Brooks said:Shadowbound said:Coin weight is good, it promotes the utilization of banks, which in turn promotes the utilization of capital cities (or areas that host bankers), which in turn will lead to areas that people congregate, which will lead to socialization, which in turn will lead to a community-based game, which is what Pantheon is aiming for.
Granted, this is just one component of creating scenarios where people socialize / interact, but it's a significant one.
Maybe that tunnel became such a magnet for trade because of the close proximity to banks for good & evil races?
No coin weight is good because it promotes playing and adventuring with friends. Is this game about playing with friends, or running to the bank? Socializing can be harmed with coin weight. When playing people will be making runs back, breaking up their play, not to then sit in town and socialize. There will be plenty of trade hubs and reasons for using cities other than having to break up playing with friends to run back and dump gold in the bank.
No, forcing you to break the relentless XP grind to do something other than move from one camp, to another, promotes interaction with others that you would not normally be exposed to. If you cannot see that, then I don't know what to tell you. With weightless coins and loot as a rareity compared to current / recent MMOs, cities would end up ghost towns, even early on.
I love how people think they're going to log-in to the game, only to find themselves absolutely loaded with cash, having to run to the bank every 30 minutes. It's the same mindset of the people that think a LAS means they need to change their spells every mob that's pulled, ugh.
The instant gratification, goldfish attention span is just painful.
Maybe, just maybe, you dump your cash in the bank before you go adventuring? A little preparation, much like the limitations on spells in the LAS, having to think ahead, not zombie through the game.
My take on coin weight- they hired an economist.
I think the decision to make coin have weight is predicated on the knowledge gleaned/advised from the economist and as such, determined not to be an encumberance (pardon the pun) to game play.
I'm assuming the monsters will not drop that much coin, that coin will be rare, or miniscule. Even with 5 currencies, the larger currency will be used mostly for transport or long trips to then be broken down at a bank to make it more useable. The amopunt of coin dropped will not be prolific, the amount of armor dropped will not be universally tradeable, but instead character useable, forcing people to [play the game as intended and not become merchants.
I also had a thought prevoiously that coin might be used in crafting as a way to curb inflation, using coin to smelt to ingots to hammer into blades or, if you have the ratios correct, can take 10 copper and 5 silver smelted to make 1 nickel ingot or something 20 copper and 10 gold for brass ingot.
Trasak said:Zorkon said:Trasak said:Iksar said:Used to be against it, in this very thread even. Upon reflection I like it, glad it will return.
Hopefully somewhat balanced between all classes. If a caster can carry 70 lbs and a warrior can carry 150 lbs then I hope the full weight of the equipped items for the warrior is 80ish lbs while the caster is maybe 5ish lbs.
That is another good point Iksar. Its not as much the difference in maximum strength but rather the amount of loot one can pick up in addition to standard gear for that class without becoming encumbered. For all we know the plate classes might have the least available carry capacity and may always technically be encumbered but do not suffer a significant penalty for it.
Monks wearing cloth or leather and actually aiming for strength could leave them will a fair amount of carry capacity before becoming encumbered. EQ monks had it rough because it was a flat max weight rather than a function of strength.
No, EQ was absoulutly a function of strength. Strength buff an imobal incumberd player and they could move again. this was a common practice.
Was referring to the monk weight limit. Started at 10 max weight and I think climbed to the 20s in PoP eara. If you went over that limit your special monk AC plummeted. If it had been 15% of strength instead it would have given monks a lot more freedom to loot while leveling. A monk basically had to get a 100% wr bag before they could loot while leveling.
And even those 100% weight reduction bags had weight themselves, so the monk had to plan for how many bags they took depending on how much they expected to loot! (Which was of course impossible). It was a total PITA and a nonsense.
Monks couldn't carry a bag of coins without their dodging being radically effected, but even a low strength mage could carry a full set of captured plate armor, a few looted 6 foot spears and several bags of coins without hindering their spell casting...
Sorry, but having coin weight and *not* having all the other obvious encumbrance 'realities' included is just 'off'. And having all those other encumbrance aspects would make it tedious and annoying for everyone without a major rethink of the entire concept, which is just over-the-top and unnecessary.
Make coin weight scale with the strength of the character. This way lower strength classes are not penalized. If this isn't done, then high strength classes need to be penalized in some other way to bring the classes back into balance. Higher strength classes can still have their strength advantage in regards to other encumbrance scenarios, the advantage just shouldn't apply to coin.
I am not saying this to be biased based on the class I want to play, as I have no idea what that will be, I just want balanced classes.
Edit: Space formatting.
disposalist said: ... And even those 100% weight reduction bags had weight themselves, so the monk had to plan for how many bags they took depending on how much they expected to loot! (Which was of course impossible). It was a total PITA and a nonsense....
Sorry, but having coin weight and *not* having all the other obvious encumbrance 'realities' included is just 'off'. And having all those other encumbrance aspects would make it tedious and annoying for everyone without a major rethink of the entire concept, which is just over-the-top and unnecessary.
As I read this thread the coin pro-weight side has made a variety of points regarding benefit:
And I've seen the no-weight side (of which I am a member) make other points:
Did I miss anything crucial?
I'd be curious as to why Joppa changed his mind on this, does anyone know? Has he said why?
Oldwargoat39 said:So like the old AD&D coin system where they had electrum, but those coins were rare (like a US 2 dollar bill rare) and even more rarely used. Elecrtum was used mainly by merchants and traiders in D&D to move currency around without having loads of gold and/or silver for bandits to target them as the coins themselves where useless, so when they got to there destination they would take it to a local currency exchange place and convert it to proper full coins and the electrum would be melt down, seperated and reforged into actual coins again, as best of my memory.
