CanadinaXegony said:I really don't understand someone who doesn't get....if a piece of armor drops for a particular class...and its an UPGRADE, it goes to the person that needs that upgrade, not some person in group that wants to sell it for plat or give to their alt. I have been on plenty of adventures, where I didn't expect anything..I went for the fun and cameraderie..and that's why when it comes down to two or three people who could actually use that piece ..then people roll on it. The other thing I find disgusting is those that NEED everything..when in fact they just want to sell it and to heck with the person who could have used it to upgrade. But some choose to be like that. Those very same people gain a rep they won't like either..over time. Play fair, play honest. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
CX, unfortunally the younger gen not in our age groups dont get it and loot as greed to sell. The newer gen felt that all loot random was needed, in order to gain cash.
I have played many different games at different times, to check them out. The same new system comes up all the time. I tried to organize looting rules ahead of time, and it pretty much was aborted by someone saying I greed always, we need cash too.
Unfortunally it is a system that needs to be designed by us. Or by the Devs forcing a looting system in like some games did.
It feels like the concerns over loot may be a bit misplaced in Pantheon. A lot of these ideas/concerns are stemming from games that push personal character growth over everything else; and then set up their systems to accomplish that (casual focused content, anonymous grouping, quick dungeon runs, central AH for mass selling, etc.). This problem has already been solved before this thread even started. No need to do something fancy, or have forced loot options. This is yet another area that has been over-developed since the early days of MMOs. Worry about creating a game that has a great community and let the community take care of it.
In the days before loot systems, ninja-looting and the like was pretty rare. It was nice to see more variation in people's personalities. Character reputation outside of raiding was a real thing, especially on FV where you only had 1 character. The more you devolve interaction and group discussion, the more you hurt, not help the community. More recent games have gotten so bad you don't even want to spend time looting. Just auto-throw-it-in-my-bag and let's get on with the fighting. No talking, no down-time, no discussion, no focus, just mindless grind.
Let me start by saying I strongly agree with all of Iksar's views on what is the appropriate standard for looting systems should be. I also strongly believe EQ had one of the best looting/item systems, if not THE best looting system out of all MMORPGs I have ever played, even better than VG although VG was the sucessor. Let me explain.
First I want to say I have high respect for those of you that believe in NBG being "fair", but in reality, this is rarely the case, there will always be different loot tables, players that know how to use the NBG system for their own benefits, different equippable items for each and every class at various values and in different dungeons and rare monster camps, etc, etc. That being said, if I'm a cleric, why would I be LFG for Dungeon A when all the cleric drops are in Dungeon B? This will inevitably make LFG a hard thing to do and also extremely hard to balance item drops if trying to make them all fair. I'm going to be brutally honest, I'm not going to Dungeon A because I want to help a group of strangers get some super rare high value loot while I have no chance of getting it. But I also don't mind helping friends/guildmates get gear.
I can play a warrior that use half the weapon types available in the game, and I can roll Need for one of each type because technically I do "need" them to level up my slashing, my blunting, my piercing, and then all my 2hand counterparts, would this be fair? Who decides what's fair? It's a pretty simple solution really, we all spend X hours in a party together, and we all work together, then we should all have a chance at any valueable loot, as Iksar mentioned, we can sell/trade it for gear we can use, this easily fixes issues with certain classes favoring certain hunting grounds and making the devs pound their heads into the ground trying to make it fair so classes will spread out evenly.
Some of the games out there use personal looting system and/or RNG stats for BoP/BoE gear. They all just become trash and are not memorable at all, I still remember things like FBSS, Ykesha, JBoots, etc from EQ. I honestly remember none of my gears from WoW. I think obtaining loot together and being proud of what your party obtained as a whole is a pretty good feeling of accomplishment overall and at every stage of leveling in EQ. Also personal loot systems(esp with instances) diminishes the value of using a marketplace, I was always the giddy happy child at a Toys'R'US whenever I enter the marketplace of EQ.
Looking at it from another angle, we don't even know what gear the other players have going into the party, what if the mage's upgrade is only +1 int, while the enchanter's main stat is charisma but he gets +10 int upgrade to his gear? Then what? What if the mage wins it, he sells his old gear for profit? It's not like it's written on his character history anyone can just look at and see that it's unfair or fair.
