Hokanu said:Grimix said: if a group decidee to go after a named that only drops loot for a warrior, is the warrior honestly entitled to the loot just because he's the warrior when 5 other people put just as much effort in downing the mob? I honestly think it's best to let the group sort out who gets what. Say no to NBG!I am a bit unsure about your position in this situation here, but i'm going to go ahead and say.. No of course the warrior isnt automatically and blindly entitled if thats what you mean but he would surely be consulted 1st right? And given the weapon if he can use it and it is an upgrade?
If that wasnt the outcome i'd be arguing for it to be that way on his behalf. After that go at it and roll away for the opportunity to win or see if people in the group are happy to give it to the dude who is struggling badly with equipment. Hopefully i would have group mates who want to see loot go to the people who need it first.
I can see how my wording is a bit off, but in that scenario I do not believe the warrior has any stake to the gear just because he is a warrior. Even if it's an upgrade for him, why should he alone be entitled to spoils? The fairest way to handle loot distribution would be to sell everything and split gold evenly but since thats not really a viable option for PUG's I think it's better to let the loot fall to the RNG gods. The warrior can claim to need the upgrade because it dropped, but if the item sells for 5k and the wizard needs 5k to purchase his next upgrade why wouldn't he have a valid claim to the loot?
I'm not saying that a group can't decide to give the warrior the loot, I'm just against any automated system that would prioritize a class over another like the need/greed/pass systems in current mmo's.
It's been so long since I played a game with tradeable gear that has any value dropping, that I an hardly argue for anything. I got used to the NBG system due to most MMO shifting to nodrop gear everythwere, and my recent plays on P99 were in a range where dropped stuff was useless due to twinking beeing some sort of norm.
How would I react to an upgrade beeing won by a mage because he wants to sell it for personnal benefit / gear upgrade ? Probably bad.
Would It be a legitimate reaction ? Probably not.
Grimix said:Hokanu said:Grimix said: if a group decidee to go after a named that only drops loot for a warrior, is the warrior honestly entitled to the loot just because he's the warrior when 5 other people put just as much effort in downing the mob? I honestly think it's best to let the group sort out who gets what. Say no to NBG!I am a bit unsure about your position in this situation here, but i'm going to go ahead and say.. No of course the warrior isnt automatically and blindly entitled if thats what you mean but he would surely be consulted 1st right? And given the weapon if he can use it and it is an upgrade?
If that wasnt the outcome i'd be arguing for it to be that way on his behalf. After that go at it and roll away for the opportunity to win or see if people in the group are happy to give it to the dude who is struggling badly with equipment. Hopefully i would have group mates who want to see loot go to the people who need it first.
I can see how my wording is a bit off, but in that scenario I do not believe the warrior has any stake to the gear just because he is a warrior. Even if it's an upgrade for him, why should he alone be entitled to spoils? The fairest way to handle loot distribution would be to sell everything and split gold evenly but since thats not really a viable option for PUG's I think it's better to let the loot fall to the RNG gods. The warrior can claim to need the upgrade because it dropped, but if the item sells for 5k and the wizard needs 5k to purchase his next upgrade why wouldn't he have a valid claim to the loot?
I'm not saying that a group can't decide to give the warrior the loot, I'm just against any automated system that would prioritize a class over another like the need/greed/pass systems in current mmo's.
Ahh, i'm with ya, and I your last line spells it out for me perfectly! Its all about choices and automated is the key word here for me anyways. Chosing Need or Greed from a program popup takes away the human touch, the conversation, the interaction and the essence of the game as i see it. We can have a need before greed discussion and a player has to specifically choose to lie to his group mates whom they might have formed a rapport with. I think having to actually lie instead of just click need on an automated system may well alter the incidence of deceitful behaviour and create a better community!
Of course VR giving an option to choose a loot type at the beginning would be best for everyone as always :)
The only way to prevent ninjalooting is to use master looter and have group leader personally deliver the item to each person after doing a /roll or /random against eachother.
