Deolus said: There is a lot of talk about balance. In the early days of EQ classes were unique. Each class had its strengths and weaknesses. The warrior was meant to be the best tank at the expense of dps, the wizard was the best burst damage at the expense of vulnerability. Nowadays every class is as good as another. I don't understand why classes should be balanced in a non-pvp setting. Classes are unique. Each class having a same spell or ability that does the same thing is boring to me. If you want that ability, create a char of that class. As for pvp, I'm not a great fan (though I did play archeage for a while) but again classes need to be unique. There just needs to be a way that each class can take advantage of the other class' weaknesses. Deo
I agree with Deolus in regards to the talks about balance in an RPGMMO which takes a lot from DnD then most newer games now. The class balance to me is much less important. The game isn't being built around PvP and shouldn't design itself as if it were. The checks and balances that need to be looked at are much different in my opinion.
To the person that claimed that that druids/shammys should be able to heal like clerics. I largly disagree due to the fact that you could do a lot of content with a shammies heals/regen just fine as long as you had their slows. You also had their buffs that decreased the time to kill (ttk). The same applied for druids in similar respects with their ability to heal/regen, damage, buff, portal, etc etc. However I would agree their healing/want in a group was far less than a shammy that could slow and haste melee. However you weren't calling a shammy when you wanted a portal somewhere lol... The druids were still heavily sought after, they just filled a different role in the game. They also had utilities that let them effectively solo a lot of outside content which clerics could not do.
The other tanks could have definitely used some love, however if anyone here ever leveled a warrior they would understand the struggle they had keeping aggro in the early days. SKs and Pallies just spammed spells and had instant aggro where the warrior would be losing it almost all the time. This problem became even worse with twinks. Especially in top heavy servers like p99 where you can use a monk twink to tank almost all raid content and build a dps/healer group instead of the tank/healer/dps group. Also a lot of the content besides raiding could be tanked by an SK or Pally. Though again I agree they could have used a little love or at least could have had their own strengths that stood out against certain damage types etc in place of their weaker overall tanking ability due to not having all the "oh ****" buttons that warriors had.
So while I don't want any classes to not be needed/desired(lolrangers), the all need to be unique enough that when you are at the character selection screen it's a really hard choice if you want to play x class or even y race or any combination of the two. A deep race/class system like that will provide a lot more enjoyment in the long run and bring out some great emergent game play. It will also provide re-playability where you wouldn't mind starting over as you really want to see what it's like to play x class or x race. It will also give those other people who want a much different type of play style compared to others.
I think people are focusing on "class balance" a little too much here. Not sure about the rest of you, but one of the biggest things I miss about Everquest is that not every class was balanced. There were clear differences between them. Everyone knew that Paladins in EQ weren't the greatest raid tanks (at least prior to Luclin?). Everyone knew Rangers sucked. Everyone knew Warrior's couldn't solo a puma confidently. That's one of the things that made EQ stand out - classes weren't balanced.
Unless I'm missing the point here, and ya'll are using a different definition of "class balance". In my mind, that much focus belongs only on a PvP-centric game, which Pantheon will not be.
Syntro said:In a recent theorycraft post of mine titled "The Origin of Classes in Pantheon" I suggested the possibility of races having independently evolved classes while on their homeworlds prior to being deposited on Terminus. The effects of living in the shared environment of Terminus effectively densified and redefined the classes in a "melting pot" sort of manner, resulting in the classses we have today. Coupling my theorycraft with the fact that we know that the development team is implementing the Living Codex system, where powerful spells obtained from Prime Scrolls are obtainable throughout Terminus, leads me to a fun speculation.
What if some of the Prime Scrolls found on Terminus were otherworldy, ancient reminants containing spells developed from the ancestors of specific races?
I think it would be awesome if there were race/class specific spells that tied directly to the lore of each class. Gnome wizards could have exclusive access to the spell Elos Flare while Halfling Druids could be the only ones able to cast Kiren's Flame. This would be a really neat way to tie in the lore of the classes to magic and give an extra significance to the already important choice of your race/class combination. Depending on it's impact, it could also act as a way of creating an even more focused group interdependency where maybe specific race/class combos are necessary for particular dungeons. More importantly, this could also serve as a means to dissuade players solely focusing on the phenomenon of min/maxing. "Well sure, you are a Ogre Shaman that is innately more stun resistant, but as a Skar Shaman I eventually can cast Aza'gn Might which makes my whole group stun resistant!"
We already have innate racial abilities based on physique, racial armors and weapons based on culture, why not racial spells and abilities based on lore?
What do you guys think?