Bottomline is the group should decide how the loot will be from the start, but the absolute fairest method really is just doing random for the party, lets take it one step further and allow the winner to roll for the next rare item that drops as well, but then he would need to agree to forfeit his previous item and let the others roll for it if he won the 2nd item, it would make life easier to make this all automated too once the party loot option is set. Looking at the big picture, this is more "fair" than any NBG simply because it doesn't matter if you're grouped at a super high value rare item spawn that only druids can use because we've all spend X hours of teamwork getting it. It won't matter that a warrior can use 5000 different weapons and a wizard can only use 100 daggers. It won't matter if they're a scam artist that equips weak gear to be able to roll for loot or if they sold their gear so they can continue getting loot at the same dungeon.
As someone who will be primarily leading groups, I can say that NBG will always be the default option for loot distribution with my groups. I don't see anything wrong with people being able to roll on everything but that is something that would need to be communicated at the beginning of the session. Anybody who thinks FFA should be the default option is probably in for a rude awakening. Again, there is nothing wrong with using the FFA system but that should be the exception rather than the rule. I always thought it was common MMO etiquette to assume that NBG is standard policy. By all means though ... have at it.
Xbachs said:fazool said:I want ninja looting, selling and splitting, running to merchants, arguing and fighting over it....I want FREE WILL.
I agree with this. Everything else is just a way to restrict and dictate who gets what. Let the community sort it out.
I don't play these games for that kind of headache. I want to have fun, not argue with a random idiot over loot distribution. NBG is how it will be in any group I run or am part of or I won't be with that group. And I've been in LOTS of dungeon runs in various games where I didn't get squat cause nothing I needed dropped that day.
dragonpriest said:Xbachs said:fazool said:I want ninja looting, selling and splitting, running to merchants, arguing and fighting over it....I want FREE WILL.
I agree with this. Everything else is just a way to restrict and dictate who gets what. Let the community sort it out.
I don't play these games for that kind of headache. I want to have fun, not argue with a random idiot over loot distribution. NBG is how it will be in any group I run or am part of or I won't be with that group. And I've been in LOTS of dungeon runs in various games where I didn't get squat cause nothing I needed dropped that day.
I would support free for all IF any and all loot were also unbound and could be sold among players. It makes no sense to have people roll for gear that is bound and can't reasonably be used by their class. But if it's unbound, then everyone has a chance either to win it as loot or buy it from players. It would support the economy and reduce the grind. I happen to believe the game and its raids/dungeons should be played for their own sake, not to try for the 100th time to complete a given set.
dragonpriest said:Xbachs said:fazool said:I want ninja looting, selling and splitting, running to merchants, arguing and fighting over it....I want FREE WILL.
I agree with this. Everything else is just a way to restrict and dictate who gets what. Let the community sort it out.
I don't play these games for that kind of headache. I want to have fun, not argue with a random idiot over loot distribution. NBG is how it will be in any group I run or am part of or I won't be with that group. And I've been in LOTS of dungeon runs in various games where I didn't get squat cause nothing I needed dropped that day.
@dragonpriest, I think you've just reinforced the concept of "Let the community sort it out". If you only want to join NBG groups, that's your prerogative. I'll likely be doing the same most of the time.
I believe it's important that the community is allowed to define its own culture and norms for what's considered acceptable behaviour and etiquette in Pantheon. There are going to be players who believe it is their right to roll on every drop, even if they already won the same uber item an hour ago. They'll have alts or guildie's parked nearby to pick up any lore items or generally find a way around any mechanic the devs try to enforce "fair" loot distribution.
Conversely, you'll find altruistic players who strongly believe in NBG and expect everyone else to follow suit.
Either mechanism is "fair", provided the group's loot policy is transparent and defined up front.
Maybe I grew up with different definitions for looting but here's how I define the models.
NBG - Need before greed. An item is a significant upgrade for the character you currently have in the group. One variant is "I have my {specified alt} here in the zone and I'm rolling for that character, but playing my cleric because the group needs heals".
