Forums » The Cleric

Cleric Wishlist!

    • 2476 posts
    November 11, 2019 9:51 AM PST

    Dewar said:

    Agree and they should heal.  But their first job should be slows, dots, and buffs.  Not that they should not heal just should not replace a Cleric.  Too many games have started to let everyone heal and some cases heal better then the Cleric.

    No, they are equal healers to cleric as their role is healer, not debuffers/buffers. Not everyone can heal in Pantheon, but classes within the healer role can all do so with parity. The same applies to tanking and tank classes or DPS and dps classes. 

    Too many games have made the terrible mistake of having "best in role" classes to where the challenging or end game content pretty much requires the exclusion of certain classes or bringing the bare minimum just to benefit from the class specific spells while bringing handfuls of another class that shares the role (i.e. bring 1 druid & shaman but 5 clerics). 

     

    Really would be a mistake to make the game such that Cleric, Warrior, Rogue/Wizard are the best in role classes.

    • 1331 posts
    November 12, 2019 1:08 PM PST

    Iksar said:

     

    Really would be a mistake to make the game such that Cleric, Warrior, Rogue/Wizard are the best in role classes.

    We completely disagree on this one Iksar.  At first I thought you left out a "not" in that sentence but reading closer you really think those classes shouldn't be the best at their role.

    I'm sure you know 2 things...players will make generalizations about who is "best" regardless of balance. 

    Also, you can still have alternative classes who are "best" in a specific encounter who aren't considered the "best" at their role.  < That is the direction VR is going.

    Having balance where no classes are the "best" in their role is not diserable.  Having classes that are the "best" is needed for distinction between the classes otherwise there is to much similarity.

    • 2476 posts
    November 12, 2019 2:03 PM PST

    philo said:

    We completely disagree on this one Iksar.  At first I thought you left out a "not" in that sentence but reading closer you really think those classes shouldn't be the best at their role.

    I'm sure you know 2 things...players will make generalizations about who is "best" regardless of balance. 

    Also, you can still have alternative classes who are "best" in a specific encounter who aren't considered the "best" at their role.  < That is the direction VR is going.

    Having balance where no classes are the "best" in their role is not diserable.  Having classes that are the "best" is needed for distinction between the classes otherwise there is to much similarity.

    Classes within a role that are "best" or excel by a small but notable margin vs.  X/Y/or Z? Sure. But hands down clear "best" in a very notable way? No. Maybe for a game entirely centered around raiding/massive groups of players, but in a group focused game that would be awful design unless the tuning/difficulty of the games challenges are made very lax.

    "Sorry, only cleric can handle healing this encounter. Go kick rocks druid/shaman."

    • 1331 posts
    November 12, 2019 3:51 PM PST

     In your prior post you made a general "best" statement.  In this recent post you made a "best" statement based on a specific encounter.  Those are two different things.

    It is impossible to have challenging content where 3 different healing styles are always balanced for every specific encounter.

    There will definitely be encounters where that Shaman slow/buffs are considered better than the clerics pure healing.  There will definitely be encounters where the druids extra damage + heals is preferred over a clerics pure healing.  There will definitely be encounters where a clerics pure healing is preferred over the other two.

    Players are always going to err on the side of least resistance.  If the encounter is challenging and one of the 3 healing styles is considered preferable you can 100% bet that class will be chosen first at the expense of the other...and that is by design.  Don't think of that as a bad thing.  Understand that is how it has to be if there is going to be a variety of challenging content.  That content is designed around the playstyle of a certain class first and foremost.  That is not to say that it will be impossible for another class to fill that role but will one class be considered "best"?  Absolutely on purpose.


    This post was edited by philo at November 12, 2019 5:54 PM PST
    • 2476 posts
    November 13, 2019 2:44 PM PST

    philo said:

     In your prior post you made a general "best" statement.  In this recent post you made a "best" statement based on a specific encounter.  Those are two different things.

    It is impossible to have challenging content where 3 different healing styles are always balanced for every specific encounter.

    There will definitely be encounters where that Shaman slow/buffs are considered better than the clerics pure healing.  There will definitely be encounters where the druids extra damage + heals is preferred over a clerics pure healing.  There will definitely be encounters where a clerics pure healing is preferred over the other two.

    Players are always going to err on the side of least resistance.  If the encounter is challenging and one of the 3 healing styles is considered preferable you can 100% bet that class will be chosen first at the expense of the other...and that is by design.  Don't think of that as a bad thing.  Understand that is how it has to be if there is going to be a variety of challenging content.  That content is designed around the playstyle of a certain class first and foremost.  That is not to say that it will be impossible for another class to fill that role but will one class be considered "best"?  Absolutely on purpose.

    I am saying the gap between healers at any given time has to be rather small, even when one is acting in a preferred/best encounter situation. If it is such that cleric is preferred for x content but it is still entirely doable with a druid or shaman then it should be because they don't fall far behind cleric at all.

    If cleric is clearly much better in an encounter and yet it is still possible to do the encounter with a shaman or druid then I would argue the encounter is tuned to be too simple if using a cleric. 

    • 1331 posts
    November 13, 2019 5:40 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    If cleric is clearly much better in an encounter and yet it is still possible to do the encounter with a shaman or druid then I would argue the encounter is tuned to be too simple if using a cleric. 

      I can think of plenty of examples of a certain class being better for a specific encounter but it is still possible, just more difficult, to do it with another class.  That doesnt necessarily make it easy when using a cleric. 

    The cleric might just be optimal.  It could be very difficult when using a cleric and near impossible unless you have a top 1% player/geared healer of another class.

    Your statement about it being tuned to be to simple is not mutually exclusive.  It can be, sure.  It doesnt have to be.  If it is that is poor design.


    This post was edited by philo at November 13, 2019 5:41 PM PST