Yes, it was used in D&D like the other coin metal types. Though, electrum is a real metal composed of silver and gold.
However, thinking about this more I think Joppa wants the 5th currency to be something that would allow players that are buying items worth thousands of platinum (or more) to have access to a lightweight coin to make transactions easier, so I suppose the 5th currency would be something that may be a 1000->1 scale.
But in EQ, the issue with carrying around a lot of platinum was that the 10->1 scale meant that players quickly racked up lot of plat so that was the primary currency. If you think about it, with all things being equal, item in EQ that sold for 100,000 plat would only be 1,000 plat in Pantheon. 1,000 plat is not going to encumber you down where 100,000 would. So is a 5th currency needed? Maybe someday but perhaps not at launch.
It really circles back to my original comment about how the money comes into the world. If level 10 NPC's are dropping dozens of silver pieces or even gold, then that's really going to through the economy out of whack in Pantheon because you are negating the potential for using more lower denominations. On a 100->1 scale they could use copper pieces for a much wider range of goods than you could in EQ. That means copper can stay relevant much longer as long as it's designed from the bottom up that way
I think all the monk mains ITT need to relax and wait until VR annouces how Monks will handle weight restrictions... if they even have them at all, they said in the stream they were aware and looking at that part of gameplay, they aren't just going to leave Monks out to dry this is not P99 and the game wont be called Everquest.
My comments added in red (from the View of one that plays casters almost exclusively)
Nagasakee said:As I read this thread the coin pro-weight side has made a variety of points regarding benefit:
- Its "realistic" (it adds all kinds of oppotunity for player interaction and emersive behaviour)
- It promotes playing with friends (it promots playing with OTHERS, making new friends)
- It doesn't hurt their chosen class, and several other classes (it adds flavor to all the classes, expecially Monk)
- It promotes the banking system (yes, populating the otherwise barren Cities)
- It promotes people helping each other when they get encumbered (strength buffs, SoW etc) (yes, coin exchange, working together.. thinking of the origanal j-boot quest here)
And I've seen the no-weight side (of which I am a member) make other points:
- It causes encumbrance which while sometimes funny, is not a pleasant game experience (IS a pleasant World experiance to know you are loaded up, Had a good day)
- When encumbered, if there is no one there to assist, you have to destroy items or coin, (Or be creative on how to do it without destroying it, MANY have been listed). hurting classes that are not high strength, . especially casters (Or Rewarding classes that are High streangth that don't get things like Gate and Teleports etc). This will hurt casters (I played a caster exclusively in EQ... was never a big problem) and monks (who in a World pretty much unaversally swarn to a life of Asceticism) over time as they may not be able to collect items and coin at the same rate as other classes.
- When adventuring in a group players may have to leave "early" to bank (or drop the Copper... just how much will be collected in a 2 hour play session?). This applies to solo play too.
- The weight penalty is annoying but dramatically effects the gameplay of only ONE class: the Monk, (who in a World pretty much unaversally all religions has swarn to a life of Asceticism and has no use for material items) who loses AC as they exceed the weight limit. (based upon EQ monks mainly)
Did I miss anything crucial? (I don't think so, just that there are differing views to a lot of what you said)
I'd be curious as to why Joppa changed his mind on this, does anyone know? Has he said why? (yes, he said in the stream)
It's all a matter of how you look at each of those Items,
This Monk argument is Null in my eyes, Monks ALL monks of any religon, race, era, have one thing in common... they swear to a life of poverty. And yet they are here in this GAME complaning they can't keep thier riches... I can't belive they all just choose to ignore that and not even address it. If you're not willing to accept that, DON'T play a Monk. Now I feel VR should also accomidate this as Skills, Quest, Gear all for a Monk should be litterely Free, Drops for even BIS should be pleantaful, Epic Quest should be the easiest (or at least cheapist) in the game, the whole class should be built with a life of poverty in mind. THAT IS A MONK
People also ingnoring this two hour play window. (when it's convenant) you really think a Caster will be incumbered in two hours... I hope so, that would be a rocking play session.
Many keep saying "Some classes are Penalized" Bah!!! Some are Rewarded. Glass half full or half empty, how you want to look at it apperantly depends on if your pro or con coin weight. Take the early Warrior in EQ as example can't heal, can't gate , can't buff, got no run speed, what a pathetic class... But never needs to buy spells or spend $$ on much of anything. In late EQ I just started Boxing a Shaman and a Warrior... same hours played, same level, same zones, always grouped together.. they each pay there own way.... lvl 50 and the Shaman (never had to drop anything for incumbrance) has less than $3k and wearing only what has dropped. That friggin Warrior even after buying all the level appropriat plate and weapons for all schools at the Bazaar still has $12k
The caster isnt's penalized, the Melee is rewarded
Make coinage great again VR!! Oh, that's right ... you already have by announcing : after careful thought and consideration you've changed your mind and coin will now have weight. I'm starting to think everyone here that is arguing against coin weight has never even played a game where coins have weight and / or have never been social at all? Literally all you would have to do if you were grouping is ask someone in your party (that has high weight tolerance and won't care) if they will exchange your 3400 copper for 34 gold. That's it folks, that's how simply you tackle this "problem". On the off chance that no one in your group is willing to help you out at all (which is so highly unlikely), you simply ask the dude sitting at the zone in that is lfg and has nothing better to do if he will exchange said currency for you for a price of say 1 gold. He makes a little cash you get your weight down, everyone is happy. You may even make friend with this person doing you this small favor... They may even invite you to group with them the next time you log on, omg how amazing would that be? Oh promoting socialization is a beautiful thing. Enough said great job VR keep up the good work, can lock this thread now.