Random - Everyone rolls on every item. One variant is you don't get to roll again until everyone in the group has won something significant, but this is hard to determine in groups where the drop rate is low and the party members are changing.
Round Robin - Everyone takes turns looting, often alphabetically. This usually only applies to the junk/cash drops of lesser value from common mobs.
FFA - Free for all where nobody is tracking loot and party members just pick stuff off corpses. This also normally just applies to the junk/cash drops. Invariably the casters lose out because they need to keep medding and the melee players are already in click range of the corpse as the mob dies.
If you don't trust the people in your group, you need to find new companions and make new friends. Yes, we could ask the devs to build in flags which display or possibly even enforce specific loot locking and relevant rules for the group. Perhaps you feel that the LFG and looking for party member tools should accommodate loot preference? I would suggest to you that good old-fashioned player to player communication is the way around all of this. If there are people who consistently act dishonestly, let them become outcasts with their reputation sullied accordingly.
When I receive an invite to join a group, I would expect the leader to fill me in on the group's disposition. "Hey, Celandor. Want to come to Scaryplace and help us get Aradune a pair of Magic Fuzzy Mittens? Zone has decent caster drops and we're doing NBG on all other loot."
I can make my own decisions about whether I'm OK with Aradune getting the first drop of the legendary mittens and whether I want to participate in a NBG group. It's all up front, therefore it's fair by definition because I'm accepting the terms of the group.
We don't need enforced mechanics or GM dictated rules for every aspect of play. We just need to learn to communicate.
daserack said:Yes Looting does rule!
I'm so jaded with seeing the same ye olde loot arguments being discussed. Personally I would rather see everyone have their own personal loot table which is private so no one can see what dropped for you. It may even have a positive impact on raids with no ninja looting or toxic guild loot point systems.
dragonpriest said:NBG is how it will be in any group I run or am part of or I won't be with that group.
Totally. And if that is your perogative, there will be a lot of people to play with who agree with you, including myself. But I also want the freedom to do something else if I want to. I don't want there to be superficial restrictions because I want the community to work together to keep people honest. To me the risk of getting ninja'd on occasion is worth it I guess.
Ya going for an epic piece spend 100's of hours at and some joe walks in OH ill greed that and sell it to someone for insane amounts of coin. There is no respect for anyone anymore trying to finish a hard earned object.
This is why people also went to bot.... NP screw me on it? ill load up my own group and do it. No need to random against a tank over a caster item that you spend too much time over.
Its a never ending story with the greedy players out there.
Think that stopped me? nope i botted 12 toons in EQ. ill do it again if forced.
Greed is taking an item over your group who just put in the same time/effort because you "need" it (you just really want it). Taking an item worth 5k (or any sizeable chunk of money) on a server because you "need" it over letting the group roll on it and whoever wins do as they please is total BS. I don't play games to gear out other people and I don't believe most people do, the world isn't full of altruists and neither are online games. If you are grouped with friends or guild members sure do whatever but pick up groups? Everyone rolls makes sense, unless you want to be taken advantage of or have camps be harder to find people for since no tanks/healers want to spend hours camping a rare spawn that drops nothing for them.
Can't take advantage of everyone having an equal shot with /roll but you most definitely can take advantage or people just passing off loot because someone "needs" it.
Iksar said:Greed is taking an item over your group who just put in the same time/effort because you "need" it (you just really want it). Taking an item worth 5k (or any sizeable chunk of money) on a server because you "need" it over letting the group roll on it and whoever wins do as they please is total BS. I don't play games to gear out other people and I don't believe most people do, the world isn't full of altruists and neither are online games. If you are grouped with friends or guild members sure do whatever but pick up groups? Everyone rolls makes sense, unless you want to be taken advantage of or have camps be harder to find people for since no tanks/healers want to spend hours camping a rare spawn that drops nothing for them.
Can't take advantage of everyone having an equal shot with /roll but you most definitely can take advantage or people just passing off loot because someone "needs" it.
