In a recent discussion on a guild forum, I was reminded of how powerful the buffs in EQ1; in fact I remember that even attempting to group or solo without buffs was challenging. In the plethora of MMOs that have been out since, it appears that strength and duration of buffs has lessened. There has also been this shift towards each class being able to self-buff, reducing the need for player-to-player interaction.
While there has been some good discussion on the specifics of buffs and DoTs, with regard to stacking:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2474/your-thoughts-on-buffs-that-don-t-stack
I am more curious about this game's future community's thoughts on Buffs as a means to encourage socialization?
Many of us fondly remember getting a high-level buff as we started a day’s adventuring or being pissed that an untimely death wiped out those same buffs.
In a game that is so focused on group-oriented playstyle, would not buffs need to be restricted to individual classes with little overlap and would not those same buffs need to be extremely beneficial?
Drazzot
I don't have a problem with buffing newbs and helping them out. It's fun to give them a nice buff that they are excited will help for a while. But I do think that they shouldn't last very long. Possibly tie duration to level or not allow high level buffs on lower level players?
The reason being is, it's like going to the park and feeding the birds. Eventually they will get dependent on humans rather than surviving on their own. I always bugged me in EQ when people would sit around waiting to get buffed or refused to group until they got buffed. Buffs are a bonus and should never be a requirement except in certain circumstances where the environment or specific enemy requires it.
I believe buffs do help encourage socialization and community building; I’ve met and still maintain great friendships with people all over the world due to either them assisting me with buffs or vice versa. The way EQ’s buffs were able to be cast on any level player really felt right, and IMO is a small part of what made EQ special for many people. Here’s hoping Pantheon follows this path…
bigdogchris said:I don't have a problem with buffing newbs and helping them out. It's fun to give them a nice buff that they are excited will help for a while. But I do think that they shouldn't last very long. Possibly tie duration to level or not allow high level buffs on lower level players?
The reason being is, it's like going to the park and feeding the birds. Eventually they will get dependent on humans rather than surviving on their own. I always bugged me in EQ when people would sit around waiting to get buffed or refused to group until they got buffed. Buffs are a bonus and should never be a requirement except in certain circumstances where the environment or specific enemy requires it.
They can simply make it to where lets say your spell is 20 levels higher than your target than it can not to put on him, this for the most part would make it to where plvling would be a lot harder to accomplish, which is a good thing i would rather have someone go through the grind and know most of the in and out of their class or at least feel comfortable doing so, than have someone who jumped most of his levels but have no idea what on earth they are doing. That being said i hope the higher level the spell the more powerful and the longer duration on it as well, i rem being grped up with a cleric in cleric and asking to get courage on me almost every 20 minutes was a bit annoying, it wasn't his fault though that just how long it last. but once you leveled him up and he got to lvl 60 in Velious he got a spell called Aegolism, he a renown Cleric and became a powerful one at that by this time and deserves to have a more powerful and longer lasting spell so he gets one that last for almost 2 hours and gives an insane amount more hp/ac than what courage did which is what he started with. Buffs is a way of socializing with people i say every class should have their own unique buff to make them acceptable in any grp, its another way to make your class more unique than the others. But i do agree some people in EQ don't do much if they are not buffed, this is their choice but hopefully if the spell out levels them by 15-20 levels that they can't have it would be enough to break them out of this habit for the most part so they can socialize with the world like your suppose too.
Rint said:I believe buffs do help encourage socialization and community building; I’ve met and still maintain great friendships with people all over the world due to either them assisting me with buffs or vice versa. The way EQ’s buffs were able to be cast on any level player really felt right, and IMO is a small part of what made EQ special for many people. Here’s hoping Pantheon follows this path…
I understand what your saying here, but it makes the game way to easy if you do this. I want to know that if i grp with a lvl 30 warrior that he got their on his own not that he had a lvl 60 character plvling him their and as no idea how to play his class. It's not fair to me or to him for him to be carried like that. I understand people wanting to help people and everyhing which i fully suppport but they can use their lower lvl spells to accomplish this not using their bigger ones so they can kill things every 10 secs just becuase the DS is doing all the work like EQ is now. At least if they are using their lower lvl spells this still could/might give the player enough knowledge on how to play his class, and if it doesn't than he surely wasn't going to if he had the higher lvl spells on him. Buffs should be their to help your grp/ fellow guildies/friends and strangers, not cripple them into speedy lvls and lack of knowledge of how to play their class.