All other loot systems will either be too convoluted or complex to work properly. If a Warrior has a 1H-sword he uses as a tank in the group then who are you to say he doesn't need it? He might need it for soloing or for whenever there are two Warriors in the group and he needs to do damage rather than absorb it.
All need/greed systems are vulnerable to the people who thinks "Need" also applies if it is an item they can use for their alternate characters, their brother, their wife, their friend on Facebook or their cat. Avoiding those types of situations is a simple matter of the group leader laying down the rules for the looting when forming the group or adding new members. It's pretty simple to say "We are not using Need for crafting mats and alts".
However, my impression of online gamers over the recent years is that people have some form of digital social anxiety towards making decisions, stating rules or otherwise engage with other players at all.
People who press Need on everything will quickly get warned first, kicked and shitlisted second. At least in my groups. Am I too strict or am I just "raised" using the regular Need/Greed rulesets of Everquest?
I don't understand the need to make complex automated "estimate worth of whatever person pressing Need is currently using" systems.
If you are worried about ninja's then set your loot settings to Master Looter and handle the loot personally.
It really is that simple.
Grimix said: NBG would only work if most gear is bind on pick up where gear either goes to vendor or to a player to wear but is not sellable or tradeable for a real profit. Personally I'm hoping we won't be flooded with trash and useless items like in most mmo's, I think we need to get our mindset away from what works in the treadmill genre. If the majority of the loot in this game is tradable/sellable, than everybody has a need for whatever drops.
If things could be bought or sold on a market at true value, then splitting loot equally would make sense. But that is not true in practice. Early in the game, Warrior Sword X won't be available on the market at any price. Later, it will be available at a price out of reach of most players. Eventually, when no one wants it anymore, it will be available in large numbers on the market and no one will buy it at any price.
Also, letting the warrior have the sword based on need benefits the entire group immediately.
Hauskat said:Grimix said: NBG would only work if most gear is bind on pick up where gear either goes to vendor or to a player to wear but is not sellable or tradeable for a real profit. Personally I'm hoping we won't be flooded with trash and useless items like in most mmo's, I think we need to get our mindset away from what works in the treadmill genre. If the majority of the loot in this game is tradable/sellable, than everybody has a need for whatever drops.If things could be bought or sold on a market at true value, then splitting loot equally would make sense. But that is not true in practice. Early in the game, Warrior Sword X won't be available on the market at any price. Later, it will be available at a price out of reach of most players. Eventually, when no one wants it anymore, it will be available in large numbers on the market and no one will buy it at any price.
Also, letting the warrior have the sword based on need benefits the entire group immediately.
The way to avoid market being flooded by trash is to make trash useful, e.g. breaking down swords to increase blacksmithing skill or breaking down swords to get metal scraps used for other stuff.
Granted, the drawback with this is that none of these items will be available on the market since those with a bit of money who are leveling up a crafting alt would vacuum the markets for cheap items to use for boosting their crafting alt.
That said, I'd rather see the items get used than flood the market, despite the risk of it being hard to find the item you want for sale due to "vacuuming" by crafters with a sugar-daddy.
>I've never mentioned any items being BoP(bind on pickup) since BoP items requires no debate.<
That is what I think as well. Since so often no one even mentions whether they are discussing freely tradable items versus BoP items I try and toss in a reminder now and then that the anti-NBG comments rarely if ever apply to BoP items.
dorotea said:>I've never mentioned any items being BoP(bind on pickup) since BoP items requires no debate.<
That is what I think as well. Since so often no one even mentions whether they are discussing freely tradable items versus BoP items I try and toss in a reminder now and then that the anti-NBG comments rarely if ever apply to BoP items.
I always found BoP items as well as BoE (Bind on Equip) to be a cheap bandaid solution to an inflated / flooded market.
I'm a firm believer of making items useful in ways that remove them from the game is the better way to go as that keeps market from being flooded as well as generates a market for new players to earn some coin, e.g. if low level swords get salvaged/broken into components needed for crafters to skill up then new players can go out and attempt to find as many of those swords as possible in order to bring them back to those willing to pay.
