Forums » Secret Class

Necromancer

    • 1206 posts
    January 20, 2017 3:40 PM PST

    I for one NEVER remember necromancers being that strong, maybe some time after Luclin? In classic EQ they were an amazing solo class, that was their specialty. But even solo you would not really be taking on things above even or maybe low yellow con because a resist or two could spell certain death, and killing/mana efficiency suffered.

    Necromancers did tend to have poor damage in GROUPS but otherwise had hands down the best from a damage per mana (DPM) standpoint. In practical application in the fast-paced group or raid atmosphere, the necromancer was often a failure as a DPS in terms of DPM. As a group becomes more effective, the necromancer ends up using less mana efficient, but faster spells, sacrificing DPM for the sake of getting the DPS out before the enemy dies. Only during solo activities and the more lengthier (raid) fights can the necromancer generally get their efficiency as advertised.


    This post was edited by Iksar at January 20, 2017 3:40 PM PST
    • 65 posts
    January 23, 2017 6:01 AM PST

    UnknownQuantity said:

    Don't worry.  I'm not planning to solo much this time. :)

     Soloing in EQ was a different experience than games now.  That's to say it was a lot mor fun usually IMO.

     

    Flashbacks of a single necro slowly killing everything in Felwithe comes to mind... Always wanted to do it.

    -W

    • 2695 posts
    January 23, 2017 6:38 AM PST

    Witter said:

    UnknownQuantity said:

    Don't worry.  I'm not planning to solo much this time. :)

     Soloing in EQ was a different experience than games now.  That's to say it was a lot mor fun usually IMO.

     

    Flashbacks of a single necro slowly killing everything in Felwithe comes to mind... Always wanted to do it.

    -W

    I still have vivid memories as a young high elf watching helplessly as a dark elf necro slaughtered my guards. I so look forward to taking it right back to the enemy in Pantheon.

    • 1019 posts
    January 23, 2017 6:56 AM PST

    During most of my time in EQ, the necromancers were very powerful soloers, but you didn't get them in your group too often.  I'm sure a lot of this was because they preferred to be soloing.  Necromancers were one of those classes that made me feel safe if I had one in the group.

     

    I do agree that it's curious that we have a bard forum and no necromancer forum here.  I think necromancers are quite important to a fantasy game.  I can understand putting bards ahead of them if only because not everyone does bards and it's been a bit since we've had good bards.  I probably would have put necromancers in before mages, though.  Perhaps the summoner is part necro, part mage?

    • 2695 posts
    January 23, 2017 7:01 AM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    During most of my time in EQ, the necromancers were very powerful soloers, but you didn't get them in your group too often.  I'm sure a lot of this was because they preferred to be soloing.  Necromancers were one of those classes that made me feel safe if I had one in the group.

     

    I do agree that it's curious that we have a bard forum and no necromancer forum here.  I think necromancers are quite important to a fantasy game.  I can understand putting bards ahead of them if only because not everyone does bards and it's been a bit since we've had good bards.  I probably would have put necromancers in before mages, though.  Perhaps the summoner is part necro, part mage?

    I think Summoners will be different enough from necros. They have already said that there will be a dedicated Necro class. It's just likely that bards will come first though, and that is why they already have a forum. Similarly, there's probably more of a devout following for bards. Necros will come in time though.

    • 1019 posts
    January 23, 2017 8:33 AM PST

    I guess.  I don't think opening up a separate forum could cost them anything, so why not have one for Necromancers?  Maybe they are just waiting for the new boards to be ready before making any changes.  The whole thing seems weird to me.  It doesn't seem like a situation where Bards and Necromancers will come in a few weeks after launch, or even a few months.  Seems like they'll either make it in or they won't, and if they don't make it, they'll probably have to wait for expansion.  I guess we'll have a better idea of that in beta, though.

    • 190 posts
    January 23, 2017 8:38 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    I for one NEVER remember necromancers being that strong, maybe some time after Luclin? In classic EQ they were an amazing solo class, that was their specialty. But even solo you would not really be taking on things above even or maybe low yellow con because a resist or two could spell certain death, and killing/mana efficiency suffered.

