Just wanted to discuss the Meditation skill/ability a bit.
Obviously I'm used to the EQ way of sitting to meditate and understand there were probably some limitations in the distant past around this being the easiest way to perform this function from a coding standpoint. That being said, and after having watched the december video, would meditation be possible from a more engaged position? For instance, the casters all sitting around watching the tanks fight really isn't the "immersion" you'd expect to get from a story being told of an adventure.
I understand that its a slow paced adventure and the time is intended for communication, but sitting just seems... off. Would the possibility be there for meditation to be from a standing position but perhaps more slow arm and leg movements or positioned arm and legs. Still impossing no movement with a self impossed root as an example, which undestandably sitting forces, but finding a way to not have 3 people fighting for their lives and 3 people sitting around watching them do that.
Not really looking for a way to change the time required to gain mana but how to enhance the immersion and be different about that approach.
Really I'm just looking to start a discussion... Thoughts?
Basically it's about the meditation stance. Does it have to be sitting? Does it offer a better look when not? I agree with you, sitting during combat does look a little different these days. It would not bother me at all if they changed it somewhat... even if it was just to take a knee.... something that looked a little more ready, and less relaxed.
A buddy and I were talking about this while watching the stream on Friday. I'm used to the sitting from playing EQ1 and P99, but I agree, it is a bit strange nowadays. It just doesn't feel right. Maybe use some sort of toggled stance (Focus) for in-combat med/regen while sitting (Rest) is for out of combat? It would be easier to apply a different animation to it this way. We can't forget that sitting used to increase health regen too, so it's not just a caster thing.
What I would like to see in terms of mana regen is more like
~ when no combat actions are being taken (walking would not count as action), you regen mana as if ooc
~ regen mana at 3 times the normal rate when sitting around a campfire. (campfire's being some type of skill. Maybe profession based, foraging maybe, or ranger/druid type spell that adds warm for frigid climates)
The days of sitting are a bit out dated. I mean if we are simply walking through a field am I exhausting myself somehow? Sure over long periods you would be but when comparing walking to combat the walk is more of a rest/recouperate time. Sitting around a campfire is relaxing. It should, imo, give some benefit to hp/mana regen. This is ofc if we are talking immersion.
This is one of the biggest complaints I've heard from people who watched the stream, and are open and interested in Pantheon. I'm curious if this is something that is being looked at, or if they'll just be rolling out the old "sit and med while in combat" system from EQ. I never had a problem with that system, but I can see how people that are new to this style of game could be put off by this.
The idea of having three possible states of mana regen seems like it could add a little more depth to mana regen:
Standing: Slowest form of mana regen, and you're probably losing mana from being engaged - You are fighting and/or casting as an active participant.
Kneeling: Middle ground on mana regen - Would be a position you could cast from, but it makes you generate more aggro and you're immobile so you're more vulnerable.
Sitting: Fastest form of mana regen - You're effectively out of the combat and can't cast. Generates the most aggro, and you're immobile. It could go as far as to obstruct your sight with your spell book, similar to early vanilla EQ.
There are also options like cannibalize and lich form for specific classes they added additional options. Class abilities seem like they could best solution. It adds depth to the mana classes, as well as helps change the "sit and med" during combat.
Katalyzt said: It could go as far as to obstruct your sight with your spell book, similar to early vanilla EQ.
This is the 1 absolute thing I do not want as a caster. This being in the game would completely cut casters out of my possibilities. Could not stand looking at a book
Enitzu said:Katalyzt said: It could go as far as to obstruct your sight with your spell book, similar to early vanilla EQ.This is the 1 absolute thing I do not want as a caster. This being in the game would completely cut casters out of my possibilities. Could not stand looking at a book
I came into EQ after they patched that out, so I'm not sure what it was like. However, if you're going to give a class the ability to regenerate mana a little faster than normal while in combat, there would have to be some kind of negative adverse effect.
I don't think there should be sitting in combat. I know it was a part of EQ, but I'd rather there be a meditative stance on a cooldown that you can use in combat (with +aggro). Imo, outside of abilities like that and clarity/regen, I don't think sitting while engaged in combat should yield much if any resources. It's actually something and more and more people are commenting on in saying how strange it is to see people sitting down while there is a fight going on.