Making things BoP/BoE creates a non-market for those items rather than stimulate an economy for lower levels and an interaction with higher levels.
In some ways you could compare this to mining in EVE Online. The simplest ores you can get, like Veldspar, is easy to get even for newbies. However it is needed by everyone to build things whether it's the cheapest spaceship or the most expensive, they all require Veldspar (of course in different amounts). But there is ALWAYS a market for Veldspar mining which means there is always a way for even the freshest players to jump in and earn a buck, right from the start and all the way through to having the largest mining vessels.
Again, by making newbie items and loot have a purpose in the doings and makings of things even from low levels up to the high level crafting / building et.c. the items will be in demand and market won't be flooded, but there's always that potential money in it for the new players too.
Hauskat said:Grimix said: NBG would only work if most gear is bind on pick up where gear either goes to vendor or to a player to wear but is not sellable or tradeable for a real profit. Personally I'm hoping we won't be flooded with trash and useless items like in most mmo's, I think we need to get our mindset away from what works in the treadmill genre. If the majority of the loot in this game is tradable/sellable, than everybody has a need for whatever drops.If things could be bought or sold on a market at true value, then splitting loot equally would make sense. But that is not true in practice. Early in the game, Warrior Sword X won't be available on the market at any price. Later, it will be available at a price out of reach of most players. Eventually, when no one wants it anymore, it will be available in large numbers on the market and no one will buy it at any price.
Also, letting the warrior have the sword based on need benefits the entire group immediately.
If you look at my follow up post I clarified my position. I have no objection with allowing the party as a whole to give gear drops to a class that can use it, my opposition is again any automated sysyem design to prioritize one job over another. Loot is loot, it has value, if it takes a full party to take down a named than every member in that party has equal rights to what drops whether they plan to use it or plan to sell it.
However that doesn't mean a party can't decide to give the gear to the one most in need, it's just they shouldn't have a desinged in game right to it is all.
Grimix,
Although I did quote you, my post is a more general commentary on the difficulty of splitting loot proceeds fairly among group members when there is no easy way to monetize it at fair value. That is why this thread is so long. Personally, I prefer to discuss how to split the loot beforehand than use an automated system (except, of course, random roll for rare items that more than one team member can use).
fazool said:EQ1's advanced looting system was an abominable failure and a disaster of epic proportions. It was total garbage. The *ONLY* useful thing it did was prevent you from accidentally looting no-drop items that you could not use.
The system works quite well, I'm not sure why you call it a failure? How people decide to use the system or what loot rules they apply while using the system is a TOTALLY different topic.
IMO the important point is that the system removes the tediousness of having to walk up to any single corpse to loot (if you even can do that, think of mobs stuck in walls etc). This really is a QoL feature for me.
Been reading through these posts and I cannot get past the fact that some people seem to think they have a "right" to any loot that drops even if said loot is an upgrade for a party member. To me, it is unacceptable for a person to take the loot knowing they will sell it on or transfer to an alt when for someone in my group it is an upgrade. The use of "right" in these comments is being used as an entitlement as you aided in the group and "right" can be defined in this way, but can also be defined as moral, justified, or virtuous. To me depriving a fellow player of an upgrade because you feel it's your "right" is contrary to the idea of community and Pantheon.
Options for loot settings? Yes, I like options.
Forced loot settings? No, thank you.
I would like an open free world, free also when it comes to deciding how loot is handled in a group. I am able to discuss these things with other people. I am also able to handle it, if someone decides to be a .... and cheat to loot an item. After all it's just pixels and this person was kind enough to show his/hers true colours and I will react accordingly.
Everybody needs things for different reasons, that's all good, speak up when making/joining a group and agree on how loot it handled (or leave). Then go have fun!
-sorte.
vjek said:As far as when/if solo'ing? Let me hoover everything. Don't even show me, just take it all, all the time, as an option.
This, absolutely, positively, needs to be a staple in every MMO. WHY IS THIS NOT AN OPTION YET?!
It makes no sense to me that it wouldn't be, and it would be such a nice quality of life improvement. When you solo, you flick the toggle on and just kill without having to stop to loot. Please make this a thing, VR.