I actually went back to EQ to create a new character because I am bored and not playing any mmo currently. I have a 57 Druid who I brought over to the newbie area to buff my new character. I could only use buffs from my Druid that were up to level 50, nothing higher than that could be applied to the newbie character and gave me the message "this spell is too powerful for your target." So I gave my newbie a skin buff, a regen buff, and thorns and sent him in to kill mobs that were way too hard for him to do alone, normally. As others probably know, my newbie had to do a certain amount of damage to the mob in order to get the experience for it, and the higher con the mob, the harder it was for him to actually hit it to do dmg. There were some mobs that the thorns basically killed by themselves, and my new character got no experience for it. At times my newbie got really low on health so I had to heal him, which caused the mob to agro on to my Druid, so I had to sit there and whack at it with my newbie for a while to get agro back. In my opinion, simple mechanics like these are fairly effective in preventing anyone from becoming a God at a low level, but still allow a bit of power leveling. I gave the same buffs to a couple of other characters that I saw in the starting area, for which I got tells saying thanks.
I do think that buffs can provide socialization, I remember giving out cleric buffs in PoK, and receiving donations (unsolicited) from thankful players. I also donated to others for the same thing, I usually needed KEI (mana buff) as I was heading out for a group. I did, on occasion, wait a few minutes to get a buff on my way to a group, but don't think I ever turned down a group because I didn't have a buff at that time. My experiences with being buffed at low levels were sporadic, usually done by a good hearted soul who happened to be running through the zone. I never solicited them for buffs, but was always grateful when I did receive them, and made sure to send a tell. I did get invited to some groups because I was seen buffing people, so I know that it can help to meet new people.
In terms of buff length, I sort of don't have a specific number. In the above case with my Druid and newbie, the skin buff lasted 1 hour, the regen buff lasted about 25 mins, and the damage shield (thorns) lasted about 15 minutes. That seems like a good mix to me, and I agree that as you get to higher levels your buffs should last longer. It is my hope that each class in Pantheon has its own unique set of buffs that it brings to a group, and that they are all useful in their own unique way. Everyone wants to feel needed in a group, and cool buffs that are class defining are one way I think that can be accomplished, or at least help.
Rint said:I believe buffs do help encourage socialization and community building; I’ve met and still maintain great friendships with people all over the world due to either them assisting me with buffs or vice versa. The way EQ’s buffs were able to be cast on any level player really felt right, and IMO is a small part of what made EQ special for many people. Here’s hoping Pantheon follows this path…
This a thousand times
The problem with persistent, long lasting buffs, especially out-of-group ones, is that if they are useful (and if not, then why even have them), they quickly become required.
And then, since everyone views them as required, then the devs need to balance around them.
So, the poor guy that just wants to go solo for a couple hours is just SOL w/o these buffs.
--Gray
Buffs should have people say "Glad to be of service" and not "Murder All Filthy Orcs Because of My Incredibly Overpowered Aura of VENGEANCE, EAT their organs and chant rituals on their bones, FLAMING Wood Elves of that one WOOD GOD"...we need more flaming wood elves and would gladly say the second line.
Buffs are nice and all, but people like getting money off of them far too much. Is that bad? Nah, they'll probably leave the game and reflect on it later. The problem is the design that made some classes have the more noticable buffs that gave them the most cold hard cash.
I like damage shields, but at the same time I liked being crowd control as an Enchanter. I did NOT like being a mushroom salesman while my Magician was a vending machine full of water and one or two racks of flaming candy (flameshields make low level groups berserk, and mod rods just blow them up). Every class should have lucrative things to give for the sake of gameplay and strategy. Melees didn't buff in EQ1, but they should never be seen as "lessers"...they gladly soak up buffs and equipment.