I can't count how many friends I made over the years using NBG in PUG's. If you would rather sell something for 5k than have a tank added to your friends list more power to you. Just remember that same tank will likely bring you along for plenty of future groups where you'll get anything you need. Playing in PUG's has never lasted long for me. Within a month of starting any game my friends list would be packed with players that are eager to group up. I think it would have been a very different story if I looked at players as a commodity or a means to an end. I have played through plenty of farming sessions where loot was settled as FFA ... these were almost always scenarios where everybody in the group were close friends who already had everything they needed. When you have friends who are willing to commit to helping you achieve anything and everything you need, worrying about ninja looters or people rolling need on something they plan on selling is the least of your concerns. You'll also see plenty of opportunities to win a high ticket item that can be sold for a nice payday.
I think the driving force behind my opinion is based on EQ's market/PUG meta. EQ was a very different animal than most MMOs as far as loot is concerned. If I had't played EQ, I would probably say that NBG should be the common rule for PUGs. But having played a decent bit of EQ, and hoping that gear in Pantheon will be as rare/valuable as it was in EQ, I would expect PUGs to behave in much the same way they did in EQ. It was the simplest, fairest way to handle loot, and it keeps everyone excited for drops. I'd rather not have my group arguing about whether the chain-wearing cleric can "need" that expensive leather tunic meant for a druid, or a rogue "need" a 1k plat bracer that has 2 more agi and 10 more HP than the bracer he's wearing when some other members of the group might not even have a net worth (all their gear combined) of 1k plat. It just becomes very hairy, and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg here. These things weren't an issue in most games because loot was commonplace and--in the grand scheme of things--not worth a whole lot. And people were upgrading stuff every few levels or easily able to craft their own stuff. NBG wasn't a big deal in these games, and the shennanigans were typically kept to a minimum. I don't plan to do a whole lot of PUGing, so I'll probably be doing a lot of NBG, but I do suspect that most PUGs will just /random everything of value.
i'm more a NBG guys but i can understand the point of view of "everyone can roll on anything".
for me the important thing is to have the groupmembers informed when they join a group. if it's all FFA fine, i know what i am getting.
it sucks when an fbss drops and then you get informed that it's NBG (as a caster). it equally sucks when the fbss drops and the melee dps gets informed that everyone can roll on it (when he thought it's NBG), etc. let people know what loot rules apply before they camp x hours with you and the drama beginns.
since i normally start my own group and make masterlooter, we normally do NBG. Also let's say the melee dps gets an FBSS, he wont be allowed to roll on any further valuable drops until everyone got something too. of course with PUGs this leads to that behavior that often they left the group when they got something. sometimes when we were grinding in guk for hours and everyone but 1 person got something valueable i decided, that the next valuable will be reserved for that person, even when a replacement joined the group.
my group, my rules. but people must be informed accordingly when joining or even better before joining a group.
I think the terms are a bit misunderstood. Need before greed works for most modern MMORPGs as the norm since they're not really that rare with instances and all, but NBG does NOT automatically make everything else to be considered as greed, in fact, I might argue NBG is the opposite and call it greed. Think about it, why does that 1 person deserve the (unbound)loot more than anybody else? If one were NOT greedy, then why not allow everyone in the party to roll? Like some have mentioned, there's really no such thing as Need, I mean anyone can "Need" the plate bracers, but why do they need it? Does the game require them to beat a quest boss and it's not possible without those bracers? Are they not able to advance in the game without it? I've played on a new server as a Necro and duo with a Mage friend from level 1 to level 50 easily in Vanilla EQ, we had maybe 500plat worth of gear at most, we were top 50 fastest on the server, point being we didn't really "Need" gear, of course we wanted it though.
Also as a strong believer of fair game for rare loot, I found absolutely no issue with making friends in-game, I've played with all kinds of loot styles and am okay with most of them most of the time provided they're agreed upon the time the group is formed. The only real issue I had other than with ninja looters in EQ(most modern games solved this issue with an automated pre-set looting system), is honestly with NBG, there were plenty of times when players were not allowed to roll because they decided someone else deserved it more, for example, a dodge warrior rolling on a +20 agility amulet VS a rogue when the rogue gets a +15 agi upgrade while the warrior only gets +2 agi upgrade, but like I've mentioned, who decides who gets this loot? They both put in the time and effort into the party for it. I played a Ret Pally in Vanilla WoW before Ret Pally was a thing and I was discriminated against, I wasn't allowed to roll for Str items and 2Handed swords even when topping the DPS charts, this was with NBG raids, obviously I went in knowing it's NBG, but it's not like they will announce every single piece of gear for every single class at the beginning of the raid... that's just not practical. Another example is a plate user that doesn't invite any other plate users to the party, I've seen it happen, and it only happens in NBG groups, I'm not saying any of you will do this, but it WILL happen in an NBG enironment and they could even be the nicest person you've ever met, it's not difficult to be a fake nice guy in the virtual world without anyone knowing.