Zorkon said:My comments added in red (from the View of one that plays casters almost exclusively)
Nagasakee said:As I read this thread the coin pro-weight side has made a variety of points regarding benefit:
- Its "realistic" (it adds all kinds of oppotunity for player interaction and emersive behaviour)
- It promotes playing with friends (it promots playing with OTHERS, making new friends)
- It doesn't hurt their chosen class, and several other classes (it adds flavor to all the classes, expecially Monk)
- It promotes the banking system (yes, populating the otherwise barren Cities)
- It promotes people helping each other when they get encumbered (strength buffs, SoW etc) (yes, coin exchange, working together.. thinking of the origanal j-boot quest here)
And I've seen the no-weight side (of which I am a member) make other points:
- It causes encumbrance which while sometimes funny, is not a pleasant game experience (IS a pleasant World experiance to know you are loaded up, Had a good day)
- When encumbered, if there is no one there to assist, you have to destroy items or coin, (Or be creative on how to do it without destroying it, MANY have been listed). hurting classes that are not high strength, . especially casters (Or Rewarding classes that are High streangth that don't get things like Gate and Teleports etc). This will hurt casters (I played a caster exclusively in EQ... was never a big problem) and monks (who in a World pretty much unaversally swarn to a life of Asceticism) over time as they may not be able to collect items and coin at the same rate as other classes.
- When adventuring in a group players may have to leave "early" to bank (or drop the Copper... just how much will be collected in a 2 hour play session?). This applies to solo play too.
- The weight penalty is annoying but dramatically effects the gameplay of only ONE class: the Monk, (who in a World pretty much unaversally all religions has swarn to a life of Asceticism and has no use for material items) who loses AC as they exceed the weight limit. (based upon EQ monks mainly)
Did I miss anything crucial? (I don't think so, just that there are differing views to a lot of what you said)
I'd be curious as to why Joppa changed his mind on this, does anyone know? Has he said why? (yes, he said in the stream)
It's all a matter of how you look at each of those Items,
This Monk argument is Null in my eyes, Monks ALL monks of any religon, race, era, have one thing in common... they swear to a life of poverty. And yet they are here in this GAME complaning they can't keep thier riches... I can't belive they all just choose to ignore that and not even address it. If you're not willing to accept that, DON'T play a Monk. Now I feel VR should also accomidate this as Skills, Quest, Gear all for a Monk should be litterely Free, Drops for even BIS should be pleantaful, Epic Quest should be the easiest (or at least cheapist) in the game, the whole class should be built with a life of poverty in mind. THAT IS A MONK
People also ingnoring this two hour play window. (when it's convenant) you really think a Caster will be incumbered in two hours... I hope so, that would be a rocking play session.
Many keep saying "Some classes are Penalized" Bah!!! Some are Rewarded. Glass half full or half empty, how you want to look at it apperantly depends on if your pro or con coin weight. Take the early Warrior in EQ as example can't heal, can't gate , can't buff, got no run speed, what a pathetic class... But never needs to buy spells or spend $$ on much of anything. In late EQ I just started Boxing a Shaman and a Warrior... same hours played, same level, same zones, always grouped together.. they each pay there own way.... lvl 50 and the Shaman (never had to drop anything for incumbrance) has less than $3k and wearing only what has dropped. That friggin Warrior even after buying all the level appropriat plate and weapons for all schools at the Bazaar still has $12k
The caster isnt's penalized, the Melee is rewarded
You know, this is a GAME right? A game people use to ESCAPE reality. If people wanted reality, they would never play a game ever and they would continue to live in real life to experience it. I already stated here that if you want reality, then coins should have no weight, as everyone these days has plastic cards that hold millions. That's indicative to real life, right? Any healing done should give you a very high chance to kill you, because medicine in this type of time frame was nothing more than brewed teas and pastes that had next to nothing in terms of healing. Disinfecting a wound with anything only gave a person a small chance to recover, most times the person became septic and died. The church claimed that they could heal anything and it was nothing more than placebos, pastes and essential oils, which still did next to nothing and for the service you had to pay exuberant amounts towards the church or buy numerous indulgences.
Not one of these classes should exist outside of the monk, and none of these races should exist either. Most of these are based off of delusions of weary travellers, sailors that had nothing better to go and were sick with a numerous assortment of ailments at sea, or created in the minds of children or gullible people. Humans should be the only thing that exists in this world, as they are the only REAL thing in reality, right? Spellcasters of any sort should be put to death because it's against any religion to be able to do so; I mean, Salem is a great example of this. Salem wasn't the only place to have witch trials like it either. Most of the world had things like that and still do.