In GW2 everyone buffs everyone equally, and that's plain boring. Being a Might/Fury giving Elementalist was fun at first, but it was never realized as being so much from me than the thirty other people following us. That sounds like entitlement, but I'd rather rain destuction and give only fireshields rather than be a fragile and underappreciated mega-buffer who dances across the battlefield making rings of fire that hit no enemies just to give buffs (if you're a Bard you'll probably like that). I tried to really enjoy playing a buffer in every class on that game, but it never was any different (making others invis as a Mesmer was much more enjoyable than worrying about giving tiny icons to people). Buffs in EQ2 shouldn't even be mentioned. I do have to say that the constant giving of buffs and the sheer amount of people to give them to in GW2 did make them more strategic and dynamic than just having ones that last hours.
Maybe classes should have their long duration buffs and their short duration ones for strategic purposes. Normal flameshield and stackable short duration flameshield. Normal stat buff and...emergency steroids. It definately makes buffing interesting if it must be done DURING combat DURING the best time to do so.
What I'd really like are items that buff, potions that don't cost a fortune. As a future Summoner I hope items can do unique things, because as we know anyone can play the game of "socializing" from doing anything! Minor Illusion into a carpet? Socialize! Give out expensive crafted booze and not understand anyone afterwards? Socialize! Fall though the zone? Socialize! Give out seventy stacks of bandages to every single Monk? Socialize! Train others uncontrollably? Socialize! Start a war out of no where? Socialize! Talk about politics? Socialize! Although there are a ton of negative ways, there are also a ton of positive ways that are much better at getting people to be more social than just buffing.
Getting rid of givable buffs probably would do little to the social aspect of the game *alone* and can probably even help it if groups don't become kamikaze or quit when the buffs are gone. Perhaps high level buffs can give minor debuffs (hangovers) to lower level characters after they've run their course and depending on the level difference. If a buff is reapplied then the debuff becomes noticably stronger, preventing others from relying on them in such a short time.
Hey, strong pleasures always lead to strong displeasures (eat only cake and you're intestine will PAIN you).
Buffs are a great way to socialize, make some money and even show off a bit because, honestly, who doesn't want to show off or be the center of attention once and awhile? I remember being so happy when I finally had enough AA to get Mass Group Buff on my Shaman. Just thinking of all the ways I could use that spell both for the benefit of my guild but also just a general "here, everyone have a nice buff" approach. Take that way and you lose yet another avenue where players can interact.
That said, there should be some discretion applied to how powerful those buffs should be. A lvl 20 running around in a lvl 20 area sporting lvl 50 buffs? Not what was intended to be sure. Simple solution is just scale the strength and duration of the buff to the recipient. Nothing more complicated is needed than that. Yes, they will be slightly more powerful than getting a same-line buff from another level 20 player but not ridiculously overpower.
So yes, keep in sharing off buffs just scale the result to the recipient.
In FFXI you could cast high level buffs like Protect IV on a low level player but the duration was reduced drastically. So instead of a 30 minute duration they might have 4 minutes. This made it to where you could only buff low level players with appropriate level buffs if they wanted the full duration. It worked pretty well. It was always nice to receive a random protect or shell when soloing at low levels but it certainly wasn't good enough to be considered a required buff.
But a big part of EQ was having fun by being able to get overpowered Buffs or being able to wear this lvl 50ish item at lvl 1. Part ot the fun was being able to use my lvl 50 or 60 alt whatever to buff anothers player newb and he did the same with his high lvl alt. Its just boring if you play a game for 7 years and you cannot help your alts or twink them in any way because of it all being limited by an anti twink system. While i do agree that it can be over the top for lvl 1 chars to have lvl 50 buffs. I feel like if you limit it too much it will take away alot of fun.
And yes Buff will help socialization. Just not if you limit them to 5 minute duration :) because why bother then. 4hour 40 min Buffs on a lvl 1 and woopee doo :).
