Ainadak said:I remember getting buffs from high level players and honestly feeling like there were good people to be found in the end game. I also remember tagging along with a friend for a "super awesome damage-shield farm session" back when I was clueless as to what powerleveling was. It was an absolutely terrible experience that ruined the immersion of a whole zone for me, kind of like finding yourself in a backroom of a party where people are snorting coke.
I'm sorry you had an unpleasant experience.
When I was young, I was in a catastrophic car accident thanks to a driver under the influence. I bear scars that will never fade on my face.
I do not ask for all cars to have speed limiters that will not allow them to go above 35 mph. There are stupid drivers and bad drivers. There are negligent drivers. A year ago, a bad diver ruined my day- year, rather. It was a horrible wreck.
Yet I believe that the good that comes from cars is more important. I don't believe the bad behavior of some should put limiters on all cars.
The ability to make someone "overpowered" for a brief time, thus bringing them memorable and impactful joy outweighs per leveling. One bad experience, er, three, at the hands of bad drivers has not made me call for the abolition or curtailing of cars.
In this case, you had a bad experience, and I think you can see how bad experiences are not always reason to throw the baby out.
Met many friendly clerics and paladins back in the day in EQ. I was an inquisitive ranger and always bit off more than I could chew. "Level 60 ranger WTB a rezz in DL! Guess I can't solo Gore just because I now have my Swiftwind and Earthcaller."
The fun conversations I had with the rezzers that would respond built up many great friendships in-game. They would laugh at me more after asking for another rezz a few minutes later because I thought that their HP buff would change the outome of another solo attempt on Gore.
I also met a lot of great people when I would go to starting zones and buff up all the lowbies with my uber rangerly buffage and SoW.
@Amris
I don't want to give the impression that I'm taking a hard stance on this topic, since it's not one that I'm super passionate about and I would have fun either way. I was just weighing in with my opinion. However, I do feel it necessary to address your argument to clear the air. I'm not trying to say my way is how it has to be, I'm just trying to present arguments to show that it's an opinion based on sound logic.
We have laws against driving under the influence and laws against driving too fast, so your analogy does not provide a rationale for uninhibited freedoms. Undesired actions can be policed after the fact (like a police officer pulling a drunk driver over), in order to provide freedom for those living within the system, but still providing justice. Undesired behaviors can also be mitigated by pre-emptive methods (like preventing carmakers from building beer taps into cars). It is up to VR to determine where they want to fall on freedom vs. restriction. I would like to make it clear that restrictions on power-leveling, either through enforcement/policing of rules/laws or by pre-emptive mechanics, are not inherently misguided. The desire to drive where and how you wish does not entitle one to carte blanche on the roadways. We decide as a society where and how to restrict driving, and VR decides where/how/if to restrict power-levelling.
I understand that your argument was focused more on pre-emptive methods, which do indeed trample on freedoms. Preventing cars from starting until after a breathalizer test is seen by many (including myself) as an overreach against the general population, but I would have no grounds to suggest that someone who wants to standardize car breathalizers would be wrong or that their rationale is faulty.
When it comes to newb buffing, I would like to see some restrictions targetted at the negative behaviors while still trying to maintain the enjoyability and it is my opinion that that is possible. For me, having a buff that allows me to slay my most fearsome enemies, but not letting me gain the full experience for doing so would still be a memorable occasion. For me, the best part of getting a buff by a high level player is witnessing the kindness of the giver, not the rewards gained by my increase in strength.
I get where you're coming from and why as you've explained it thoroughly in this thread. If you're seeking to sway my opinion or that of others, then please do continue to provide arguments as to why, but please be clear as to your intentions. As it stands, it is my impression that you're trying to argue as to why my opinion is wrong or based in faulty logic, which is almost always counter-productive and gets all parties involved to hunker down into their corners.
I do indeed also like babies and believe they should be kept.
Ainadak said:@Amris
[Snip only for brevity]
I get where you're coming from and why as you've explained it thoroughly in this thread. If you're seeking to sway my opinion or that of others, then please do continue to provide arguments as to why, but please be clear as to your intentions. As it stands, it is my impression that you're trying to argue as to why my opinion is wrong or based in faulty logic, which is almost always counter-productive and gets all parties involved to hunker down into their corners.
I do indeed also like babies and believe they should be kept.