Here, how about this. women can ONLY be spellcasters not including cleric because women were not allowed to be apart of the clergy in this type of era. Nuns were to clean the church grounds and that was it, even then they weren't allowed into the church or on holy grounds during certain times of the month. Women that got into seats in the clergy by portraying themselves as men, when found out were executed for it. Women were given full clergy rights near 1900, give or take a decade or two, I can't honestly remember. Women weren't allowed anywhere on this type of adventuring, as they were traded as property, so IF a female character is adventuring in a group, technically she could be called the group whore or she was going against laws of being at home and running away from her owners. Women don't have the same body structure to be able to handle the place of a warrior or paladin as a man does, nor do they have the same bosy structure as a man to be able to handle the ability needed to perform the feats a monk does even. Rogues believe it or not need to be able to do things that, again, a woman's body just can't do because of structure issues. Sure, you could say that stealth and that are better for women because of their weight differences, but that's about it, they can't do much else. Same with people of other races. People that aren't anything outside of human in this case should be looked at as nothing more than the dirt on the road you walk on and should be treated as slaves and vermin. That's from reality right?
Cities were dirty and covered in animal droppings and the contents of chamber pots. They also had people digging through said crap for items that could be sold as value for the person that actually owned that section of the city to clean. There were no house bathrooms, no running water, so people had to get water from nearby waterways that were usually contaminated, either directly or indirectly. There were public bathrooms and they only got emptied once at night. So then, why doesn't your character have to use the bathroom or bathe while out adventuring? That's in reality isn't it? Granted, bathing wasn't all that great and they mainly washed surface dirt off and rubbed sand and dirt in their hair to get the grease out, but they still tried to stay clean and used the bathroom, so how about adding that in then, again you want a world, not a game right? Death is another thing as well, when you die, that's it; you and your gear are gone. There is no resurrection, there is no being brought back. You get taken back to an empty character screen and you have to start all over again. The cleric can only do so much with pastes and essential oils anyway.
Horses were a huge thing back then, massive, as it was the only way to get from one place to another for a lot of people. It was rare that people didn't have a horse or mount, as horses were used to plough fields and drag carts around the homestead. Anyone that DIDN'T have a horse was homesless and broke. How do you expect to get items around from city to city, which let's face it, barely anyone lived in cities if they could avoid it because of the disease and sewage they had all over the place. So having a city nearly barren was actually a reality.
My point is, you, and the people like you want this to be a world and not a game, but you only want the realities that make things convenient for you and that you think should be in this pseudo reality. You all tend to turn a blind eye to things that don't suit what you want in a reality. Glass half empty, glass half full I suppose, but at the end of it all, this world is just that A GAME, it's not a reality, it's not an alternative reality either; it's a game. you want to roleplay, fine; but to trying to make this game as real as possible and only with the things that are convenient and appropriate for you is just being disingenuous to wanting the game to be more than just a game. You want a world, you had better want everything that comes with said world. Now, I know you will sit here and tell me some story of , well I know it's a game, or well not everything from reality has to come into play here, but then, you are being hypocritical. You want a world, then everything that comes with it you should be for, whether or not you like it or not. You want the monk to be exactly like the monk from real life, so why not anything else that comes along with a world and the reality for that monk, which isn't all that glamorous? Why not the dark reality for any spell caster that is, if caught, it's death? At the end of the day, no matter how pretty and detailed the world is, no matter how intricate they make the people and cities; it's a game. You still have to log off, the people aren't real, the trees aren't real, the grass isn't real, none of it is real. To argue that only some things should be as real as possible, but never look to reality to see if it's actually a real thing or not; that's just being disingenuous. Again, I know that I'm going to get the simple argument of, "but it doesn't pertain to this" or " not everything from life HAS to be here" but why then? Why ask for anything to be as real as possible then if none of the other stuff matters? It's a game, why have it simulate ANYTHING from real life? You can say I'm being hyperbolic all you want, you can brush it off and walk away from what I'm saying; you can even sit there and tell me that it doesn't apply, but my question is why? Why does NONE of this apply, but why does how a monk live in real life apply? Why does the coin weight apply? I know what answers I'll get and I'll be surprised if I get anything outside of the same three I see here as counter arguments. None of the reasons are valid that I have seen as to why coin weight should be a thing, it can be generally sumed up into "because I want it" or " because EQ had it"
OCastitatisLilium said:Zorkon said:My comments added in red (from the View of one that plays casters almost exclusively)
Nagasakee said:As I read this thread the coin pro-weight side has made a variety of points regarding benefit:
- Its "realistic" (it adds all kinds of oppotunity for player interaction and emersive behaviour)
- It promotes playing with friends (it promots playing with OTHERS, making new friends)
- It doesn't hurt their chosen class, and several other classes (it adds flavor to all the classes, expecially Monk)
- It promotes the banking system (yes, populating the otherwise barren Cities)
- It promotes people helping each other when they get encumbered (strength buffs, SoW etc) (yes, coin exchange, working together.. thinking of the origanal j-boot quest here)
And I've seen the no-weight side (of which I am a member) make other point
- It causes encumbrance which while sometimes funny, is not a pleasant game experience (IS a pleasant World experiance to know you are loaded up, Had a good day)
- When encumbered, if there is no one there to assist, you have to destroy items or coin, (Or be creative on how to do it without destroying it, MANY have been listed). hurting classes that are not high strength, . especially casters (Or Rewarding classes that are High streangth that don't get things like Gate and Teleports etc). This will hurt casters (I played a caster exclusively in EQ... was never a big problem) and monks (who in a World pretty much unaversally swarn to a life of Asceticism) over time as they may not be able to collect items and coin at the same rate as other classes.
- When adventuring in a group players may have to leave "early" to bank (or drop the Copper... just how much will be collected in a 2 hour play session?). This applies to solo play too.