Zikkar said:Rint said:I believe buffs do help encourage socialization and community building; I’ve met and still maintain great friendships with people all over the world due to either them assisting me with buffs or vice versa. The way EQ’s buffs were able to be cast on any level player really felt right, and IMO is a small part of what made EQ special for many people. Here’s hoping Pantheon follows this path…
This a thousand times
Agreed
antonius said:Zikkar said:Rint said:I believe buffs do help encourage socialization and community building; I’ve met and still maintain great friendships with people all over the world due to either them assisting me with buffs or vice versa. The way EQ’s buffs were able to be cast on any level player really felt right, and IMO is a small part of what made EQ special for many people. Here’s hoping Pantheon follows this path…
This a thousand times
Agreed
Ditto
EQ did this right until they started allowing buffs to last for 3 hours. Once that occurred, speicfically with KEI (mana regen), then day to day play started to center around always having that buff. Earlier on though, especially with SoW (run speed) and damage shield buffs, it was a nice way to trigger social contact. As a SK, I bought SoW off Shamans/Druids consistently, ports off Wizzards/Druids frequently, and occasionally Symbol off a Cleric if I had some gems on me. I got to know those people over time, I'd look for them for groups, and eventually I was getting free buffs whenever I needed. It adds a social dynamic for sure, and as long as the buffs aren't too strong and don't last too long (and porting around the world to find these classes remains somewhat limited), I think it's great for the game and adds some special individuality and flavor to certain classes.
They do encourage socialization, but two features I'd like to see in Pantheon:
1) Buffs automatically scale down to the level of the target, if the source caster is out of group and higher level than the target. Keeping in mind there should be caps on everything, at launch, by level. Haste caps, regen caps, buff caps, stat caps, etc.
2) In group, each role specific and/or class specific buff is a permanent aura, when grouped. You simply always have that benefit if they're alive and in a group and within LoS of you (or within say 100m or something huge). None of this rebuffing every 6 minutes nonsense. That is, if you should get a unique benefit from having me in the group, that unique benefit is always there, whatever it is.
Now, there's nothing wrong with extraordinarily amazing single-target buffs and having to maintain them, while recognizing there is a chasm of variance between "Autobots roll-out!" and "No conveniences, EVER!", a tiny bit of convenience in this regard would go a long way, imo.
All of the above with the caveat that in modern TLP EQ, once you hit 46, the expectation is you will be running max dur KEI and Aego no matter what you have in your group. That's the reality, and it's kind of a bummer. :|
Buffs do encourage socialization when they are used as I believe they were intended. When cast upon a group/raid member or friend. However, when a low level player pays for buffs so they can go out a solo Emporer Crush, it ceases to be about socialization and really becomes a simple economic transaction. These are two different things.
Paying for buffs with little or no exchange of friendship or communication does not add to the socializing aspect of the game. It is maybe, maybe one step above the bazaar/auction house.
I am 100% in favor of each class having a buff that can be cast upon a non-group-member to encourage socialization. Vanguard sort of did this and I thought it was a great feature.
I definitely think that buffs encourage socialization. They are a great example of the class interdependency that is one of the tenents of Pantheon.
That said, I do share the believe that powerful buffs should be scaled for lower level players. From the hip I'd say maybe a max of 10%-20% stronger than the equivalent buff of same level, i.e. a buff that gave HP and AC wouldn't add hundreds of HP to a level 3 character, instead if would be scaled to what a similar buff cast to what a level 3'ish player could cast, but slightly better. Same for equipment.
Also -- I remember DAoC had 'permanent' duration buffs that once cast didn't dissapear for 1) as long as you lived, 2) as long as the caster lived, 3) as long as you and the caster were online and in the same zone. I would prefer to NOT see that system for Pantheon as it creates the need/desire for 'buffbots'. I think having a duration of 30 minutes- 1 hour on all but raid level buffs is critical for maintaining interdependency and thus socialization.
If I recall Driud spells were usually the best buffs for low level players, but they became less useful fairly quickly even if the Druid was max level. The mobs were way more powerful than the players. Having buffs just reduced down time. It was most helpful in the 1-20 range. After that mobs were hard even with buffs. The most useful buff was probably Spirit of the Wolf so that you could run to zone if you were in trouble. After that the most common buffs I saw were Damage sheild and regeneration. Both had short durations of around ten minutes to twenty minutes. High level Cleric, Shaman, and Druid buffs sometimes cost an expensive ingrediant. I beleive they eventually nerfed buffs so you would have to cast lower level versions on lower level players. Pack Wolf Form was also popular. It was one of those nice things that brought high levels back to starting areas. Low levels would often sell bone chips and bat wings (compnents for spells) to high level players. KEI also became popular to eliminate downtime around PoP.