you started (like EQ boats) if you are AFK too long.  Think I can do without the dlemon steeds and holy horses and whatever other class-specific mounts.

     

    As for the class-specific gear, I'm excited to find meaningful, memorable loot in a game again.  I've had quite enough of the generic, randomized gear that gets upgraded every other day.  I hope they do include quested mid-level class sets like EQ had, and I hope they have other sets dropping.  I kind of liked people from the same class looking like each other and I do miss being able to tell what someone is wearing by their appearance, but I'll say that being able to show the graphic of one robe you own while wearing another robe you own is not going to kill me.  I still think loot can be memorable and meaningful even if its appearance has been altered.  I'm open-minded about this.

     

    EDIT: Typo


    This post was edited by Shucklighter at December 30, 2016 2:05 AM PST
    • 169 posts
    December 30, 2016 9:26 AM PST

    I often wonder if mounts should be in these types of games at all.  The reason for that is that it cuts down on travel time so much and makes it so safe that traveling becomes trivial.  Even if you can’t get a mount until maximum level you will end up seeing everyone riding around on a mount eventually.  I would think riding a mount would be something reserved for people like the noble class.  Obviously it doesn’t have to be, but like in many other aspects it increases the value of certain things.  If something is common place it is no longer valuable.  You also have to consider that expansions will be released and then people will be getting mounts below the level cap.

    I’m kind of iffy on class specific equipment.  It was nice having epic quests that were difficult to complete.  It was a bit dull that all the high levels ended up wearing or using the same weapons and armor though.  I actually prefer that no class sets exist and people just put together something out of the equipment they find while adventuring.


    This post was edited by UnknownQuantity at December 30, 2016 9:30 AM PST
    • 1778 posts
    December 30, 2016 9:49 AM PST
    I'm a fan. Needs to make sense though. And not be rampant.
    • 89 posts
    December 30, 2016 10:27 AM PST

    As far as mounts are concerned, I could take 'em or leave 'em.  I think getting a cool mount can be a great motivator for playing a is one of those all too rare clear signs of progression.  That said, I can honestly say that of my favorite 3 MMOs I've ever played, only one had mounts at all.  So their inclusion is not a requirement for a good game.  I do, however, disagree with the notion that there should only be a couple of mounts.  I rather enjoy seeing the various fantasy beasts of burden, and even in our real world there are several animals that have been used as mounts by various cultures.  Elephants, camels, horses, and donkeys just to name a few.

    I don't believe that everyone looking the same is a valid concern to bar class specific equipment.  There will be Best in Slot items, it's a fact.  Even if Pantheon allows everyone to equip everything and all the classes are designed to get use out of every stat, the metagame will determine which stats are best for each class and the items that emphasize those stats will become Best in Slot.  If everyone is running around in all Best in Slot gear for their class then everyone in that class will look alike anyway.  Why not have them look alike in a way that looks cool rather than seeing dozens of clownsuited rogues that all shop at the same clown shop.

    • 169 posts
    December 30, 2016 10:39 AM PST

    Hi Gurt,


    In terms of the class specific armor it will make a difference. One difference is that people will have to figure out what items are best for their class. Another is that not everything will match so it looks more interesting.  It also gives the option to not be locked into one set of specific equipment. Depending on how powerful the equipment and equipment progression is there might not be much difference between equipment aside from having a little more damage, and extra effect, a little more armor, etc. This would allow for a lot of different combination choices when it comes to armor. I don’t recall in Everquest anyone wearing specific sets in classic. People had a lot if different pieces of armor on aside from the standard stuff like cloth, leather, chain, and plate. Once you got something that was dropped off a named mob you usually used that instead. Many people got their pieces from the auction house.


    In terms of mounts I guess that is personal opinion. When you play games like World of Warcraft or Elder Scrolls Online you see people riding all over the place in mounts. World of Warcraft is a good example with its flying mounts. There is basically no travel in that game because you can get places so fast and so safely. That kind of destroys the adventure IMO. Even standard mounts remove the uniqueness of certain class spells Spirit of the Wolf that makes people run faster. I’d personally rather not see it.