Syntro said:
"Well sure, you are a Ogre Shaman that is innately more stun resistant, but as a Skar Shaman I eventually can cast Aza'gn Might which makes my whole group stun resistant!"
LeonSanborn said:So we all know that each race comes from their own planet and have a different story and background of how they got to that stage.
So what if we went on the route of for example. Gnomes! They delved so deep into Arcane magic that they literally became Ethereal beings that enchants their souls to special garmets, what if we give gnomes like a 1% or even 2% magic bonus on Acana spells.
I mean we could really do this with each race; because think about each race growing up on different planets having different needs. So these races learned and developed in specific spells or arch-types faster than others. This incorporates Lore and Race into the classes. Granted this still leads to a slight "mix/maxing" but even if it does, not by much.
Or we could go the route of, (once again ill use the Gnomes! as an example). Gnomes might have more Arcane magic spells available compared to another race and would need to "adventure" like they said you would in the latest streams to obtain the rest of your spellset.. So if you want arcana spells you would go to the Gnomish settlement to sell and buy wares. The Skar would have more Tank/Brawler type abilties compared to some other races etcetc. So this not only forces players to incorporate visiting other settlements and raising their faction with them but also helps with inter-player trading.
"/Shouts Anyone selling a Level 2 Wizard Acana Spell? Willing to buy for 1silver-piece"
Could even go upon the route of a race doing more damage with 1 arch-type compared to another. Gnomes doing more Arcana damage but with limited knowledge of how to use Fire based spells or something along those lines. Each race could have something that played a part in their lore and growth to use as a reason why their race would be more "Adept" at such skills, spells, or features.
The problem I see is that something like giving gnomes +% damage to spells wouldn't really fall into a racial trait in the sense of something innate to every gnome upon birth.
Maybe I am looking at it wrong but I've always viewed racial banes and boons to be things innate to every member of the race, something they are born with and always have regardless of their path in life. Things like trolls having enhanced regeneration but a weakness to fire, dark elves with ultravision, elves with infravision, or lizardfolk with bonus ac (scales) and fire resist but weakness to cold.
This is a curious problem. The base mechanics for the casting classes are same across races. An orc Shaman vs a Human. I would think that the race base spells would be the same but with different visuals. The hard part would be balancing over the range of classes and race variants. This could be a very difficult thing to implement across the classes. I am wondering if auras may be a better solution here. The same casting abilities but with bonuses or decreased stats in some cases with various effects to bolster the casting arsenals.
I like the idea of this because of the depth of character building it could provide.
Ox
Iksar said:LeonSanborn said:So we all know that each race comes from their own planet and have a different story and background of how they got to that stage.
So what if we went on the route of for example. Gnomes! They delved so deep into Arcane magic that they literally became Ethereal beings that enchants their souls to special garmets, what if we give gnomes like a 1% or even 2% magic bonus on Acana spells.
I mean we could really do this with each race; because think about each race growing up on different planets having different needs. So these races learned and developed in specific spells or arch-types faster than others. This incorporates Lore and Race into the classes. Granted this still leads to a slight "mix/maxing" but even if it does, not by much.
Or we could go the route of, (once again ill use the Gnomes! as an example). Gnomes might have more Arcane magic spells available compared to another race and would need to "adventure" like they said you would in the latest streams to obtain the rest of your spellset.. So if you want arcana spells you would go to the Gnomish settlement to sell and buy wares. The Skar would have more Tank/Brawler type abilties compared to some other races etcetc. So this not only forces players to incorporate visiting other settlements and raising their faction with them but also helps with inter-player trading.
"/Shouts Anyone selling a Level 2 Wizard Acana Spell? Willing to buy for 1silver-piece"
Could even go upon the route of a race doing more damage with 1 arch-type compared to another. Gnomes doing more Arcana damage but with limited knowledge of how to use Fire based spells or something along those lines. Each race could have something that played a part in their lore and growth to use as a reason why their race would be more "Adept" at such skills, spells, or features. Because having each civilization knowing each spell and how to cast it the exact same way as another civilization that grew up on a whole other planet with whole other needs and desires seems wrong. if you know what I mean?
The problem I see is that something like giving gnomes +% damage to spells wouldn't really fall into a racial trait in the sense of something innate to every gnome upon birth.
Maybe I am looking at it wrong but I've always viewed racial banes and boons to be things innate to every member of the race, something they are born with and always have regardless of their path in life. Things like trolls having enhanced regeneration but a weakness to fire, dark elves with ultravision, elves with infravision, or lizardfolk with bonus ac (scales) and fire resist but weakness to cold.