I'm hoping the devs will take a serious reconsidered look at this topic / concept of putting power levelers ahead of the immense social gains from buffs. I wouldn't mind a 50 level spread. So no level 80 buff on a levels 1. But I don't like curtailing it beyond that because, as Baz so very eloquently described it, it becomes less memorable when it's not, as some call it, "overpowered" (I don't mind the word, just using as a degree distinction).
It's definitely not personal to you or anyone. I will say again, I find you brilliant and likeable in every way. I have no desire to contest with you, or belittle you, or make you (or anyone) "wrong".
I'm arguing concepts, not people. :)
>I do indeed also like babies and believe they should be kept<
I don't.
See - we can disagree on ANY point.
No I have no ideas that I would consider acceptable for getting from the current population to a more sustainable one. A zombie apocolypse, while superficially appealing, would have far too much risk of delaying the release date for Pantheon unacceptably.
Bottom line...newbies are the lifeblood of MMOs. Therefore I will do what I can to promote their investment (time, fun, knowledge) in this game. This can be done many ways, even by just befriending them, so they have someone to go to, if they have questions or need help. That doesn't mean babying them. That means they stand on their own two feet and seek help when stumped. :)
Cana
I LOVED EQ1 BUFFS!
It was amazing, especially when you get those nice guys willing to burn their MGB's in plane of knowledge lol. I'd say it is a great aspect to any game, because it took someone time and skill to get to where they can do mass group buffs, and also gave the buffers i way to earn some coin on the side while either waiting for a raid or just wanting to kill time and chat it up.
Plane of Knowledge back in the day was the real hangout. Everyone was there at some point either looking for something or just to chill. It was always a great time made tons of friends just talking in /ooc. But the buffs were the tie that binds. Some people were usually pretty anti social, and waiting on buffs that's where they would talk and have fun. It was always a different experience in EQ. Even just getting buffs was fun in that game.
I really hope they have a hangout like PoK and a good buff station. I hated EQ2 where you couldn't buff anyone unless they were in your group. But that game was nowhere near as challenging as EQ1. So all that being said I'm all for buffs, and all for helping people kill stuff.
Buffs, give me buffs. Give me all of them.
There was really meaning to it and I also sometimes logged in, just to buff newbies or low levels just for the fun and the many thanks/greets. With my wizard I played taxi for tip and again, it meant something and my ports helped people to short cut long routes and saved time.
In what current game do you get something like this or even a "thank you" nowadays?
So yes, buffs encourage socialization.
Amris said:VR has made it loud and clear plain that they fully intend to outright discourage players from giving newbies weapons and gear. I suspect it will be the same for buffs. I'm already discouraged by there being mounts, so that people won't be bothered to stop and buff each other because they are mounted. Then we're going to make buffs pretty much meaningless any time but in groups, too.
Very discouraged. I'm glad that the "OMG STOP THE POWERLEVELERS AT ANY COST!!!" people will be happy, but I'm just tremendously discouraged.
I'm not sure where you got this info from but I'm very sure this isn't the dev's stance. From what I've read they seem to be encouraging the exact opposite from what you stated. I can't find the posts but Brad has stated a few times that he and the devs want to permit the trade of items. Meaning they want most items to be tradeable rather than soulbound or boe. They seem to want to encourage players buffing each other and handing down items.
Yes, there is talk of scaling buffs and possibly scaling the power of items but none of that is concrete yet. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't claim they want players to buff each other and hand down items but then scale back the power so far that there really isn't any reason to buff others or trade items in the first place. They have stated many times that they want players interacting with each other in this fashion plenty of times.
I wish I could find the posts to quote them for you because I think you'd be pleasantly surprised but I can't find them >.< but I don't think you have to worry or be discouraged with this.
From the FAQ:
13.11 Will I be able to freely trade my items?
We recognize that the items you gain from your adventures, or the hard-earned gold coins, are yours and that you should be able to do with them whatever you want. This means that no-drop and bind-on-equip items will be the exception, not the rule. Epic weapons or items used for quests may be restricted, but the majority of items will not. That said, some quests may require you to turn in an older item in order to complete them. You will also be able to sacrifice items at altars in temples in return for valuable and long lasting ‘buffs’. So, while the game will not stop you from handing down most items to other players, it will also encourage you to remove older items from the player-driven economy by rewarding you accordingly.
So items can be given to others.
-sorte.