    This post was edited by UnknownQuantity at December 30, 2016 10:39 AM PST
    • 284 posts
    December 30, 2016 10:46 AM PST

    Gurt I feel like I should clarify my "few mounts" statement. I think your examples are fine (assuming said animals existed in the world of Terminus), my concern is more along the lines of the garbage that games like WoW or FFXIV or Rift and others produce. Once you start getting too fanciful and impractical it just begins to look silly in my opinion. It makes sense that each race would have found means of assisted travel outside of magic, but that doesn't mean that the Ogres invented a flying garbage can or some other such nonsense. That's all I meant. If there were 100s of breeds of horses based on real life I would be perfectly happy.

    As it is, Brad has stated that mounts have equipment (ex: horseshoes, saddlebags, barding), which I think goes a long way towards customization in a way that actually makes sense. You can have fanciful horse barding while still just having horses and it works well. I'd prefer to see such things, instead of zooming around on a motorcycle or other such immersion-breaking claptrap.

    • 89 posts
    December 30, 2016 11:37 AM PST

    UnknownQuantity said:

    In terms of the class specific armor it will make a difference. One difference is that people will have to figure out what items are best for their class.

    There is no guaruntee that class armor will be best in class.  In many games that use it it is for a short time and then is quickly outpaced by raid gear.  In some games the class gear are trap options that don't actually help the players be better at their choosen roles.  Players will still need to determine what is Best in Slot.

     

    UnknownQuantity said:

    Another is that not everything will match so it looks more interesting. 

     

    You say not matching is more interesting, I say it's more tacky.  I mean which of these looks cooler?

    http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/7/7e/Orc_Might.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060207104109

    http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll305/chaoswolf1982/WoWstuff/outlandclownsuit.jpg

    Both armor sets are for roughly the same level, on the same race and class.  The first is a class specific set of early raid gear (before it got stupid) while the second is leveling gear that dropped in the first expansion.  The clownsuit is amazingly superior to the raid set.

     

    UnknownQuantity said:

    It also gives the option to not be locked into one set of specific equipment. Depending on how powerful the equipment and equipment progression is there might not be much difference between equipment aside from having a little more damage, and extra effect, a little more armor, etc. This would allow for a lot of different combination choices when it comes to armor.

    You're either wearing best in slot or you aren't.  Peroid.  Saccrificing best in slot gear for sake of appearence is something players do all the time, and the existance or non-existance of class gear will not and cannot change this.  You can still do exactly what you descrbed with class gear, and depending on the itemization and the power scale of the items, class gear could actually encourage this rather than prevent it.

     

    UnknownQuantity said:

    I don’t recall in Everquest anyone wearing specific sets in classic. People had a lot if different pieces of armor on aside from the standard stuff like cloth, leather, chain, and plate. Once you got something that was dropped off a named mob you usually used that instead. Many people got their pieces from the auction house.

    Exactly.  And everquest had class gear.  Lambent armor for bards, Ivy Etched for rangers, Shadowbound, Darkforge, Ro, Crafted, etc.  They even added more class gear with the first few expansions. The class gear was rarely Best in Slot, so you didn't often see it.

     

    UnknownQuantity said:

    In terms of mounts I guess that is personal opinion. When you play games like World of Warcraft or Elder Scrolls Online you see people riding all over the place in mounts. World of Warcraft is a good example with its flying mounts. There is basically no travel in that game because you can get places so fast and so safely. That kind of destroys the adventure IMO. Even standard mounts remove the uniqueness of certain class spells Spirit of the Wolf that makes people run faster. I’d personally rather not see it.

    I mostly agree that mounts if done poorly can ruin the size of a game world, and I can certainly understand the fear of mounts shaking up the desire for certain buffs.  However, mounts when implemented well add to immersion and there's no reason why something like SoW couldn't stack with mounted speed or just be the same or faster than mounted speed.  Especially if there are plenty of mountain areas and sudden sheer cliffs.

     

    Jimmayus said:

    Gurt I feel like I should clarify my "few mounts" statement. I think your examples are fine (assuming said animals existed in the world of Terminus), my concern is more along the lines of the garbage that games like WoW or FFXIV or Rift and others produce. Once you start getting too fanciful and impractical it just begins to look silly in my opinion. It makes sense that each race would have found means of assisted travel outside of magic, but that doesn't mean that the Ogres invented a flying garbage can or some other such nonsense. That's all I meant. If there were 100s of breeds of horses based on real life I would be perfectly happy.