Tralyan said:vjek said:As far as when/if solo'ing? Let me hoover everything. Don't even show me, just take it all, all the time, as an option.
This, absolutely, positively, needs to be a staple in every MMO. WHY IS THIS NOT AN OPTION YET?!
It makes no sense to me that it wouldn't be, and it would be such a nice quality of life improvement. When you solo, you flick the toggle on and just kill without having to stop to loot. Please make this a thing, VR.
Except if you are farming lowbies mobs, I don't think you're gonna "kill withouth having to stop at all".
Tralyan said:vjek said:As far as when/if solo'ing? Let me hoover everything. Don't even show me, just take it all, all the time, as an option.
This, absolutely, positively, needs to be a staple in every MMO. WHY IS THIS NOT AN OPTION YET?!
It makes no sense to me that it wouldn't be, and it would be such a nice quality of life improvement. When you solo, you flick the toggle on and just kill without having to stop to loot. Please make this a thing, VR.
This is a huge problem in a game with encumbrance and limited storage. If you just let it pick everything up, it'll start leaving things behind that you might have wanted. Next you'll argue that the system should have priority options on what loot to grab first, or what to leave behind, or what to destroy. I'd rather make my own decisions, and leave the rest to decompose.
Only game I can think of right now that did this to me is Factorio; this looting caused me to fill my inventory super fast with crap I didn't want/need, and then eventually start leaving little piles around the floor as I emptied out.
I see many similarities between the comments in this thread (and others) and what I would expect from a clash of cultures. We all have different backgrounds which form our cultural norms and traditions and this extends to our MMO life. The looting rules will either be set and enforced by VR or the community as a whole will have to converge on one or a set of acceptable looting rules. All of the proposed approaches are an attempt to reach a fair solution (Edrick is the exception, lol).
If you suggest NBG as looting rules, but a group member suggests "everyone rolls on everything (BoP excluded)" instead, then would you think they were being discourteous? If you are greeting someone and extend your hand to shake theirs, but they bow instead, would you think they were being discourteous? Both approaches have pros and cons and will likely be applied by different groups in different situations. I am honestly curious as to what this community will grow to accept.
SoWplz said: But I ran into plenty of casters who would join frenzy group, then think they should roll for the FBSS after I have been there for 18 hours straight. Sure they have a right to roll on it, they also have a right to put me on ignore liat after I send them tells with words my mother didnt know I used. But really NBG is a common curtisie if you dont abide by it, thats just a d*** move I think. I join a group for xp and good times, not to take loot I can not use for that character.
Well that's part of the issue with NBG. People in the world aren't altruistic and generally I don't feel I can trust some random person who may or may not have been there for 18 hours and who may or may not actually need the item. It's incredibly simple to unequip a FBSS you already own and toss it on an alt (or leave it on one of your corpses) and jump into a group claiming you need that item worth 7k.
Iksar said:SoWplz said: But I ran into plenty of casters who would join frenzy group, then think they should roll for the FBSS after I have been there for 18 hours straight. Sure they have a right to roll on it, they also have a right to put me on ignore liat after I send them tells with words my mother didnt know I used. But really NBG is a common curtisie if you dont abide by it, thats just a d*** move I think. I join a group for xp and good times, not to take loot I can not use for that character.
Well that's part of the issue with NBG. People in the world aren't altruistic and generally I don't feel I can trust some random person who may or may not have been there for 18 hours and who may or may not actually need the item. It's incredibly simple to unequip a FBSS you already own and toss it on an alt (or leave it on one of your corpses) and jump into a group claiming you need that item worth 7k.
Gotta agree with Iksar here. I realize it's one helluva cynical view of the world, but that doesn't necessarily make it less true.
There's also the skewed idealogy behind Need rolls Vs. Greed Rolls.
Say the FBSS drops and I currently have a Thick Banded Belt. FBSS is an upgrade for my character, so I roll "Need" on the FBSS and win. I unequip the Thick Banded Belt, equip the FBSS, and then sell the Thick Banded Belt for 3k at the EC Tunnel. Not only did I just get an upgrade (a legitimate need), but I also made 3k plat by selling what it replaced (which is, by definition of the rolling rules, greed).