NoobieDoo said:I'm not sure where you got this info from but I'm very sure this isn't the dev's stance. From what I've read they seem to be encouraging the exact opposite from what you stated. I can't find the posts but Brad has stated a few times that he and the devs want to permit the trade of items. Meaning they want most items to be tradeable rather than soulbound or boe. They seem to want to encourage players buffing each other and handing down items.
Yes, there is talk of scaling buffs and possibly scaling the power of items but none of that is concrete yet. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't claim they want players to buff each other and hand down items but then scale back the power so far that there really isn't any reason to buff others or trade items in the first place. They have stated many times that they want players interacting with each other in this fashion plenty of times.
I wish I could find the posts to quote them for you because I think you'd be pleasantly surprised but I can't find them >.< but I don't think you have to worry or be discouraged with this.
From the FAQ.
From the official FAQ:13.12 Are items going to have level or stat requirements and what do you think about twinking?
In general, there will be no hard level limits. High-level items will scale down to prevent too much power in the hands of a low-level character. There will still be lots of reasons to trade in your items such as sacrificing them at temples for long term buffs, augmenting your items, etc. Over time, this will cause more powerful items to trickle down. It is, however, our responsibility to stay ahead of that curve by introducing new content with better items to drop and craft. It’s more difficult to design properly, but we feel it creates a much more vibrant and open player driven economy.
Wanting people to buff each other doesn't mean newbies, necessarily. With their hard-line stance of scaling items, which is clearly spelled out that they want to actively discourage people from giving items to newbies, I doubt they are going to make newbie buffing worth doing, either.
It is plain that helping each other is NOT intended to go from higher levels to lower. The ONLY higher to lower level interaction they want is the higher level to scale down to group if they decide to associate with lower people.
I would LOVE to see something that says otherwise, but absolutely every indication is that they will do anything at all to prevent powerleveling.
Their own FAQ states in plain, direct English that they will do everything they can except NO DROP to discourage people giving newbies/alts items--and if they DO, they will make sure they scale down. It's NOT WORTH DOING. Why give a newbie a weapon they can't use any differently than a rusty weapon for 50 levels? No reason.
I really doubt items will scale and buffs won't. Nor will scaled buffs encourage interaction. Never do I bother to buff in WoW. Nor will I bother in Pantheon, I suspect; and for the same exact reason. Meaningless outside of, "uh, thanks. Why did we both stop for that again??"
The problem is that you can't both make buffs desirable but also at the same time not required but still memorable across the same level range. It's nice to get a level appropriate buff to make your life easier. It's not memorable. When it's not memorable, people expect it as if it were their due. This attitude prevailed even in EQ. Sow/clarity was an entitlement to many people. Fortunately, those types got run off of my server, but P99 that attitude is prevalent.
I think you are wrong in your assumption that "we want people to buff each other" goes outside of "but only in your level range", based on their attitude of "giving newbies items is baaaaaaad." Low level characters must never feel powerful, because powerlevelers. Cars must all have limiters because drunk drivers. Ugh.
This post was edited by Amris at March 23, 2017 2:43 AM PDT
Making buffs too powerful in general or too powerful on lower level characters is detrimental to the health of the game in my opinion. I feel like the concession to allow twinking is already a huge mistake that just makes new characters not want to do level specific things for their characters because they can just buy or trade for them. Buffs need to be kept in check if the game is meant to be challenging. If there is such a gignatic difference between a fully buffed character and an unbuffed character, then balancing content to be difficult without requiring full buffs becomes awkward. Look at Vanguard as an example of this, my character buffed in that game was probably 300% or more stronger than unbuffed, this type of power from buffs is not a good thing.
I think low level characters should do low level things and get low level buffs from other low level players. Making the game faceroll easy because you have a cleric buff that gives your level 15 tank 5 times as much hp is not good for the game despite the fact you get a warm fuzzy from a passerby. These type of high level buffs often make a lower level character of the same class feel less needed as well.
I guess I don't understand what makes it a good thing to allow low level characters to have extermely powerful high level buffs, and access to the same gear as max level characters for the most part. How is this not suiciding low and mid level content?
torveld said:I guess I don't understand what makes it a good thing to allow low level characters to have extermely powerful high level buffs, and access to the same gear as max level characters for the most part. How is this not suiciding low and mid level content?
If you've ever played EQ, you'll know that buffs are not an everyday happening for newbies. Nor being given items.
Otherwise, why would we consider it to be memorable?
Amris said:torveld said:I guess I don't understand what makes it a good thing to allow low level characters to have extermely powerful high level buffs, and access to the same gear as max level characters for the most part. How is this not suiciding low and mid level content?