I left EQ before the advanced looting system some have mentioned so I'm a bit curious with that one. Anyway with that all said, I'm confident VR will give us a great looting system and maintain actual "rarity" of the items. Seems like with most games today, loot rarity is just a title/color and doesn't actually indicate the item's rarity.
NBG is great until some rando joins your group, gets 2 items and then leaves. This is fluid, people claiming there is a single best solution to every situation aren't thinking the whole thing through.
The bottom line is to be cool, have balance in the sacrifices you make for strangers, make friends, and avoid putting yourself in situations where some douche will take advantage of you. There's no game enforced loot rule that will protect you and make the best decisions at all times.
I think I disagree with most of the recent comments. Oh well - no harm in disagreements as long as we argue the issue and don't attack eachother.
To me the ideal system is where if gear drops - and I am only referring to gear that can be equipped - anyone that can use it for the character actually rolling can roll "need" and anyone that cannot use it for the character actually rolling cannot roll need.
Groups of friends or guildmates can make almost any loot system work. Including this one. If the gear is bound nothing much matters to the people than cannot use it - they couldn't sell it for large amounts or give it to alts to use anyway. If the gear is not bound whoever gets it can give it to whoever else he or she feels should have it.
My concern is PUGs. I do NOT, repeat NOT, want the "freedom" for everyone to be a douche in a PUG. I will join a PUG a lot faster if I know that the plate mail of uberosity that would be an enormous upgrade for me cannot be rolled on by a cloth using character so that he or she can sell it to a merchant for 20 copper pieces. I have been in many many PUGs over many many MMOs. I am convinced that we will get people to group with eachother in Pantheon a lot more easily if we impose some reasonable rules and do NOT say "pure anarchy is best the community will work it out". Getting people to group with strangers not just friends is one of our goals - I believe a good loot system is more likely to encourage this than anything goes.
On bound gear the potential benefit of people that actually need the gear having priority for it is compelling. It is just store trash for everyone else.
On unbound gear I understand the point that someone that can't use it put in as much effort as anyone else and should have the chance to sell it for a fortune or give it to an alt. So my second choice is a system of strict need before greed on bound gear only.
On unbound gear either anyone can roll, or if it is worth the extra complexity - either the leader or a group vote can choose between NBG or anyone can roll for unbound gear.
This post assumes the game will have both types of gear which is not yet certain.
dorotea said:On bound gear the potential benefit of people that actually need the gear having priority for it is compelling. It is just store trash for everyone else.
On unbound gear I understand the point that someone that can't use it put in as much effort as anyone else and should have the chance to sell it for a fortune or give it to an alt. So my second choice is a system of strict need before greed on bound gear only.
On unbound gear either anyone can roll, or if it is worth the extra complexity - either the leader or a group vote can choose between NBG or anyone can roll for unbound gear.
This post assumes the game will have both types of gear which is not yet certain.
I never remember this being an issue in EQ where someone takes an upgrade from someone that they themselves couldn't use due to it being No-Drop (Soulbound), because items that were No-Drop couldn't even be vendored so they would very often just rot or people announce the drop in zone chat so if someone is looking for the item they could loot it.
Crazzie said:Ya going for an epic piece spend 100's of hours at and some joe walks in OH ill greed that and sell it to someone for insane amounts of coin. There is no respect for anyone anymore trying to finish a hard earned object.
How about some personal responsibility? If you have spent 100s of hours on something, you probably shouldn't invite some random dude you dont trust into your group.
Also, why are people so focused on their F4T L3WTZ all of a sudden? Did we forget why there was such a huge outcry for a more hardcore, intelligent, community based game? Seriously if loot is all you care about there are plenty of other games you can play.