    As it is, Brad has stated that mounts have equipment (ex: horseshoes, saddlebags, barding), which I think goes a long way towards customization in a way that actually makes sense. You can have fanciful horse barding while still just having horses and it works well. I'd prefer to see such things, instead of zooming around on a motorcycle or other such immersion-breaking claptrap.

    That's fair I suppose.  I always liked Vanilla WoW's selection of mounts (one type for each race and a few very rare drops) which were all very well grounded in reality (except mechanostriders), but I agree that the rainbow unicorns and robot pegasi and the undead bears take things about a hundred miles too far.


    This post was edited by Gurt at December 30, 2016 11:40 AM PST
    • 284 posts
    December 30, 2016 11:50 AM PST

    Only thing I dislike about design preferring cohesive sets of armor over variety is that it tends to centralize the design of endgame. Generally speaking it is hard to justify having, for example, a native elven art asthetic ranger gear set dropping in as far-flung places as underwater ruins or in the frozen tundra thousands of miles from elven land.

    It's ok to have like a prestige set, and it might even have some pieces that are legitimately amazing for quite some time, but would prefer it not to be the end-all be all since that stifles variety. I like my life spices.

    • 2419 posts
    December 30, 2016 12:16 PM PST

    The class armor quests were great, perfect really, because of when they happened:  Early enough in the game where you are fully sure of your class, your spell book isn't complete, some skills either missing or not yet capped.  When you were finished you had something which set you apart from all other classes, something which was a point of pride and envy of those not yet finished with theirs.  I fully expect to see class specific armor quests in Pantheon and they will probably occur at just aboutt he same point in the game.

    • 169 posts
    December 30, 2016 12:25 PM PST

    Gurt,

    I think the first set looks better, but I don't think the art design very either looks very good.  The second one has more character though.  :)  We may or may not see better artwork in Pantheon.  So far the artwork looks better than what WoW has.

    One way to avoid having only one best in slot item is to have a variety of different items drop with similar statistics.  For instance you might have the sword of fire damage 2 delay 25 and a chance to proc fire damage.  Then you have the sword of ice damage 2 delay 25 and a chance to proce ice damage.  You could have a variety of one handed weapons with similar statistics.  You could have the same variety for armor.  This would also encourage players to spread out to different areas and explore instead of camping for specific items all the time.  I think you are very set in the era and terminologies of modern MMOs to think outside the box in this instance.

    You didn't really give a response to the negative impact of mounts on the game world and traveling in it.  Mounts make travel to easy.  Limiting them to higher level players doesn't help since everyone will be high level at some point and acquire a mount.  This issue becomes even worse when you add expansions and more levels.  Having SoW stack with mount movement speed doesn't really stop the way it trivializes getting around or that we will eventually see lots of players flying around what is supposed to be a dangerous game world on fast and safe mounts.

    I could see class sets being in the game just for the fun of it.  It doesn't really have an impact on the game if it's not the best gear.  Hopefully it will at least be part of epic quests to make it more difficult to acquire.

     

    • 780 posts
    December 30, 2016 2:12 PM PST

    I have to say that to me, both of those WoW sets look awful.  

     

    Anyway, one of the great things about the first class sets in EverQuest is that while they may not have been best in slot ever, they were good for -someone- of that class at -some- level.  They didn't bond to you and then instantly become garbage once you got something else.  You sold them or traded them and they maintained some value for quite a while because there were always people who would rather buy the pieces than quest for them.  When gear is tradeable it really adds to the appeal of having sets like this in the game (for me at least).  I think it's mostly having gear bind to you and also having level restrictions that keep gear from being meaningful and memorable in games.  Finding upgrades too easily and frequently also contributes to the issue.

     

    I agree that maybe it doesn't make sense for a piece of the Ranger set to drop from a mob across the world in underwater ruins...but it's reasonable to me to have the quest giver tell you he needs you to go retrieve some item from that mob in order for him to make the piece you want.

    • 89 posts
    December 30, 2016 3:37 PM PST

    UnknownQuantity said:

    The second one has more character though.  :)

    Gonna have to agree to disagree here.  Second set just looks like random garbage from an armor store bin to me.