If you've ever played EQ, you'll know that buffs are not an everyday happening for newbies. Nor being given items.
Otherwise, why would we consider it to be memorable?
Exactly. And it doesn't happen very often and even when it does, it maybe only lasts an hour or so, which in the grand scheme of things is nothing. And a lot of times, the receiving newbie thinks they're invincible when they're really not, so they go running face first into a pack of red mobs only to lose all of those nice buffs they just got.
Also, low lvl characters will not have access to the same gear as high level characters. At least not as far as stats are concerned. The items will be scaled down so it's not OP.
The effects will not be as extreme as you think. This sort of thing won't be profound enough to trivialize low and mid lvl content.
Still favor lasting ailments.Where other players have to help you find a cure.
It is in times of trouble that we seek comfort.
Meaningful social contacts are forged then.
I still believe buffs can encourage socialization.
But buffs are like protein shakes as a supplement for muscle gain(in this situation gaining friends)
yet too much causes fat gain if you do not succeed offsetting those extra calories.
(passive buffs and being overloaded with buffs easily gained has the opposite effect;we become self-sufficient and lazy)
So buffs are not the sole solution to look at for socialization.
I think persistent ailments on the other hand would create the field for meaningful contacts.
As it means something when players take the time to help you find the cure.
It means a lot more than when a player throws a buff on you. I think helping others through sick times is way more on a personal level.
I do believe they would make for a much more memorable and better socialization tool.
Fluffy said:Still favor lasting ailments.Where other players have to help you find a cure.
What would motivate me to spend time curing your disease? I can buff in a matter of a minute, leaving both of us feeling great. It's a large impact for a relatively short time investment, even including my mana regeneration. I can also buff while buying or selling, further not requiring a massive tie-up of my time.
Now, I've helped people sometimes with CRs that literally took days... but I don't do that often, and I don't have that kind of time anymore.
To be completely honest with you, I'd be nothing but irritated by the dynamic proposed here. Seriously, just how long do I need to waste on someone else's disease and what's my motivation? CRs requiring a memorable level of investment by a stranger are rare. Not unusual, as buffing is, but RARE.
Also, buffs are spontaneous on the part of the giver, impactful, and does not presume upon someone's time. What is proposed here is an imposition, so it will need to be rare, do-able by equal level people, and/or offer the helping person dividends.
People always question what motivates them,it is a question we can all expect in life.
what is the meaning of life?How can we encourage socialization?That on its own is a search for motivation.
It shows people long for meaningful interaction that encourages cooperation.
The search for what is lacking in so many multiplayer games.
What keeps you motivated to keep playing and being part of the community.
How can we make a difference in life?
I can not answer what will motivate you Amris.
Can only speak for myself as motivation depends on what brings you pleasure in life.
To me,making the differnce is what motivates me.
Turn around the poor shape(ailment),the tragedy they are in.I dont care if it requires a massive amount of my time
The friendship and the kindness that comes back is reward enough for me.
Wouldn't you be happy if you helped a friend and afterwards she says that your help prevented her from killing herself
If you light a lamp for someone else it will also brighten your path.
We look for meaningful social interacton,yet with all the super rewards we think we want in MMOs ,
eventually we still get jaded "Is this it?"
I believe bad motivation is behind the reward many desire
As in the end you will still quit the MMO if there is no deeper connection with the players ingame.
Then you realize that all the massive tie-up of time was wasted anyway.
We realize socialization is important ,but unfortunately many seek bad motives as a drive
I always get a kick out of the parallels from MMO's to real life. What motivates people? What is the meaning of life? Lol!
I can say this: I would only appreciate a buff if I knew for certain that I NEEDED a buff because I knew what it was like to STRUGGLE without any buffs. Kinda like a person in real life taking things for granted. You don't really appreciate a hot meal until you have gone for two days without any food at all. Think Yin/Yang, Good vs. Evil, Dark and Light. Would you even know what warmth was if you never felt cold? I have heard that the native Hawaiian language has no word for COLD, because it's never cold in Hawaii! But you can bet the bank that someone who grew up in the Yukon would enjoy the heck out of Waikiki!