    Necromancers did tend to have poor damage in GROUPS but otherwise had hands down the best from a damage per mana (DPM) standpoint. In practical application in the fast-paced group or raid atmosphere, the necromancer was often a failure as a DPS in terms of DPM. As a group becomes more effective, the necromancer ends up using less mana efficient, but faster spells, sacrificing DPM for the sake of getting the DPS out before the enemy dies. Only during solo activities and the more lengthier (raid) fights can the necromancer generally get their efficiency as advertised.

    I agree.

    From what I recall casters couldn't usually get spells to stick on red mobs.  This was my experience in groups and it gave melee classes a big advantage.  They could slowly whtittle away a red mobs healthy, but a caster couldn't do a whole lot.  One vivid memory of this was when fighting in highpass hold against goblins.  The people with two handed weapons could do a fair chunk of damage.  Those with one handed weapons were doing about 1 damage per hit.  The Wizard in the group couldn't damage the mob at all.  I do recall some Necro's and Druid's that could solo red mobs, but it took a long time and they had to kite them around while meditating in between.  They also had to make sure snare was applied or they would be dead.  It's easily possible to not reapply the snare before it wears off and then you are running for your life.  A few resists could also spell death.  It wasn't usually worth kiting above blue as it took too long to kill the mob.  You could have killed a few blues in the time it took to kill one white, yellow, or red.  Also someone pointed out that classes like Necro's and Druids weren't very sought after in groups.  This was especially true for a Necromancer, but also for a Druid as they were weaker in heals/buffs than Cleric/Shaman, weaker in nukes than a wizard/mage, and weaker in CC than an Ench bard.  What they brought was some versatility and the ability to travel quickly.  Necros had a fair amount of utility for soloing, but lacked greatly in quick DPS for groups.  It all balanced out in the end IMO.

    • 1048 posts
    February 4, 2017 4:57 AM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    During most of my time in EQ, the necromancers were very powerful soloers, but you didn't get them in your group too often.  I'm sure a lot of this was because they preferred to be soloing.  Necromancers were one of those classes that made me feel safe if I had one in the group.

     

    I do agree that it's curious that we have a bard forum and no necromancer forum here.  I think necromancers are quite important to a fantasy game.  I can understand putting bards ahead of them if only because not everyone does bards and it's been a bit since we've had good bards.  I probably would have put necromancers in before mages, though.  Perhaps the summoner is part necro, part mage?

    There were a lot of reasons that necro's werent often seen in groups, and even less in raids. One was certainly because they were able to solo pretty effectively. As a side-effect of that, there was a perception (often quite rightly earned) that necro's didnt know how to group. People assumed they would dot the ads and let their pet run amok and just generaly be ineffective. 

    But there were also some mechanics issues that made grouping with necro's problematic. 

    -- Pet pathing was horrible thru Kunark/Velious, and if the group was moving around the pet could warp and drop thru floors and create a hell of a train. A good necro would be very aware and instantly dismiss any pet that did so, feign, and maybe even do a quick camp and relog, depending on the situation. Not having a pet dropped their potential DPS. 
    -- Necro's didnt have any effective nukes, and their dots were slow so it took them time to ramp up their damage. In a group where the goal was to chain pull and kill quickly for max xp/loot a necro was considered a liability because other classes could dish out their damage far more quickly. 
    -- If a necro was able to really stack several dots on a mob, agro was a concern. They were able to peal agro off the tank and if they werent feigning periodically to clear agro they could cause a mess (see aforementioned "don't know how to solo" comment")
    -- A dot line could not stack. So in a raid, you really only needed one necro and any more were just pointless really. The only reason big raids would have multiple necros were for CR. (This made it hell to complete epics as a necro.)
    -- Mana feed : This spell line was reviled by most necros because if they were invited they were expected to just be a battery for the clerics/enchanters. 

    Most of these were corrected over time, and by Luclin a necro could be very effective in a group and in a raid. But the perceptions persisted and people still shunned necros or treated continued to insist that they be a battery. 