- The weight penalty is annoying but dramatically effects the gameplay of only ONE class: the Monk, (who in a World pretty much unaversally all religions has swarn to a life of Asceticism and has no use for material items) who loses AC as they exceed the weight limit. (based upon EQ monks mainly)
Did I miss anything crucial? (I don't think so, just that there are differing views to a lot of what you said)
I'd be curious as to why Joppa changed his mind on this, does anyone know? Has he said why? (yes, he said in the stream)
It's all a matter of how you look at each of those Items,
This Monk argument is Null in my eyes, Monks ALL monks of any religon, race, era, have one thing in common... they swear to a life of poverty. And yet they are here in this GAME complaning they can't keep thier riches... I can't belive they all just choose to ignore that and not even address it. If you're not willing to accept that, DON'T play a Monk. Now I feel VR should also accomidate this as Skills, Quest, Gear all for a Monk should be litterely Free, Drops for even BIS should be pleantaful, Epic Quest should be the easiest (or at least cheapist) in the game, the whole class should be built with a life of poverty in mind. THAT IS A MONK
People also ingnoring this two hour play window. (when it's convenant) you really think a Caster will be incumbered in two hours... I hope so, that would be a rocking play session.
Many keep saying "Some classes are Penalized" Bah!!! Some are Rewarded. Glass half full or half empty, how you want to look at it apperantly depends on if your pro or con coin weight. Take the early Warrior in EQ as example can't heal, can't gate , can't buff, got no run speed, what a pathetic class... But never needs to buy spells or spend $$ on much of anything. In late EQ I just started Boxing a Shaman and a Warrior... same hours played, same level, same zones, always grouped together.. they each pay there own way.... lvl 50 and the Shaman (never had to drop anything for incumbrance) has less than $3k and wearing only what has dropped. That friggin Warrior even after buying all the level appropriat plate and weapons for all schools at the Bazaar still has $12k
The caster isnt's penalized, the Melee is rewarded
You know, this is a GAME right? A game people use to ESCAPE reality. If people wanted reality, they would never play a game ever and they would continue to live in real life to experience it. I already stated here that if you want reality, then coins should have no weight, as everyone these days has plastic cards that hold millions. That's indicative to real life, right? Any healing done should give you a very high chance to kill you, because medicine in this type of time frame was nothing more than brewed teas and pastes that had next to nothing in terms of healing. Disinfecting a wound with anything only gave a person a small chance to recover, most times the person became septic and died. The church claimed that they could heal anything and it was nothing more than placebos, pastes and essential oils, which still did next to nothing and for the service you had to pay exuberant amounts towards the church or buy numerous indulgences.
Not one of these classes should exist outside of the monk, and none of these races should exist either. Most of these are based off of delusions of weary travellers, sailors that had nothing better to go and were sick with a numerous assortment of ailments at sea, or created in the minds of children or gullible people. Humans should be the only thing that exists in this world, as they are the only REAL thing in reality, right? Spellcasters of any sort should be put to death because it's against any religion to be able to do so; I mean, Salem is a great example of this. Salem wasn't the only place to have witch trials like it either. Most of the world had things like that and still do.
Here, how about this. women can ONLY be spellcasters not including cleric because women were not allowed to be apart of the clergy in this type of era. Nuns were to clean the church grounds and that was it, even then they weren't allowed into the church or on holy grounds during certain times of the month. Women that got into seats in the clergy by portraying themselves as men, when found out were executed for it. Women were given full clergy rights near 1900, give or take a decade or two, I can't honestly remember. Women weren't allowed anywhere on this type of adventuring, as they were traded as property, so IF a female character is adventuring in a group, technically she could be called the group whore or she was going against laws of being at home and running away from her owners. Women don't have the same body structure to be able to handle the place of a warrior or paladin as a man does, nor do they have the same bosy structure as a man to be able to handle the ability needed to perform the feats a monk does even. Rogues believe it or not need to be able to do things that, again, a woman's body just can't do because of structure issues. Sure, you could say that stealth and that are better for women because of their weight differences, but that's about it, they can't do much else. Same with people of other races. People that aren't anything outside of human in this case should be looked at as nothing more than the dirt on the road you walk on and should be treated as slaves and vermin. That's from reality right?
Cities were dirty and covered in animal droppings and the contents of chamber pots. They also had people digging through said crap for items that could be sold as value for the person that actually owned that section of the city to clean. There were no house bathrooms, no running water, so people had to get water from nearby waterways that were usually contaminated, either directly or indirectly. There were public bathrooms and they only got emptied once at night. So then, why doesn't your character have to use the bathroom or bathe while out adventuring? That's in reality isn't it? Granted, bathing wasn't all that great and they mainly washed surface dirt off and rubbed sand and dirt in their hair to get the grease out, but they still tried to stay clean and used the bathroom, so how about adding that in then, again you want a world, not a game right? Death is another thing as well, when you die, that's it; you and your gear are gone. There is no resurrection, there is no being brought back. You get taken back to an empty character screen and you have to start all over again. The cleric can only do so much with pastes and essential oils anyway.
Horses were a huge thing back then, massive, as it was the only way to get from one place to another for a lot of people. It was rare that people didn't have a horse or mount, as horses were used to plough fields and drag carts around the homestead. Anyone that DIDN'T have a horse was homesless and broke. How do you expect to get items around from city to city, which let's face it, barely anyone lived in cities if they could avoid it because of the disease and sewage they had all over the place. So having a city nearly barren was actually a reality.