Dullahan said:I don't think there should be sitting in combat. I know it was a part of EQ, but I'd rather there be a meditative stance on a cooldown that you can use in combat (with +aggro). Imo, outside of abilities like that and clarity/regen, I don't think sitting while engaged in combat should yield much if any resources. It's actually something and more and more people are commenting on in saying how strange it is to see people sitting down while there is a fight going on.
You probably read some of the same posts and comments I came across from people that were seeing Pantheon for the first time. IMO if that was one of the biggest hurdles for the people that were being open minded and resonable to become disenchanted, it could be something that could be changed fairly easily. I'm guessing if the likes of us saw those comments, it has to be on the dev teams radar.
I'm glad you brought it up! I was considering starting a topic of this type, but now you have already.
I think having a very slow mechanic can work out very well, but it would help me get on board if it just had a bit more going on. It's obviously just my opinion, but even though meditation is about clearing your mind and literally have NOTHING going on, you can still believe that your character is turning their brain off without doing it yourself. In order to seek a mechanic that works for people, I wanted to present some general concepts that I think are relevant and then some example mechanics using those concepts.
Variables: These are things that can be used to provide choice when meditating in order to provide a compelling mechanic.
Total time of meditation - Just the pure measured total time between sitting down and standing up (or however it manifests). This could be used to create a mechanic that favors longer meditation times and really asks players to push to the limit (and perhaps lean on their fellow players) in order to reap the maximum benefits.
Time before turning off meditation - This is, in effect, stating one's intention to finish meditating. If you see that your tank is now down to 50% health and you're going to need to heal him 10s from now, then there could be a button to say "initiate the process to end meditation". This could introduce a mechanic that requires meditation time management and planning. If abruptly broken out of meditation, there could be a consequence.
Planned total time of meditation - This is a prediction/gamble made by the player about how long they expect that they will be able to meditate. This can introduce a risk vs. reward mechanic where a player is granted increased regeneration for longer meditation times, but is penalized if the stated time is not achieved.
Depth of meditation - This is, like the planned total time, a prediction/gamble that the player makes on how much freedom they have to meditate. Each level of meditation could build on the previous, successively increasing the regeneration rates, but can come at a cost if broken out of deep meditation.
Mechanics: These are just the two mechanics that I think could work, but obviously not polished and are based on opinion.
Deepening Meditation - Every 5s one spends meditating, the benefits of meditating increase by 10% (total time spend meditating). This rewards players for putting themselves in a position where they can start meditating. If you heal everyone to full and tell your group to use their cooldowns, then you can reach very high regeneration rates, but requires that you lean on your teammates. For larger groups, this could introduce a long-cycle rotation. This mechanic is minimally taxing to the player (more taxing than the current version though), but still introduces some thought.
Deep/Shallow Meditation - When in a state of shallow meditation the player has two buttons they can press. "Deep Meditation" is an button option where the player spends 5s to increase meditation regeneration rate by 50% , but comes at a cost. If abruptly broken out of deep meditation the player has a 50% increased base chance to fizzle for 10s. "End meditation" is the other button option given to the player, to cleanly removes the player from the meditative state (5s to end shallow, 10s to end deep). If shallow meditation is abruptly ended, the player has a 25% increased base chance to fizzle for 10s. This would introduce a moderately taxing time management mechanic. The player has to estimate how long they will actually have to meditate and perhaps in a pinch it would be the correct choice to risk it all, break out of deep meditation, and then hope that you won't fizzle.
I really like the EQ1 meditation mechanic, but I agree that the visualization of it is not fitting, and probably wasnt even back then. I really liked the long fights where I as a cleric went out of mana and had to sit as fast as possible after a heal to regen enough mana for the tank and group to survive. The feeling of urgency was just great.
The base mechanic is about getting a higher mana regen, at the cost of a higher threat/aggro level. So whatever lore/visualization we/they can come up to fit that in, Im all in for it.
Some cool suggestions from Ainadak. I'd like to see something of a minigame involve with using abilities or stances to regenerate mana.
They could just make it so when you sit with aggro, you assume a different animation in combat. That way it's more appropriate, but doesn't really change the mechanics if they're happy with allowing greater regeneration rates in combat.
