Based on the livestream, it waas noted that we will have a limited set of abilities to chose from at a time (as opposed to having 20 hotbars all over the place with a ton of abilities).
I'm in favor of a limit, but there's a suggestion that I would really, really like to see implemented.
In a lot of games that do limited abilities, it normally comes down to X amount of skills available at a time. The problem with this system is that it guts the ability to use interesting abilities that are not exactly super powerful, or has a significant delay. This is because you have a few "must have" abilities, and by the time you're almost out of room...there is just never any room left to pick up "fun" abilities or "long cooldown but situational" abilities. There's a lot of fun things you COULD do, but it's put to the backburner to make room for more "useful" abilities that aren't as situational.
Instead, I propose the following:
Instead of having X amount of ability slots, create X amount slot types.
In general, each ability gets classified as one of the following
Low cooldown
Medium cooldown
Long cooldown
Situational
Vanity\Fun
etc...
You'll get X amount of limited slots for each catagory. That way, you'll always have room for some of those situational abilities that you would otherwise never be able to put on your ability bar. That really awesome spell that you can never use since it's once per hour, if not day? Well, now you actually can equip it, as it wouldn't "eat" a normal MMO's simple "X amount of slots" style.
Overall, you'd be balancing a player's ability output based on them having a variety of cooldowns and situational spells instead of a blanket "10 slots" that always have to be filled with "optimal in most situations" abilities which don't allow for abilities that cover situational situations.
It'd be a lot more fun to be able to use situational and fun abilities without it hurting us.
I see what you are saying but part of being a good player is knowing when situational abilities are useful or not. If you let everyone always have all of their situational abilities up all the time then you remove the skill of knowing what abilities you will need in any given situation. EverQuest went for years with only 8 spells being able to be memmed at any time and 99% of people coped fine even when they were raiding.
I hate games that end up with 4 or 5 hot bars full of different skills that you can click whenever you want. It just removes all the skill of knowing what abilities you need at any given time. Please don't turn Pantheon into a button masher like so many other MMOs that are out there at the moment.
I don't think the OP is suggesting that we get overloaded with abilities on our bar. I think he is just trying to come up with an idea to prevent hearing "Every warrior keeps abilities a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, and i on their bar, DUH". Unfortunately I think this idea would just lead to more restriction. Your 7th slot now can't be any one of the 100 abilities you have, but it can only be one of 10 abilities tagged as "situational". If, from a balancing standpoint, this allows the developers to more accurately balance all the "situational" abilities against one another, then your idea wins hands down. I just don't think that it's likely to play out that nicely. I appreciate that you suggested this though, since there's a chance it could work well. Unless all the ability mechanics and synergies are built around this theme, then it will likely not work.
Avoiding a meta of some sort is practically impossible. If it doesn't arise through ability use, it will arise through itemization. If not itemization, strategy.
I don't think it's necessarily harmful to allow players to develop metas based on the tools available to them, as long as it doesn't become stagnant. Nobody wants to play the same meta for years and years.
Whether or not all abilities are available is kind of irrelevant, in my opinion. The opportunity to optimize play will always be there, although it'll be marginally more prominent with restrictions on the available abilities, just due to planning ahead.
I also prefer to have the choice to mem whichever spell I like in any slot. I may not have a certain spell memmed often, but it's knowing that a spell is approprate or needed for a situation and memming it ahead of time (instead of another spell that you -do- use more frequently) that's fun for me.
I dig it up since it become a topic of conversations on streams after the latest dev stream. I hate (almost) unlimited skill bars - but I do not like very limited access to skills either. I've heard many voices that say that having extremally limited skills to choose from is good for tactical/strategic aspect of the game - and I agree - PARTLY! It forces players to make very thoughtful PREPARATIONS for next fight (unless there are couple of meta skills that you want/need on your bar regardless of situation), but at the same time it decreases our tactical options DURING a fight - sure we still need to be mindful of timing, surrounding etc. but we no longer need to think WHICH skill should we use now in most cases (with the exception of interrupts and alike) - since during a fight most of our abilities will be frequently on the CD - usually we will fire next one available. With the slower combat that Pantheon offers I think it's important to make (and be able to make) meaningful decisions both outside of combat and during one. Saying that I think having 2 OUT OF COMBAT bars for buffs and ulitily (or abilities that we initiate combat with) which would transition to 2 BATTLE bars as soon as we are engaged in combat would be perfect solution.