My point is, you, and the people like you want this to be a world and not a game, but you only want the realities that make things convenient for you and that you think should be in this pseudo reality. You all tend to turn a blind eye to things that don't suit what you want in a reality. Glass half empty, glass half full I suppose, but at the end of it all, this world is just that A GAME, it's not a reality, it's not an alternative reality either; it's a game. you want to roleplay, fine; but to trying to make this game as real as possible and only with the things that are convenient and appropriate for you is just being disingenuous to wanting the game to be more than just a game. You want a world, you had better want everything that comes with said world. Now, I know you will sit here and tell me some story of , well I know it's a game, or well not everything from reality has to come into play here, but then, you are being hypocritical. You want a world, then everything that comes with it you should be for, whether or not you like it or not. You want the monk to be exactly like the monk from real life, so why not anything else that comes along with a world and the reality for that monk, which isn't all that glamorous? Why not the dark reality for any spell caster that is, if caught, it's death? At the end of the day, no matter how pretty and detailed the world is, no matter how intricate they make the people and cities; it's a game. You still have to log off, the people aren't real, the trees aren't real, the grass isn't real, none of it is real. To argue that only some things should be as real as possible, but never look to reality to see if it's actually a real thing or not; that's just being disingenuous. Again, I know that I'm going to get the simple argument of, "but it doesn't pertain to this" or " not everything from life HAS to be here" but why then? Why ask for anything to be as real as possible then if none of the other stuff matters? It's a game, why have it simulate ANYTHING from real life? You can say I'm being hyperbolic all you want, you can brush it off and walk away from what I'm saying; you can even sit there and tell me that it doesn't apply, but my question is why? Why does NONE of this apply, but why does how a monk live in real life apply? Why does the coin weight apply? I know what answers I'll get and I'll be surprised if I get anything outside of the same three I see here as counter arguments. None of the reasons are valid that I have seen as to why coin weight should be a thing, it can be generally sumed up into "because I want it" or " because EQ had it"
You make vaild points , I agree . But Eq did have it right because if not so why after 20 years is it still going on ? Its not so much about real life as its about consequences . things matter , decisions matter /choices mattered ( meaning your class /race it mattered too ) . Most games it does noty matter ( you can do it all and be it all ) . can you in real life ? can you in certain games >? ( some games yes ) . but who cares realistic or not . its about intertainment . This is a niche game .. ( so happy for niche ) . Why does any game have to be just like another ? Or different ? . why can't we all just say Hey its a game we'd like to play based off of certain Tenients /gameplay/style so forth ? .. this Game was not for fast pased PTW/instant free gradification .. therefor they should stick to there guns .. to many games are easy win easy play ..
Coins matter , guess what even monks and casters can put points into strength .. melee wear metal so guess it weighs more :) casters wear cloth = less . think its a no brainer that The developers have it under control .
I see no issue with coin weight unless your under weight :P
Pss : geez should every class/race be the same ? I think not Stepford wife :) we all can excell just do it in different way .. the joy of being different :)
TLogan said:Make coinage great again VR!! Oh, that's right ... you already have by announcing : after careful thought and consideration you've changed your mind and coin will now have weight. I'm starting to think everyone here that is arguing against coin weight has never even played a game where coins have weight and / or have never been social at all? Literally all you would have to do if you were grouping is ask someone in your party (that has high weight tolerance and won't care) if they will exchange your 3400 copper for 34 gold. That's it folks, that's how simply you tackle this "problem". On the off chance that no one in your group is willing to help you out at all (which is so highly unlikely), you simply ask the dude sitting at the zone in that is lfg and has nothing better to do if he will exchange said currency for you for a price of say 1 gold. He makes a little cash you get your weight down, everyone is happy. You may even make friend with this person doing you this small favor... They may even invite you to group with them the next time you log on, omg how amazing would that be? Oh promoting socialization is a beautiful thing. Enough said great job VR keep up the good work, can lock this thread now.
I don't see why this is such a hard concept to understand for so many people.
OCastitatisLilium said:None of the reasons are valid that I have seen as to why coin weight should be a thing, it can be generally sumed up into "because I want it" or " because EQ had it"
I will rephrase your laste sentence to make it a bit more obvious here :
"None of the reasons I have seen as to why coin weight should be a thing can be valid, I sum them into "because I want it" or "because EQ had it".
There si simply no possibility to argue in this direction that you would consider valid because you are firmly against the idea with or without argumentation, would it be for the pro or for the against, that won't change and can't change. Better move on at this point because posting endless walls of text to hammer your opinion won't change a thing but ramp up your own anger.
... why can't we all just say Hey its a game we'd like to play based off of certain Tenients /gameplay/style so forth ?
This right here is why the dev's have SUCH a difficult job ahead. They have ideas and plans and when I read those ideas and plans I said "Wow, it's about time! A game that I can get into." The vast majority of the population will not like how difficult this game is going to be and I truly hope the devs stick to their guns on this.
I believe they will stick to their guns, which is why I decided to back the game. When I hear them speak about the game I can hear in their voice, their excitement, etc. that they love this project. There is passion for what they are creating and I hope it's not ruined by the masses.
Ranarius said:... why can't we all just say Hey its a game we'd like to play based off of certain Tenients /gameplay/style so forth ?
This right here is why the dev's have SUCH a difficult job ahead. They have ideas and plans and when I read those ideas and plans I said "Wow, it's about time! A game that I can get into." The vast majority of the population will not like how difficult this game is going to be and I truly hope the devs stick to their guns on this.