Ainadak said:I'm glad you brought it up! I was considering starting a topic of this type, but now you have already.
I think having a very slow mechanic can work out very well, but it would help me get on board if it just had a bit more going on. It's obviously just my opinion, but even though meditation is about clearing your mind and literally have NOTHING going on, you can still believe that your character is turning their brain off without doing it yourself. In order to seek a mechanic that works for people, I wanted to present some general concepts that I think are relevant and then some example mechanics using those concepts.
Variables: These are things that can be used to provide choice when meditating in order to provide a compelling mechanic.
Total time of meditation - Just the pure measured total time between sitting down and standing up (or however it manifests). This could be used to create a mechanic that favors longer meditation times and really asks players to push to the limit (and perhaps lean on their fellow players) in order to reap the maximum benefits.
Time before turning off meditation - This is, in effect, stating one's intention to finish meditating. If you see that your tank is now down to 50% health and you're going to need to heal him 10s from now, then there could be a button to say "initiate the process to end meditation". This could introduce a mechanic that requires meditation time management and planning. If abruptly broken out of meditation, there could be a consequence.
Planned total time of meditation - This is a prediction/gamble made by the player about how long they expect that they will be able to meditate. This can introduce a risk vs. reward mechanic where a player is granted increased regeneration for longer meditation times, but is penalized if the stated time is not achieved.
Depth of meditation - This is, like the planned total time, a prediction/gamble that the player makes on how much freedom they have to meditate. Each level of meditation could build on the previous, successively increasing the regeneration rates, but can come at a cost if broken out of deep meditation.
Mechanics: These are just the two mechanics that I think could work, but obviously not polished and are based on opinion.
Deepening Meditation - Every 5s one spends meditating, the benefits of meditating increase by 10% (total time spend meditating). This rewards players for putting themselves in a position where they can start meditating. If you heal everyone to full and tell your group to use their cooldowns, then you can reach very high regeneration rates, but requires that you lean on your teammates. For larger groups, this could introduce a long-cycle rotation. This mechanic is minimally taxing to the player (more taxing than the current version though), but still introduces some thought.
Deep/Shallow Meditation - When in a state of shallow meditation the player has two buttons they can press. "Deep Meditation" is an button option where the player spends 5s to increase meditation regeneration rate by 50% , but comes at a cost. If abruptly broken out of deep meditation the player has a 50% increased base chance to fizzle for 10s. "End meditation" is the other button option given to the player, to cleanly removes the player from the meditative state (5s to end shallow, 10s to end deep). If shallow meditation is abruptly ended, the player has a 25% increased base chance to fizzle for 10s. This would introduce a moderately taxing time management mechanic. The player has to estimate how long they will actually have to meditate and perhaps in a pinch it would be the correct choice to risk it all, break out of deep meditation, and then hope that you won't fizzle.
All this seems way too cumbersome. Sorry, not meaning to belittle the thought you have obviously given this =(
I agree that sitting in combat does seem silly. While I would accept it without issue because of my Norrathian history, I can absolutely see how new players would be put off by it.
One question I cannot remember the answer to - how does stamina regenerate? Does it just come back naturally when not using combat arts or does the melee class have to stop attacking? If someone can answer this for me definitively I would appreciate.
Also, it seems to me that the biggest thing that would change if we were allowed to regen mana just while standing and not casting spells (perhaps having to remember to hit a med key) is the +aggro that occurs when sitting. Are there any simple ideas that we could come up with to keep the +aggro mechanic (if it makes sense to do so, which I am not convinced of) while allowing a standing med?
I am against any ideas that include differing med speeds for standing, kneeling, sitting because, honestly, everyone would still just sit to get the best regen rate....changing nothing. Also, I really really dont want to see any meditation mini games introduced.
Obviously allowing a moving med would make kiting super OP.
I dont 100% agree that, as a caster, I need to "med" to refill my mana pool. Here is a random thought - perhaps a sitting med could charge up in game time that your character's mana pool fills while standing still in combat. For every say 5 minutes of "meding" time (actually whether in or out of combat) your character is able to refill mana at a medding rate simply by standing still and not casting for perhaps 20 minutes. Totally arbitrary numbers of course.
Just tossing around ideas that came to me on the fly.