    UnknownQuantity said:

    One way to avoid having only one best in slot item is to have a variety of different items drop with similar statistics.  For instance you might have the sword of fire damage 2 delay 25 and a chance to proc fire damage.  Then you have the sword of ice damage 2 delay 25 and a chance to proce ice damage.  You could have a variety of one handed weapons with similar statistics.  You could have the same variety for armor.  This would also encourage players to spread out to different areas and explore instead of camping for specific items all the time.  I think you are very set in the era and terminologies of modern MMOs to think outside the box in this instance.

    That doestn't really solve the best in slot problem though. In you example you moved from having 1 sword to being best in slot to having three or four swords share that distinction unless you're fighting an enemy with low or high resists to a specific element.  If there is an item (or a small group of items) that can be seen as hands down better than the other choices, then best in slot exists.  The only ways around this is to remove all superfluous stats from items:  armor gives only armor, weapons give only damage; or to have every stats combination that exists on a particular peice of gear be duplicated dozens of times with different graphics.  The first is boring and the second is expensive to code and frusterating for players to keep track of.

    UnknownQuantity said:

    You didn't really give a response to the negative impact of mounts on the game world and traveling in it.  Mounts make travel to easy.  Limiting them to higher level players doesn't help since everyone will be high level at some point and acquire a mount.  This issue becomes even worse when you add expansions and more levels.  Having SoW stack with mount movement speed doesn't really stop the way it trivializes getting around or that we will eventually see lots of players flying around what is supposed to be a dangerous game world on fast and safe mounts.

    Thats because mounts only make travel easy when developers get lazy. Fall damage + crazy speed = death as anyone who is or has played with a high level bard in EQ can attest.  So stacking speed buffs in a game with any sort of cliff or ravine could be a recipee for disaster.  Additionally, in vanilla WoW getting hit had a chance to knock you off your mount with a speed debuff, getting hit with CC would always knock you off your mount.  Combining a similar system with unlimited aggro tethers for Pantheon would mean that anyone who haddn't stuck to the roads would very likely train themselves.  Also, SoW need not be slower than mount speed.  If SoW is faster and they don't stack then players will still want SoW.

    The entire point of mounts is to make travel easier for players who have jumped therough the hoops to have them.  Saying it makes travel "too easy" is subjective.  In my mind mounts don't make travel too easy because porting exists.  A druid in EQ can port himself near anywhere he wants to be and give himself a speed buff to get the rest of the way there.  I know that you're thinking, "Well, that's only two classes," but if you have a friend that plays one of those classes then a quick tell is often all you need for all your travel needs.  Hell, on P99 there's a guild of druids and wizards called Dial-a-Port that offers a tip based porting service, and since they can port, they come pick you up!  Similar structures will likely arise in Pantheon so long as porting exists (it likely will), players can search for each other via guild (or someone hosts a webpage), and private messages exist.  As such I have no problem giving everyone a method of slightly faster travel that can't be used in combat.

    • 169 posts
    December 30, 2016 4:16 PM PST

    Gurt I have commented in another thread about items, but I do feel that item's shouldn't give attribute bonuses.  I feel this because it artificially inflates players stats and eventually racial differences become pointless.  It also makes players to strong eventually.  Then there is a huge gap between the high level and low level players.  In Vanilla EQ there were some major differences between the races in terms of attributes.  A Orgre or Troll was the best tank for instance because they had the highest HP and Strength.  They also could bash with two handed weapons.

    I do remember mounts in Vanilla World of Warcraft and you are correct about that.  It was easy to fall of your horse.  That doesn't change the fact that getting around is a bit too easy.  If getting a SoW or a port from a Druid or Wizard is a better option then why have the mounts at all? Just let the players ask someone for a SoW or a port.  Let there be interdependence between the player classes.  Players relying on eachother for utility spells is fairly nonexistent in most MMO's these days.  This game is the chance to have something different.

    • 1618 posts
    December 30, 2016 4:39 PM PST

    The problem with expecting gear to match is that the devs may think this set all works together stat-wise, but then players will determine different pieces can be swapped in to increase a certain aspect. The devs may plan a BiS set to be all matching, but it will get mish mashed by the players anyways.