I believe they will stick to their guns, which is why I decided to back the game. When I hear them speak about the game I can hear in their voice, their excitement, etc. that they love this project. There is passion for what they are creating and I hope it's not ruined by the masses.
Biggest reason IMHO is different age groups /different playstyle , But in therein lies the problem . If VR sticks to thier goals /tenients/ promises .. I see no problem ( this is not a game for easy come easy go / PTW ) This is for longivity .. :):):) lets let them decide the true course of our adventure :)
Shea said:You make vaild points , I agree . But Eq did have it right because if not so why after 20 years is it still going on ? Its not so much about real life as its about consequences . things matter , decisions matter /choices mattered ( meaning your class /race it mattered too ) . Most games it does noty matter ( you can do it all and be it all ) . can you in real life ? can you in certain games >? ( some games yes ) . but who cares realistic or not . its about intertainment . This is a niche game .. ( so happy for niche ) . Why does any game have to be just like another ? Or different ? . why can't we all just say Hey its a game we'd like to play based off of certain Tenients /gameplay/style so forth ? .. this Game was not for fast pased PTW/instant free gradification .. therefor they should stick to there guns .. to many games are easy win easy play ..
Coins matter , guess what even monks and casters can put points into strength .. melee wear metal so guess it weighs more :) casters wear cloth = less . think its a no brainer that The developers have it under control .
I see no issue with coin weight unless your under weight :P
Pss : geez should every class/race be the same ? I think not Stepford wife :) we all can excell just do it in different way .. the joy of being different :)
EQ is still only around because people have put ungodly amounts of time and money into it, that they can't bring themselves to just stop playing. That's the only reason that there are still the people that play now. EQ is an addiction and the people that are playing now, will never play this game. They have put WAY too much into the characters and account that to just let it go and even run the risk of having it deleted, just leaves them feeling uneasy. Games iterate off of each other because they take the what the game did good and make them better, leaving the things that they could tell were old and outdated behind. They evolved and advanced, and are still doing it today, leaving the much disliked and outdated things behind. A lot of things are viewed with heavy nostalgia that are just outright outdated. No one wants to acknowledge that carrying around 10 bags with at least 100 pounds of gear is unrealistic either, but that's besides the point.
I never once said anything about classes needing to be the same, I like the idea of classes being different to a degree and that balance is a very fine wire to walk, so you can take that straw man down because I said nothing about that. I would also appreciate that you not call me a stepford wife, thanks, talk like an adult instead of throwing insults around.
Ranarius said:...I believe they will stick to their guns, which is why I decided to back the game. When I hear them speak about the game I can hear in their voice, their excitement, etc. that they love this project. There is passion for what they are creating and I hope it's not ruined by the masses.
I agree with pretty much all that you wrote here, though we must remember vis-a-vis your first sentence that they did not stick to their guns regarding coin weight. They said it wasn't in the game, then said it was.
I am still very hopeful that the Devs knwo what they are doing, and are making a different game than EQ...in EQ the weight thing was a penalty for some, (as Joppa indicated in the stream: especially for Monks) I hope they mitigate this somehow in PRotF, (autoconvert, quest?) and believe they will. They did a LOT in April, and I too am reenergized by the progress.
This post was edited by Nagasakee at May 2, 2020 1:31 PM PDT
last thing i will reply on this thread . we all are addicted to something whether gaming a certain game/food/booze/playing certain things /or even sex ...
I only infrequently play EQ but its still a great game even now :P
My sincere opologizes :) I was not calling you out on anything :) . simply stated what i wanted stated :) .. as for classes that was a pss afterthought on other things :)
PSS never in my lifetime have I heard of having your char deleted ? stil have a char from 1999 still exsists today yet never played it since 2005 .. seems odd to me perhaps send in a complaint to that :)
Brooks said:Shadowbound said:Coin weight is good, it promotes the utilization of banks, which in turn promotes the utilization of capital cities (or areas that host bankers), which in turn will lead to areas that people congregate, which will lead to socialization, which in turn will lead to a community-based game, which is what Pantheon is aiming for.
Granted, this is just one component of creating scenarios where people socialize / interact, but it's a significant one.
Maybe that tunnel became such a magnet for trade because of the close proximity to banks for good & evil races?
No coin weight is good because it promotes playing and adventuring with friends. Is this game about playing with friends, or running to the bank? Socializing can be harmed with coin weight. When playing people will be making runs back, breaking up their play, not to then sit in town and socialize. There will be plenty of trade hubs and reasons for using cities other than having to break up playing with friends to run back and dump gold in the bank.
Following your train of thought, instant porting anywhere in the world you want is good because it makes grouping with people faster. Using a "dungeon finder" that ports you immediately to a dungeon is also good because it helps people group up faster. I could go on but I think I made my point already. Modern MMO's have gone down the road you are suggesting where getting people into action as fast as possible is the primary focus, and most people are here because they cannot stand the way modern games are being designed. So why bring those elements into this game?