~MINX
Sitting to meditate didn't just have the negative of being higher on the agro scale, but also since you were sitting any attack on you automatically hit and automatically did maximum damage. Just stating there were other negatives to sitting while meditating.
While the idea of sitting during combat to meditate doesn't really bother me, it would be really nice to have some other mechanics or animations that were effectively the same, but looked different. I'd be perfectly happy with something as simple as the way you sit changed during combat to show that you were perfectly aware you were in a precarious situation.
Guess im the weird one who doesnt find it odd that you should have to sit to rest/meditate.....I mean if you look around the world at people who meditate for relaxation or to reach a level of subconsciousness, they are almost always sitting, the point is to relax. Something like the following makes sense as an alternative to normal sitting, if thats whats really desired.
As someone who played a Wizard during the day of having to stare at the spell book during meditation, I would have to say ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! That was one thing that really should be left in the past.
Riply said:Guess im the weird one who doesnt find it odd that you should have to sit to rest/meditate.....I mean if you look around the world at people who meditate for relaxation or to reach a level of subconsciousness, they are almost always sitting, the point is to relax. Something like the following makes sense as an alternative to normal sitting, if thats whats really desired.
As someone who played a Wizard during the day of having to stare at the spell book during meditation, I would have to say ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! That was one thing that really should be left in the past.
Also notice in the picture the only thing near him is... nothing. The likelyhood I depend on this guy to get up and help me is 0%
If they found a way to increase mana regen in combat, through varying stance options, then they could make the entire system more involved and dynamic. The deeper you go into your stances, the more mana you regen. However, the heavier the mana regen is per stance, the more risk the caster incurs. The risk is could be anything from higher aggro to longer cast times, or any combination of effects. The sky is the limit.
I am also in agreement that mini-games for mana regen is a bad idea; but adding a few variations to the regen mana mechanic would do away with the basic sit/stand mechanic. It could, realistically, be as simple as having three or four options to switch between. Paramount in a system like that would be - as the regen gets higher, the greater the negative effect, or risk, to the caster becomes. The highest level of regen would have to have an adverse enough effect that it keeps it from being the default position.
Ultimately, the animation you see on the screen is just cosmetic. They can easily just add another graphic to the act, or varying acts, of “meditation”. Sitting and standing are really just the caster version of stances. I see no reason it can’t be a little deeper.
Also lol @
Dwyvyrn said:Also notice in the picture the only thing near him is... nothing. The likelyhood I depend on this guy to get up and help me is 0%
kelenin said:Sitting to meditate didn't just have the negative of being higher on the agro scale, but also since you were sitting any attack on you automatically hit and automatically did maximum damage. Just stating there were other negatives to sitting while meditating.
Aha, thanks for that! Like I said was just thinking out loud. Would hate to see one component of the game turn off potential players.
Dwyvyrn said:Also notice in the picture the only thing near him is... nothing. The likelyhood I depend on this guy to get up and help me is 0%
Lol, but it is somewhat of the point, in a meditative state, I would not expect the person to be imediately aware of your needs. I suppose a standing channeling energy annimation idea would work too. As mentioned its all animations that are fluff to take the place of sitting, so if they have time, why not. I'm all about as many annimations as we can get in for various tasks, or lack there of, polish like that can go a long way to making the game come alive.
I think the problem have is more with the sitting rather than the mechanic of the meditation. For maybe meditation in a sitting position is in no way odd, doing it in the middle of combat while your friends are fighting for thier lives is. So I think an alternative animation for meditation would be prefered, one that shows that the character is somewhat alert and focused on the fight still, making these class specific would also be nice, making them be standing is a good start.
Personally I would like to see in combat meditation not be a thing at all, instead have much bigger mana bars that woul deplete slower, but not having a way to regen in combat would still force healers and caster to cast responsibly and intelligently to conserve mana, making the mana bar a bit of a ticking time bomb to some degree. Ofc there would still be mana conserving spells, but instead of something just increasing mana regeneration I would like to see shorter duration spells that help with conservation that can be used tactically.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
When i hear meditation i think sitting. in combat this shouldnt happen, however in combat you will be tired from casting. so taking a knee to rest makes sense. in combat regen should NOT be as fast as out of combat meditation. i can see sitting in between pulls/fights, but kneeling during fights.