Say the FBSS drops and everybody decides to roll Greed, and Iksar wins. It's not an upgrade for Iksar, so he goes to the EC tunnel, sells it for 7k, and uses those proceeds to buy an upgrade to another piece he's wearing.
Since I sold my old piece that the FBSS replaced, does that make my roll greed instead of need? Since Iksar sold the FBSS and got an upgrade on another item, does that make his roll need instead of greed? I think you could answer both yes, and no, to both of those questions. Which, incidentally, kinda negates the need to differentiate between the two kinds of rolls. They're BOTH need rolls and they're BOTH greed rolls - so why not everyone just roll?
The only way to make a Need roll a "true need roll", is I were to let everyone else in the group roll for the Thick Banded Belt that I just replaced with the FBSS.
I say this as someone who, for the longest time, was just as ardent about the whole NBG loot rules as many here. If it was an upgrade, you need. If it's not, you greed. It seemed simple to me - but really, it's actually not a very fair playing field for anyone.
This thread has made me sad lol. When someone in a group I am in purposefully and knowingly rolls on something they can't use in the face of another player who is working to try and get that particular piece of loot and it is finally right in front of him and that someone else buggers of with it to sell it in the name of fairness... It will be very saddening
Hokanu said:This thread has made me sad lol. When someone in a group I am in purposefully and knowingly rolls on something they can't use in the face of another player who is working to try and get that particular piece of loot and it is finally right in front of him and that someone else buggers of with it to sell it in the name of fairness... It will be very saddening
Yes it is sad, I used to think that P.U.G. ( pickup groups) were pretty untrustworthy...but I am getting the impression from this thread...this me me me..stuff has spread to the current generation of gamers. I will let them squabble and cheat each other...I refuse to play with those types, will stick with my guild members and friends. I play for fun and laughs..not squabbling over pixels...that kind of behaviour to me, is unevolved, and not worth my time or notice. I'll keep helping people where I can, those that prefer to fight over everything, cheat others..and generally be obnoxious, won't be welcome in my groups, and no worries, your reputation WILL precede you. :) #CommunityMatters.
Cana
Sarim said:...IMO the important point is that the system removes the tediousness of having to walk up to any single corpse to loot (if you even can do that, think of mobs stuck in walls etc). This really is a QoL feature for me.
That's exacly what I think we need to have to do. Look, if you are fighting a group of enemies, you should have to go rifle around their bodies while picking stuff up. And doing it in the heat of battle with other enemies around is more immersive and challenging and where the corpse lands is something you have to plan for.
Standing across a river and shooting a bear with a bow and having the bearskin magically pop into your backpack is so immersion-breaking it is an example of the worst thing that ruined MMORPGS in the first place.
The bear should fall over dead and whoops you killed it far away, now you have to brave the river sneak past his friends and try to get your reward.
QoL is a common phrase that I think created this whole dumbed down insta click insta travel insta combat insta quest insta win insta max level situation that ruined the MMORPG genre, as a whole
Nice Tralyan, that's what I've been trying to explain since the start, even nice players with good intentions can subconciously make decisions that favor themselves. An example is Player1 being leader and uses plate, he has 1 more spot in the party to fill, a cloth user and another plate user PM'ed him to party up, he incidentally chooses the cloth user which also incidentally favors him and secures any plate he can use when they drop since it's an NBG party.
Don't get me wrong, I love partying with new players and making new friends along the way, finding other skilled players, learning and playing the game together. In fact, I've met some very good friends and some of them even became my real life friends. My point is in an environment with new players, it's never a bad choice to share loot equally based on RNG(tradeable items of course), this is the same in real life, maybe you're playing basketball with a stranger, you both see a $100 bill on the floor, would you just give it to him because he has a hole in his t-shirt and he said he needed it?
Not playing NBG does not automatically make it greed. Greed can find its way to any type of party no matter what loot method is used.