@Brooks - you should watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juR8h1htw5k
Zorkon said:My comments added in red (from the View of one that plays casters almost exclusively)
Nagasakee said:As I read this thread the coin pro-weight side has made a variety of points regarding benefit:
- Its "realistic" (it adds all kinds of oppotunity for player interaction and emersive behaviour)
- It promotes playing with friends (it promots playing with OTHERS, making new friends)
- It doesn't hurt their chosen class, and several other classes (it adds flavor to all the classes, expecially Monk)
- It promotes the banking system (yes, populating the otherwise barren Cities)
- It promotes people helping each other when they get encumbered (strength buffs, SoW etc) (yes, coin exchange, working together.. thinking of the origanal j-boot quest here)
And I've seen the no-weight side (of which I am a member) make other points:
- It causes encumbrance which while sometimes funny, is not a pleasant game experience (IS a pleasant World experiance to know you are loaded up, Had a good day)
- When encumbered, if there is no one there to assist, you have to destroy items or coin, (Or be creative on how to do it without destroying it, MANY have been listed). hurting classes that are not high strength, . especially casters (Or Rewarding classes that are High streangth that don't get things like Gate and Teleports etc). This will hurt casters (I played a caster exclusively in EQ... was never a big problem) and monks (who in a World pretty much unaversally swarn to a life of Asceticism) over time as they may not be able to collect items and coin at the same rate as other classes.
- When adventuring in a group players may have to leave "early" to bank (or drop the Copper... just how much will be collected in a 2 hour play session?). This applies to solo play too.
- The weight penalty is annoying but dramatically effects the gameplay of only ONE class: the Monk, (who in a World pretty much unaversally all religions has swarn to a life of Asceticism and has no use for material items) who loses AC as they exceed the weight limit. (based upon EQ monks mainly)
Did I miss anything crucial? (I don't think so, just that there are differing views to a lot of what you said)
I'd be curious as to why Joppa changed his mind on this, does anyone know? Has he said why? (yes, he said in the stream)
It's all a matter of how you look at each of those Items,
This Monk argument is Null in my eyes, Monks ALL monks of any religon, race, era, have one thing in common... they swear to a life of poverty. And yet they are here in this GAME complaning they can't keep thier riches... I can't belive they all just choose to ignore that and not even address it. If you're not willing to accept that, DON'T play a Monk. Now I feel VR should also accomidate this as Skills, Quest, Gear all for a Monk should be litterely Free, Drops for even BIS should be pleantaful, Epic Quest should be the easiest (or at least cheapist) in the game, the whole class should be built with a life of poverty in mind. THAT IS A MONK
People also ingnoring this two hour play window. (when it's convenant) you really think a Caster will be incumbered in two hours... I hope so, that would be a rocking play session.
Many keep saying "Some classes are Penalized" Bah!!! Some are Rewarded. Glass half full or half empty, how you want to look at it apperantly depends on if your pro or con coin weight. Take the early Warrior in EQ as example can't heal, can't gate , can't buff, got no run speed, what a pathetic class... But never needs to buy spells or spend $$ on much of anything. In late EQ I just started Boxing a Shaman and a Warrior... same hours played, same level, same zones, always grouped together.. they each pay there own way.... lvl 50 and the Shaman (never had to drop anything for incumbrance) has less than $3k and wearing only what has dropped. That friggin Warrior even after buying all the level appropriat plate and weapons for all schools at the Bazaar still has $12k
The caster isnt's penalized, the Melee is rewarded
I like to play a Ranger and a wizard...I'm just thinking along the lines of role playing weight of coins, and the feedback system doesnt have to be static...I mean that many tweaks could be added to balance it out if needed. As a wizard, I would want a spell book to make it magically lighter and as a Ranger/Rogue I want it to be quieter and not jingle around
excess coin could be dropped and or stolen in combat by mobs as characters exceeded certain weight limits to use more of a soft limit that doesn't force one to leave nor does it allow exchanging of cash trades (although this would require someone to help). Encumbrance multipliers can be modified as game issues arise. To a large degree, the method of implementation and any tweaks applied to fit the paradigm of Pantheon's world will set the feel and whether it's immersive enough to warrant the importance it's been given.
I think that if they're going to do it, don't do it halfway...put in the work to flesh out the concept and make the mechanics fun
I think I'm a bit lost here how are the melee classes getting rewarded over the catsers? Are we forgetting that their are spells that actually get modified by strength as well? So technically if you wanted to have a bit of strength on your caster you cana nd it also progress your character at the same time?
Look instead of simply just saying it can be this or it can be that, how about we simply accept it is going to be in the game and maybe instead theorycraft ways to accept it in our gameplay like i did with the mounts, fighting over features we think are bad and good does absolutely nothing, except cuase unesscary bickering and whining, accept it going to happen until they either change their mind or don't, the best you can do before that is come to accepting it, and either move forward or give ideas of how you think you make make it work.
But trying to "prove" each other wrong is honestly getting old at this point, they already knew people weren't going to like this decision just like they knew people weren't going to like it if it stayed the same, much like pretty much every hard decision they are going to have to make, its all part of coming to a decision and knowing they have to make one and than deal with the pros and cons of that decision, nothing is prefect nor should we except it to be, but we can at least give them ideas to maybe make something we don't like a little bit more tolerable.
Zorkon said:This Monk argument is Null in my eyes, Monks ALL monks of any religon, race, era, have one thing in common... they swear to a life of poverty. And yet they are here in this GAME complaning they can't keep thier riches... I can't belive they all just choose to ignore that and not even address it. If you're not willing to accept that, DON'T play a Monk. Now I feel VR should also accomidate this as Skills, Quest, Gear all for a Monk should be litterely Free, Drops for even BIS should be pleantaful, Epic Quest should be the easiest (or at least cheapist) in the game, the whole class should be built with a life of poverty in mind. THAT IS A MONK
You need to study monks a bit more before making these blanket statements. There are many religions and philosophies with monks that do not live by a vow of poverty. Visit some monasteries around the world. See the wealth.
Not to mention that Pantheon monks might not have aversion to material wealth.