    [Multiple edits trying to make the bullet list function work.... and failing to do so... ]


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at February 4, 2017 5:05 AM PST
    • 2695 posts
    February 4, 2017 7:37 AM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    I guess.  I don't think opening up a separate forum could cost them anything, so why not have one for Necromancers?  Maybe they are just waiting for the new boards to be ready before making any changes.  The whole thing seems weird to me.  It doesn't seem like a situation where Bards and Necromancers will come in a few weeks after launch, or even a few months.  Seems like they'll either make it in or they won't, and if they don't make it, they'll probably have to wait for expansion.  I guess we'll have a better idea of that in beta, though.

    Yeah that's true. At least it would cut down on the amount of posts about Necro being the "secret class" lol

    • 1619 posts
    February 5, 2017 7:25 AM PST

    I would like to see raced based pets for necromancers, such as :

    Dark Myr 

       Tank Pet - Undead Whale

        DPS Pet - Undead Shark

        CC Pet - Undead Octopus

     

    Or, the ability to raise Undead versions of the mobs you actually kill while adventuring. Kill and Orc, raise an Orc.

    • 190 posts
    February 8, 2017 4:04 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    Shucklighter said:

    During most of my time in EQ, the necromancers were very powerful soloers, but you didn't get them in your group too often.  I'm sure a lot of this was because they preferred to be soloing.  Necromancers were one of those classes that made me feel safe if I had one in the group.

     

    I do agree that it's curious that we have a bard forum and no necromancer forum here.  I think necromancers are quite important to a fantasy game.  I can understand putting bards ahead of them if only because not everyone does bards and it's been a bit since we've had good bards.  I probably would have put necromancers in before mages, though.  Perhaps the summoner is part necro, part mage?

    There were a lot of reasons that necro's werent often seen in groups, and even less in raids. One was certainly because they were able to solo pretty effectively. As a side-effect of that, there was a perception (often quite rightly earned) that necro's didnt know how to group. People assumed they would dot the ads and let their pet run amok and just generaly be ineffective. 

    But there were also some mechanics issues that made grouping with necro's problematic. 

    -- Pet pathing was horrible thru Kunark/Velious, and if the group was moving around the pet could warp and drop thru floors and create a hell of a train. A good necro would be very aware and instantly dismiss any pet that did so, feign, and maybe even do a quick camp and relog, depending on the situation. Not having a pet dropped their potential DPS. 
    -- Necro's didnt have any effective nukes, and their dots were slow so it took them time to ramp up their damage. In a group where the goal was to chain pull and kill quickly for max xp/loot a necro was considered a liability because other classes could dish out their damage far more quickly. 
    -- If a necro was able to really stack several dots on a mob, agro was a concern. They were able to peal agro off the tank and if they werent feigning periodically to clear agro they could cause a mess (see aforementioned "don't know how to solo" comment")
    -- A dot line could not stack. So in a raid, you really only needed one necro and any more were just pointless really. The only reason big raids would have multiple necros were for CR. (This made it hell to complete epics as a necro.)
    -- Mana feed : This spell line was reviled by most necros because if they were invited they were expected to just be a battery for the clerics/enchanters. 

    Most of these were corrected over time, and by Luclin a necro could be very effective in a group and in a raid. But the perceptions persisted and people still shunned necros or treated continued to insist that they be a battery. 

    [Multiple edits trying to make the bullet list function work.... and failing to do so... ]

    This is all true, but it was worth it to be able to have such a versatile class.  It also fit well with their lore as they were shunned by society.  

    It appeared they tried to make them a healing class in later expansions.  I would much prefer they were a CC class if they must have a role in group as it fits their evil nature well.

    Regardless it was a lot of fun to play the class solo.

    • 3 posts
    March 5, 2017 12:43 PM PST

    UnknownQuantity said:

    ... It appeared they tried to make them a healing class in later expansions.  I would much prefer they were a CC class if they must have a role in group as it fits their evil nature well. ...