I hate ability bloat in MMO's more than anything else. One thing I loved about EQ was that my abilities were capped so I wasn't expected to have every random once in a month use ability. I would be okay with a some sort of split based on type... but saying have 5 targeted abilities and 5 buffs is just more restrictive then just giving me 10 slots for any use.
BamBam said: I would not mind if the bar get a few more slots, but it depends on the actual amount of abilities there wll be avilable for each class in total.
Definitely. But it is my hope that we will have plenty of different abilities to choose from, so there will always be some that simply won't make it even if they are really good.
Just don't have a limit on hotbars, solved. There will always be a "best" set of skills to use, rather than swapping skills all the time (which isn't fun, right?). Having to pick between a 'might use this' and a 'probably would use this' ability isn't exactly fun or lead to dynamic game play. Class design, encounter (npc's) design, environment/dungeon design, & combat mechanics are what make it challenging (and fun).
Enitzu said:Agree with Crom. Having to be selective with your space forces you to know what you are heading into. If you can have everything available all the time then there is no planning needed.
This is soooo stupid to me. Even when Joppa first mentioned it.
Once you learn an ability or skill, never should there be a time when that skill or ability isn't available to you.
I go swimming, but somone is choking on food. Sorry dude, I only planned for CPR not choking. Although I know the himelyck, guess I can't use it.
I go hiking, and I get attacked by a mountain lion. Guess I'm dead, because I only prepared for an ankle sprain.
Dive my car to get gas, but get a flat time...welp, guess I'm fk'd.
Kittik said:Enitzu said:Agree with Crom. Having to be selective with your space forces you to know what you are heading into. If you can have everything available all the time then there is no planning needed.This is soooo stupid to me. Even when Joppa first mentioned it.
Once you learn an ability or skill, never should there be a time when that skill or ability isn't available to you.
I go swimming, but somone is choking on food. Sorry dude, I only planned for CPR not choking. Although I know the himelyck, guess I can't use it.
I go hiking, and I get attacked by a mountain lion. Guess I'm dead, because I only prepared for an ankle sprain.
Dive my car to get gas, but get a flat time...welp, guess I'm fk'd.
i really agree with this tbh, but at the same time, the average player isn't going to have the apm or reactions as other players.
you know humans are very strange. they are enthralled by super high skill elite play, however, don't want to be seen as inferior to another. from a community aspect, we should cherish those that become exceptional, yet we hinder their growth. we go back to the discussion of inclusion vs exclusion.
in a way the las12 brings more people to the table. many games end up simplifying gameplay so we don't end up with super niche games like karuta where the barrier to entry is so high that very few become interested in the game.
i think if they are going to do las12, you streamline all the classes so no one gets extra bars. then no one can complain. i would have been happier with 36+ keybinds, however, i don't want to play by myself because the gap for high level pvp and above average pvp is extremely steep.
First off, hotbars is not the same as ability/spell count. EQ1 let you only have 8 spells memorized at any one time, but you could have up to 10 10-slot hotbars to fill with pretty much anything you wanted...except for more than 8 spells. You could drop bags into those slots, create macros, put items with right-click effects, and whatever abilitys you had (like kick, bash, usable AA abilities, etc).
What we've seen so far in we'll have 12 spell/ability slots. They could have us 100 12-slot hotbars and we'll still just have those 12 spells/abilities avaiable at any one time...and that is perfectly fine.
Honestly I do not see the need for this.
I remember in EQ where meditating to replenish mana meant sitting and reading your magic book.
A similar system could be used for "readying" abilities. You could have a menu to open and choose your new ability for your hotbar. Drag the icon to the hotbar and your character could do a cool little animation and boom your ability is ready to use.
Depending on the ability would depend on how long it would take to "ready" it, from instant to whatever is deemed appropriate.
Another system that could be used either in addition to or in place of the above would be hotbar replacement by item. Say you have 10 hotbar slots. By equipping your Axe of Sharpness you would automatically replace slot 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 with your pre-chosen abilties (mayhaps kept in your book of abilites and could be changed at will).
If both were implemented you could prepare with what you think you will need but should you run into something you did not forsee you could take a moment and ready an ability.
This discussion has happened a few times. To me, it comes down to balancing planning and dynamism, strategy and variety and which you prefer. It's one of a very few things I disagree with VR about (though, of course, it isn't finalised yet).
Limited ability slot systems lead to frustration for me. Any skill needed rarely would be used even more rarely (or never) because you just don't load them up unless you are absolutely sure they are about to be needed. And if you *do* know you need them, it's hardly a big strategic choice to load them. You are just choosing what good ability *not* to load in their favour. All very negative.