From a lore POV, everyone's magic is somewhat the same, so what would justify a race to have specific spells no other can learn ? It could barely work for clerics, due to their dependance to old scrolls infused with magic, but what would it bring? Race flavor ? More interesting in animation / particles than spell lines. If I remember right, in EQ1 clerics were able to bless ingots based on their cult, and if I remember right, some deity quest lines had interesting or good items to share for some classes, and some had none (Clinging darkness necklace clicky for priest, as an example) and it ended favoring an inch for theses races, while some had just no questline at all.
Either mandatory or marginal spells, and more incentive to choose one race over another. Racial passives will be way enough to do the bidding.
LeonSanborn said:
So I find this just kinda hard to convey, so I apologize if it's kinda confusing as to what I was trying to get across.
But I personally think that the class "Wizard" would have different spells and how they were developed and how focused they were on their own planet. Each race grew up with their own definition of each class is. I.E. Gnomes grew up around Arcana magic more than anything else or as far was we know from the Lore. So it would make sense for a Gnome to be more Adept at Arcana magic and have more Arcana Spells at their disposal comparative to another form of magic.
So lets say you are the Halflings growing up in a meadow or a forest, so they over time developed Nature magic more naturally and it became a way of life to study and develop nature magic spells to benefit the race comparatively to the Gnomes where the Gnomes as a species studies Arcana Magic to an extent they lost their physical forms. So a Gnome meeting a Halfling using Nature Magic might be something Completely new to the Gnomes, and respectively the same with Halflings.
Sure they are in a kind of Melting Pot now with every race being thrown onto the same world, but wouldn't a race that developed and focused a Spell "Arch-Type" have more spells to their disposal or a bonus? Granted that they have focused so strongly into that arch-type another magic form may not be available to them. SO the gnomes may be Super good at casting Arcana Magic but suuper bad at casting Nature or Fire magic.. or something along those lines.
I see the thought behind it but I'd propose a different way to look at it. Think of magic like elements in the real world: H2O is H2O or iron is iron whether you are on Earth or a planet millions of light-years away. So magic is magic no matter where and it likely has "rules" or "laws" associated with it (however understood or not) much like how the laws of physics apply no matter where you are in our universe, so a gnome studying the arcane on their planet would be learning the same/similar things (however fast or slow comparatively) to an elf on an entirely different planet also studying the arcane. They would be playing with the same tools making similar observations in due time.
So it's possible that gnome wizards learned some different or more in-depth/focused spells while at the same time elves might also have figured out some spells that never occured to the gnomes, but a fair amount of their knowledge would stand to overlap. The thing is that all the races have been on the same planet for 365 years now (some have been together much longer) so it's very likely most, if not all (as the curiosity and studious nature inherent to those touched by magic would lend itself to exchanges of knowledge), relevant magical knowledge has been shared between arcane communities. Those that have been kept secret would come to players regardless of race via seeking out those rare masters in the world and likely proving themselves worthy/responsible enough to learn them.
Arcane/arcana magic includes most types of spell (fire/frost/shock/energy/etc) but is not a type of its own...it is the tree from which most other branches come from (Divine being another "tree" which draws from a generally different source, namely power from deities).
I understand the point of the OP to be along the lines of Racial Specialty, yes, but still achievable by other classes not of that race.
What came to mind was an interesting thing about the burst of flame spell in old EQ. It is a level 1 mage spell but a shaman couldn't get it until 45? or something? this was back in the old days. I remember a shaman asking me about it and we both wondered and laughed why it was level 1 for me but a much higher level for him.
I associated the OP's post along these lines, where the gnomes would have arcana type spells already available to them but halflings would have tricksy type spells for them. All magic being the same and coming form the same source would not preclude the halfling from learning the arcane based spells of the gnomes, likewise the gnomes to the tricksy type spells of the halflings, it would just be what type of spell they had at a certain time and possibly contribute to more proficiency in one attribute over the other.
So a gnome starting out with arcane would have their arcane skill built up rather quickly and would have to work on the tricksy magic once found- but could still cast the same tricksy spell but might not be as effective untill the skill for that magic type got improved through use of the gnome.
I personally hate the idea of race specific abilities and classes. Maybe classes that only certain races can be or hell im fine even with how monk could only be used by humans and iksar in EQ1, but race specific classes is a more annoying version of gender locking. Race specific abilities are a gimick and feel cheap. the abilities are always useless later down the road and quite frankly just stupid imo. Race specific attributes such as ogres having the most strength, elves or gnomes having the most intelligence is fine. Stats are fine mainly because you can overcome difficulties with items. Race specific abilities on the other hand require scaling and balance and are quite frankly a nightmare for something that is nothing but a gimick that wont be used later down the road.