Which brings me again to my plea for a very challenging game, without being 'kick you when you are down,' prohibitively unapproachable. In contrast, I just fired up EQ2 for a bit recently and hopped on one of my old mid-level characters. I ran around a zone for 15 minutes targeting mobs of relatively the same level as me and they all melted like butter before my lava blades! Did that make me feel like a bad-ass? Nope. Would I have appreciated a buff in this scenario? It just wouldn't have mattered. "Wow, these even-con mobs are dying in 1.77 seconds when I'm fully buffed as opposed to 1.83 seconds unbuffed!"
Buffs have to matter before they are needed and appreciated. Then when you receive a buff from a kind passerby, it FEELS awesome! "Wow, i just killed that yellow mob when before i could only safely handle one dark blue-con mob at a time and had to recover for 4 mins each time." Then people will seek out friends who can buff, and feel helpful and appreciated if they can give out buffs of their own. That will pull people together.
My original answer to this question simply stated that it did encourage socialization when passed between group/raid members, friends, or friends in the making. However, it does not help all that much if the exchange is a simple cash transation.
I do agree that in the grand scheme of things, buffs do encourage socialization. It is not necceasrily a 1 to 1 ratio, but it is a benefit. I am all for buffs, including buffs given by high level charaters to lower level ones. I really liked what EQ1 did with Temp (Temperance) and Virt (Virtue). Temp was a powerful cleric buff that would give a character a large amount of hit points. Anyone under level 45 would consider it a blessing to have it. Virt was much more powerful. However, Virt could only be cast on characters over level 45. If you were under 45, you got Temp, and you did like it! If you were over 45 you got Virt, and you still liked it!
Amris said:So, basically, "Do it because you should, or it's bad motivation"?
We are to rely on the hope that everyone will be motivated by guilt and help us?
What motivates you to buff someone? same thing.
Sometimes there is no motive and they just spam it in town for anyone passing by,some may grant a buff for a giggle about the cool names
Or because someone is in trouble fighting a strong mob and they want to help out by granting the buff
There can be many motives for different people.So ;what motivates? Different for each person,many things
When people question what the meaning of life is they are looking for a drive,purpose,some motivation to continue.
Just like how some MMO players have trouble to continue playing when they can't find the motivation to continue.
The desire to help others is the only healthy motivation I think.
And then we arrive at the question why you prefer multiplayer over single player.
A multiplayer isn't good if there is no need for other players to play with us,help us.In multiplayer game we are supposed to be in it together
But there is no point discussing the colours of the walls when a building is about to collapse (the mmo genre) yet people still are talking colours for the wall
That is the point I tried to make ,without the true desire to meet and connect to others, it is all lost if that isn't enough motivation.As the lack of desire to connect is why we can't stick to MMOs
If you want epic rewards single players do just as well
The difference is that buffs aren't mandatory the way "a prolongued illness" being cured is. You're not comparing apples and oranges. You're basically wanting to force people to go beg for help, without giving motivation to others to do that helping.
All your philosphies aside... at the end of the day... that's not going to work.
Forcing people to go annoy people to cure them isn't creating socialization. It just isn't.
Buffing newbies = voluntary and they CAN do without.
((EDIT: Again, I'm not necessarily against it only in the case where it's rare in the way that very bad corpse runs are, for example.))
You could always say that someone is trying to force a buff on you too,especially if you never asked for that buff.
That buffs are voluntary and players can do without is actually a problem in my view.(It sends the underlying message that we can do without other players)
The more we'll need other players ,the better.
I believe lasting ailments will make socialization ,forming social and memorable bonds ,lasting at least.
Rather than forcing people to beg for help,it requires the much needed player involvement with others players,the beautiful interconnectivity that lacks in the mayority of MMO's,if not all
It is because others decide to go through the fire to help you that it creates the opportunity for lasting relations to be forged
That friendship that comes back is the greatest kind of motivation for you to log in each day to spend time with your friends
Lasting ailments also contribute to the harsh climate;you need a strategy ,you need to adapt.
In trouble you will be happy to see other players.Example,if you are about to collapse in a desert ,you hope the figure at the horizon is no fata morgana.
With lasting ailments we are in it together and it contributes to that much-needed compelling social and group-oriented game play.
Don't forget that players will be contending with the world itself.So being together in that same situation,in trouble,dehydrated in the desert with another player
Chances are small you will ignore the ones you'll meet.
If you go crazy you might need to adapt strategy to avoid friendly fire on the continuation of your adventure
That is why buffs pale in comparison to lasting ailments to encourage socialization
Edit
Also lasting ailments can increase the appreciation for buffs .As it urges us to work with what we have;each other in a harsh environment where the little extra things mean a lot