It is very frustrating to get new skills and know you will possibly never use them, even if you come across the rare situation they would be useful, because you never ordinarily have them loaded.
I vastly prefer the challenge of learning all my skills and having to choose from them all appropriately in a pressured (combat) situation, to getting into a combat and realising you would have a much better time with some abilities you don't have loaded.
Having said that, if the skills are designed well, you won't need 100 slots, but 12 is too few.
VR need to take a good hard look at this idea and decide if the 'planning' related to a limited toolbar is worth the frustration of having skills that you've earned and need be unavailable. There is still plenty of planning and strategy in combat without limiting variety and utility (and some would say 'fun').
Also, designing encounters to be challenging with limited toolbars has got to be much harder. If they design them with non-optimal toolbars in mind, they will tend to be too easy for those that are prepared/experienced and if they design them with optimal toolbars in mind they will tend to be too hard and stifle exploration and risk-taking. To design them knowing exactly what skills people have available has got to be much easier and better?
@disposalist
Honestly I agree with you 100%. My post above was suggestions for a system that was already decided to be limited hotbars.
I am an old fart that no longer enjoys twitch combat or mash 20 buttons on rotating cooldowns to maximize dps. That being said, I think one of my favorite hotbar setups is in Repopulation. In that game You have 12 slot hotbars. In an interface options menu you can choose to show from 1 to 4 Horizontal hotbars, and from 0 to 2 vertical hotbars. You can also choose to show keys bound to the slots, hide unused slots, and auto hide. In the main window on each hotbar is an icon you can click to bring up a small window with options to lock/unlock, increase size, decrease size, open new, and close bar. Also on each hotbar is a number with a small arrow above and below it to rotate between 10 sets of hotbars. Also if you put at least the first few abilities all of the same weapon type the game automatically will switch your main hotbar to the setup relating to that weapon.
The only improvement I would suggest on this is for the game not to automatically associate a hotbar with a weapon or armor type, but allow players to physically associate items with hotbars.
I find in combat even though I have 20 weapon abilities, several shield abilites, several armor abilities, numerous offensive and defensive abilties plus situation abilties and buff type abilities using all 10 hotbars is not really overwhelming. I only have 5 active with one being rare stuff like teleporting home, detect traps, diplomacy stuff that you really only use like once a session or even once every two or three sessions and the four main hotbars I really only use like maybe 10 on a regular basis but the others I use situationally and it doesnt bother me at all having so many options. And again this is coming from a 50+ year old gamer that does not enjoy twitch or smash to win combat.
I remember logging (after a long time) back into EQ2 and having an insane amount of abilities that I totally forgot how to use. But I do remember watching the hotbars more than the world around me.
In the last live stream they did say maybe have a couple slots for item clicks and buff, so... 12 then maybe 2 for items and 2 for buffs.
Knowing your foe and area and planning ahead is better. But, I would consider spells different than abilities. Classic D&D Wizards could only memorize so many spells a day. But they were powerful spells and they could swing the battle in your favor.
I would stick with limiting the of abilities/spells you have up at one time. You are dealing with a world with climates, atmospheres and colored magic. (with the understanding that your abilities will react with other affects going on around you) So the idea of pick the right spells and abilities is part of the fun.
its a bit janky to discuss this because everyone has different definitions:
ability number not to be confused with action slots
abilities not to be confused with spells(which mean the same thing, but for different classes?)
buffs(30 min duration plus) not to be confused with buffs(less that 1 min duration)
let's just say las12 when referring to the amount of hotbar slots we are allocated, which is 12.
i would not break down the las12 to have 2 for long buffs, 2 for short buffs, 1 for vanity/fun, etc etc.
it's already very limiting for healers to operate with las12(if you're wondering why, good healers will most likely want to downrank heals)
let players put what they want on their bars so that we have more power in our hands.
with that being said, finicking with las12 can be tedious(this is from a healer perspective. i imagine tanks and ccers will groan a bit too)
i'm never going to put ooc resurrection on my bar because that's a wasted slot. everytime someone dies i have to slap this on my bar and cast it, then take it off.
i'm going to have a setup for trash mobs (1 max rank hot, 3 for basic heal-down ranking-, 1 for combo heal, 1 OH SH* heal, 4 for short strong buffs, 2 utility spells)
i'm going to have another for bursty fights (1 max rank hot, 2 for basic healing-lowest and hight rank-, 1 combo healing, 3 OH SH* heal, 5 short strong buffs might have to chop one for a utility spell)
i'm going to have a 3rd setup for long fights (2 hots-downrank, 5 basic healing-downrank, 1 combo healing, 1 oh sh* heal, 2 strong buff maybe 1 so i can have 2 utility spells)
i'm going to have one for pvp: due to the nature of pvp, this will probably change quite a bit so yea.
there's pros and cons to the las12. inclusion vs exclusion. las12 excludes high apm play, but inclusive to those with low apm play. predertimined/planning inclusion, twitch action/reaction exclusion. excludes individual prowess, includes collective play.