Squall said:I personally hate the idea of race specific abilities and classes. Maybe classes that only certain races can be or hell im fine even with how monk could only be used by humans and iksar in EQ1, but race specific classes is a more annoying version of gender locking. Race specific abilities are a gimick and feel cheap. the abilities are always useless later down the road and quite frankly just stupid imo. Race specific attributes such as ogres having the most strength, elves or gnomes having the most intelligence is fine. Stats are fine mainly because you can overcome difficulties with items. Race specific abilities on the other hand require scaling and balance and are quite frankly a nightmare for something that is nothing but a gimick that wont be used later down the road.
Can't say I see where you are coming from here. In WoW racial abilities were definately usable later down the road, particularly human's extra trinket slot. Skyrim abilities like iksar regeneration are also always useful throughout the game unless you break it with sneak or blacksmithing.
Either way, this is Pantheon. If they built the racial abilities right (or broken strong) then those abilities would definately be useful later on. An ability which regens 25% of your health instantly would always be useful unless you get so strong you no longer take damage.
I'm also not quite catching on to how a racial power could be cheaper or more of a gimmick then any other perk or talent a character has based on class, quests done, potions owned, etc. Would you care to explain?
EDIT: It's a little late but...I meant "Argonian regeneration" not "Iksar regeneration".
BeaverBiscuit said:Squall said:I personally hate the idea of race specific abilities and classes. Maybe classes that only certain races can be or hell im fine even with how monk could only be used by humans and iksar in EQ1, but race specific classes is a more annoying version of gender locking. Race specific abilities are a gimick and feel cheap. the abilities are always useless later down the road and quite frankly just stupid imo. Race specific attributes such as ogres having the most strength, elves or gnomes having the most intelligence is fine. Stats are fine mainly because you can overcome difficulties with items. Race specific abilities on the other hand require scaling and balance and are quite frankly a nightmare for something that is nothing but a gimick that wont be used later down the road.
Can't say I see where you are coming from here. In WoW racial abilities were definately usable later down the road, particularly human's extra trinket slot. Skyrim abilities like iksar regeneration are also always useful throughout the game unless you break it with sneak or blacksmithing.
Either way, this is Pantheon. If they built the racial abilities right (or broken strong) then those abilities would definately be useful later on. An ability which regens 25% of your health instantly would always be useful unless you get so strong you no longer take damage.
I'm also not quite catching on to how a racial power could be cheaper or more of a gimmick then any other perk or talent a character has based on class, quests done, potions owned, etc. Would you care to explain?
One, because this game isnt meant to appeal to WoW players. Even WoW vanilla doesnt compare to the games the target audience enjoyed. Iksar regeneration was useful in the short term but not in the long. At low levels you saw a difference (which eventually became moot but thats beside the point).
The only way to make racial abilities and not traits, let me reiterate that, abilities and not traits, is to make an ability that is gimmicky. Why? Because when you balance there will always be some way for the other races to match that ability (because lets face it with balancing you have to eventually). Lets use eq 1 as an example. Ogre's had the most strength out of everyone. By end game this didn't matter because everyone had gear that capped that stat anyways. Iksar and trolls had regen but again, this had diminishing returns as the game went on and by end game was irrelevany due to regeneration items. Moving on from this if you were to tweak the abilities to be stronger you run into the issue of imbalance and there being one good race for one good thing. This creates two problems. First we see an exmpale in EQ1 again with tinkering. Only gnomes could do it and what was the result? an ability that did some cool but ultimately worthless things. Why? Because you cant just give a single race an ability to do something because it throws off the balance and restricts gameplay too much. I dont deny that tinkering COULD be useful but its uses were very restricted and ultimately cost more than the alternatives. Really in the end you run into subpar abilities that have to be subpar in order to keep them from being OP. Or you end up with abilities you use from day one to end game which is horribly boring. Theres more but i have been drinking so...
I would really like to see some interesting racials, maybe you could choose a set of racial traits and/or abilities at character creation you want to have on your character. Since not every Elf might be a born caster some might be better at magic some better in combat but they have theyre own ways to show it.An Elf could be more agile or easier to heal.
An Ogre could be stronger sturdier just name any racial traits/abilities that come to mind when you imagine that race and add a few to choose at start.
Try to make them more or less balanced vs game mechanics it doesnt have to be 100%. I always loved games that add alot of flavour in this way.
If you ask me an Ogre should be stronger and sturdier then an Elf ...but the Elf has his own ways to make up for it. Same with all other races, some traits/abilities are more likely to find on a race then others. Lore wise your races need to have traits/abilities that are class defining for your races. If an Ogre can be Druid there needs to be some affinity aviable for it.
if its possible to find enough interesting traits/abilities for your races and have them more or less balanced so not one trait/abilitie defines the whole game it would be really cool.