    Nowadays we are tanks, and even have good group dps. :)

    • 2695 posts
    March 7, 2017 7:26 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I would like to see raced based pets for necromancers, such as :

    Dark Myr 

       Tank Pet - Undead Whale

        DPS Pet - Undead Shark

        CC Pet - Undead Octopus

     

    Or, the ability to raise Undead versions of the mobs you actually kill while adventuring. Kill and Orc, raise an Orc.

    Haha that would be a pretty big burden on the art team, even if there was just one pet model per race. But it's definitely a cool idea.

    I definitely like the idea of raising enemies that you just killed. It would awesome if they showed up as zombie versions of their previous selves, but again, then the art team would have to design undead versions of almost every mob in the game just for that one ability. But I'd be content with them just having the same model as they did before they died. I think that would be an awesome ability. It would make you want to undertake a fight with a tough mob just so that you could turn it around and have it fight for you. I'm sure some mobs would be more difficult or even impossible to raise and they would probably come back with decreased stats, but it still would be a lot of fun.

    • 10 posts
    April 28, 2017 4:26 PM PDT

    Copy of my post from another thread:

    Originally a Cleric in EQ 1, I ended as a Necromancer main.   There is just something about this class that gets me excited.  I remember back in the year 2003ish, watching in Awe as a solo Necro was killing multiple mobs at once while my full group struggled to keep up.  After an hour of watching this Necro, he finally sent me a tell asking if we wanted to join forces.  This was the first time I ever grouped with a Necro, actually this was the first time I have ever seen one up close.  I was playing my Cleric and was the main healer for the group, the Necro sent me a tell "Can you buff my pet please?".  After the buffs, the Necro started to pull... I never seen anything so awesome in EQ before.  His pet was Off-Tanking a mob while the Necro Dotting the maintanks target and his pet's target and also kitted a mob.. all at once.  Some of the best XP I have ever seen(back in those days).  The following day, I made my level 1 Necro and never looked back.

    I know it is impossible to relive that awesome experience, trust me I have been looking for it since then.  No Necromancers have ever came close to what Everquest pulled off, not even close.  Capture what was best from the EQ Necromancer, I will give you my left arm if you can achieve this!

    I realize that Pantheon is going to be a group focused MMO, but not all of us gamers want to rely on a group to progress forward.  Imo, there should always be a few options to allow players to attempt to progress content by themselves or with minimal grouping.  Trying to create that balance is a hard task indeed and Everquest 1 managed to create such a unique Necromancer that no other MMO has yet to duplicate to this day.  

    Necromancers are a unique class in itself, able to achieve feats solo usings a plethera of jack of all trade skills that enabled the Necromancer to overcome great challenges.  In a group setting the Necromancer brings a unique set of skills... Corpse summoning, combat rezzes(wipe detterant), mana effiniency, split pulling capability, CC, massive sustained damage through stacking of DOT's, off-tank capabilties with summoned pet, off-healing and we can't forget the incredible sounds and animations of the most powerful undead caster summoner!

    Necromancer's have always been outsiders amongst thier peers, mystique and looked at in awe.  To find and recreate this wouldn't be hard because we already have the best example in place... the original EQ Necromancer has been unmatched in quality/playstyle to this day.  Can Pantheon recreate the magic of those days?  I think so and when they do, I will be amongst the first to explore thier offerings with a witty undead grin.


    This post was edited by novellerfane at April 28, 2017 5:05 PM PDT
    • 5 posts
    May 2, 2017 7:24 AM PDT

    Once the Alternate Abilities rolled out and you could really get the DoT crits rolling with a good stack on raid mobs it changed the game for us. I remember being parsed in top 5 damage during our raids a few times. Pulling aggro was always kind of concerning though. Good thing there were several ways to FD once you saw the %T change to your name hahaha. Who doesn't miss DMF? :p Only image I had around of my main...must have been right after I got that lovely 1.5


    This post was edited by xDSM at May 2, 2017 7:30 AM PDT
    • 16 posts
    November 30, 2017 12:50 AM PST
    I would also absolutely love to see a Necromancer as well. As an original Rallos Zelizer player. I loved my solo leveling ability and also once late game, was able to group n be efficient as well. Bring on necros and AA’s again :)-PandaMan