I would like to see an LAS12 system where the abilities you choose for your LAS12 are usable without penalty, while most other abilities are usable with a penalty specific to the ability. Long duration buffs and specifically situational abilities (gate, teleport, bind, ooc rez, etc.) would be have no penalty. So you would choose the 12 abilities that you plan to use most on any given encounter, but you could also certainly branch out beyond this set.
If a warrior didn't put taunt on their LAS12 could still taunt, but the cooldown would be 3x as long and drain a bunch of stamina.
A cleric who didn't put their instant heal on their LAS12 could still use it, but it would cost 2x as much mana.
A shaman who didn't have their pet summon on their LAS12 would decrease their pet's strength.
You could kind of see this as a soft specialization rather than a true limited action system. I have no idea if this would work out or be terrible, but I'm not a game designer so I don't have to worry about that :).
disposalist said: Any skill needed rarely would be used even more rarely (or never) because you just don't load them up unless you are absolutely sure they are about to be needed. And if you *do* know you need them, it's hardly a big strategic choice to load them. You are just choosing what good ability *not* to load in their favour. All very negative.It is very frustrating to get new skills and know you will possibly never use them, even if you come across the rare situation they would be useful, because you never ordinarily have them loaded.
I vastly prefer the challenge of learning all my skills and having to choose from them all appropriately in a pressured (combat) situation, to getting into a combat and realising you would have a much better time with some abilities you don't have loaded.
Such Truth!!!
Also, I'm against global cool downs. Just make Mana and Stamina matter more.
If I wanna kick Hilary Clinton, I should be able to kick as fast as I can until I'm tired.
Interesting thought.
My Chief concern would be forcing players to have to pick certain skill types in order to play effectively. Example: I may not like any of the CD based skills on a particular class, or perhaps only like one, but if 3 of my slots are slated only for CD skills, then I'm losing out on a few skill slots because I don't fit their concept of skill selection.
or what If I like using 7 CD skills and I can only use 2 now?
Or what if a class is designed around CD based skills (like a heavy healing class), and only has slots for 3 of them at max? and vice versa?
Controlling skill types in slots only really works if you keep the same amount of generic slots and then add more slots for other skill types. which in turn forces them to balance around more available skills, and then in turn forces players to fill said skill slots, which forces developers to make more skills of those type for each class to give players more choice...sounds like a very vicious circle.
I'd rather just see perhaps 1 or 2 extra generic slots and leave it at that. Or provide us with multiple loadout bars that can be switched outside of combat. That way you can go with a skill setup for trash groups, as an example, and then one specifically for bosses, or even have skill loadouts tailored to specific difficult encounters. Our group is going to fight a terrible foe, Baen, the ice dragon from the north. I could set up a skill bar with some skills that protect against cold, or do extra daamge against cold monsters, but then keep my standard skill bar for dealing with encounters along the way.
i think we need to maintain the gcd. i'd probably expand the gcd even more. macros or anything similar that eases the input or rotation of abilities/spells i'm very much against.
i've always thought how silly it was to pop 5 instant cast cooldowns simultanously.
so basic spells/abilities should put everything on 1sec gcd
medium tier spells/abilities(something like a 1 min cooldown) should tax gcd 1.5 sec
epic skills should tax the gcd 2 secs
wow is great example of what happens when i remove gcd.
interrupts, instant casts and decision making became a joke.
literally just smash buttons without consequence of motion.
just to draw parallels to other games:
fighting games- there is an animation wind up(cast time like a hadoken for sfv), animation locked period(gcd) and a cooldown period(can't cast another hadoken until other hadoken doesn't exist)
shooting games- instant cast bolt action sniper rifle trigger pull, then there is recoil(gcd), cooldown period(how humanly possible it is for me to reset the bolt line up the shot and pull the trigger again)
this puts way more emphasis not on just resource management, but timing. i mean if i'm going to be limited to las12, i want something else to show some skill.