I loved how Iksar had some regen and more AC in EQ just sad it only made like a 0.1% difference at the end some more impact would have been cool.
Squall said:The only way to make racial abilities and not traits, let me reiterate that, abilities and not traits, is to make an ability that is gimmicky. Why? Because when you balance there will always be some way for the other races to match that ability (because lets face it with balancing you have to eventually). Lets use eq 1 as an example. Ogre's had the most strength out of everyone. By end game this didn't matter because everyone had gear that capped that stat anyways. Iksar and trolls had regen but again, this had diminishing returns as the game went on and by end game was irrelevany due to regeneration items. Moving on from this if you were to tweak the abilities to be stronger you run into the issue of imbalance and there being one good race for one good thing...
Not exactly gimmicky. Some races are just better for some classes from a min/max perspective with racial traits, but not to the degree others can't also do the same job or wouldn't be wanted. Ogre in EQ were the best warriors thanks to frontal stun immunity and high starting STR/STA (letting them hit the softcap much easier and focus on other stats), but other warriors could still tank just about anything in the game without too much issue. Iksar/troll regen made them better shamans and Iksar the best necromancers due to the regen doing a lot more to offset the HP drains from things like cannibalize and especially lich form. Halfling/Dark Elf were the "better" Clerics thanks to having racial Hide/Sneak (just hide for DE), giving them a bit more security when in a camp meditating (or doing corpse runs for Halflings with hide/sneak).
They don't have to be a gimmick or OP, they can be balanced to give small advantages in certain situations.
I literally said traits are ok.... TRAITS not abilities. I said traits were fine but abilities were crap. How many times do i have to say that? Honestly do you guys even read the comments you respond to?
I prefer giving races different flavors of the same spell in SOME situations where it's appropriate as opposed to making certain spells only available to a specific class-race combo. For example, I would love it if Shaman of each race got a unique pet instead of everyone having a wolf.
zoltar said:I prefer giving races different flavors of the same spell in SOME situations where it's appropriate as opposed to making certain spells only available to a specific class-race combo. For example, I would love it if Shaman of each race got a unique pet instead of everyone having a wolf.
zoltar said:I prefer giving races different flavors of the same spell in SOME situations where it's appropriate as opposed to making certain spells only available to a specific class-race combo. For example, I would love it if Shaman of each race got a unique pet instead of everyone having a wolf.
That's how beastlords in EQ1 already work. Different races call different beasts, and do so from the opening bell.
If Pantheon does include racial stuff, it should be mostly cosmetic and not some "must have on raid or you are useless" level of importace. Like giving Dark Elves faerie fire for marking invis, iksar/trolls getting an extra amount of regen, humans getting plus to rep gains (WoW), etc. Nothing game breaking, but minor stuff to make the races more unique.
I entirely agree that some abilities should work differently for different races. Ability to have different pets, or to ride different mounts, is a classic example.
I like the idea of what race you pick making more than a cosmetic difference, however. No race should be so much better at anything that groups won't want any other race, but choosing a race should mean more than whether a pet class gets a wolf or a tiger, each of which does exactly the same thing.
Ideally, in my mind, this overlaps with the ideas discussed in the specialization threads.
Take an archer class. Maybe one race is stronger and gets extra range on its shots and can shoot more often with a crossbow. Maybe another race is more dextrous and has better accuracy and ability to dodge incoming missiles. Racial differences do not have to mean one race is *better* for a particular class they can mean that it is *different*.
dorotea said:I entirely agree that some abilities should work differently for different races. Ability to have different pets, or to ride different mounts, is a classic example.
I like the idea of what race you pick making more than a cosmetic difference, however. No race should be so much better at anything that groups won't want any other race, but choosing a race should mean more than whether a pet class gets a wolf or a tiger, each of which does exactly the same thing.
Ideally, in my mind, this overlaps with the ideas discussed in the specialization threads.
Take an archer class. Maybe one race is stronger and gets extra range on its shots and can shoot more often with a crossbow. Maybe another race is more dextrous and has better accuracy and ability to dodge incoming missiles. Racial differences do not have to mean one race is *better* for a particular class they can mean that it is *different*.
Good example of what you are talking about is in Anarchy Online and the I-beam as a weapon. Decently above average 2HB weapon relative to other 2HB at that same quality level (QL), but only atrox could equip them. Or like SWG, where only wookies could use crossbows, which weren't uber powerful, but just a specific ranged weapon only they could use.